Squeezing the most out of the least. Dual Anarchy subwoofer discussion - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Gents

Here are some targets to take aim at.

It is acomparison between a decently optimised FLH and a decently optimised tapped horn. The Fs between the two can be matched if desired. But they are start points only.

The aim of this thread is to come up with something that there is a general consensus among the cognoscenti. There are a number of very knowledgable gents that can nudge this along if they so choose.

What's in it for you guys?

I'll build it and test it. When the specs matchup I'll post the napkin sketches I call shop drawings and anyone who is more skilled at sketchup than I can take a kick at the can for a drawing.

Depending where this leads there is one thing to be sure a bad ass subwoofer that is tailored to what most people want.

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post #2 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 10:52 AM
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First off we should agree on the driver parameters used.

The factory specs are here: http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=538

* Fs = 45.8HZ
* Qes = 0.48
* Qms = 6.37
* Qts = 0.44
* Vas = 9.61L
* Sd = 131cm^2
* Xmax = 12.5 mm one-way
* Re = 6.4 Ohms
* Le = 0.84 mH
* BL = 10.79 N/A
* Power: 125W Approx: No IEC testing conducted
* Spl = 84.7 dB/1W/1M

Does someone have a measured data set from a driver or two?
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post #3 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I must have punched in something wrong. I used the same source. So here are the two slightly modified to take advantage of the factory parameters without my typos.
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post #4 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 02:25 PM
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That seems like an awfully large box at 440 liters to only reach about 110ish db. My 8" tapped horn will reach slightly higher spl with only a 100 liter box. If you are willing to go with such a large enclosure you would be much better off starting with a 12" or 15" driver. Properly designed in a 400 liter enclosure you should be able to reach 120-125db with the larger driver.
The beauty of using the Anarchy is building slim cabinets. Once you decide to go wider you would be much better off with larger drivers.
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post #5 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


That seems like an awfully large box at 440 liters to only reach about 110ish db.

Thanks for the comment. Here is why the pics are there.

First off it is there for comparison purposes.

Second you can get to 110 db in room with 10 watts. Try that with your 8" sub!

The tapped horn example is much smaller. 67 litres. I have worked out a fold that uses up 3.14 cubic feet or 89 litres. Not that large.

So is that more usefull? The numbers posted are for 2Pi simulations. Anything inside a real room will do considerably better.

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post #6 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 02:50 PM
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Actually, tsloms does know what he is talking about.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1240371

Might be a good idea to do your homework before commenting.
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post #7 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 02:54 PM
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It's nice to see that your tapped horn is much smaller. That makes much more sense now.

I assume that you meant 110db from 100 watts which is what the sims look like. My 8" will put out just over 110db from the same 100 watts also in 2Pi but is also 99 liters before folding but with a $25 driver. Here is a link to my build. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1240371

I'm still shocked at the kind of output that can be reached using cheap, small drivers in slightly larger horn enclosures. Even the whopping $100 total build cost of mine for driver, amp, and wood will still beat anything that can be purchased at your local Best Buy. The only downside is that I enjoy mine so much that I haven't taken the time to finish the cab. I love the look of bare wood though.

I'm sure you will love the final result of yours!!
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post #8 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi tsloms

Thanks Mike for the heads up.

I'm not knocking or making light of anyone. I'm looking for input. I don't need this sub either. I have quite a few that are around. But the Anarchy is a great little driver and it does allow as tsloms pointed out a narrow cabinet.

I looked through the thread. Nice build. I tried using the info from your posted input screen and I can't get a decent response out of it. I'll fiddle with it a bit.

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post #9 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 03:21 PM
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i think a lot of diy folks are missing out on the performance of these horn subs because of the perceived build complexity.

maybe another angle could be to optimize performance in a very simple design. if you dumb it down to an 'ikea'-like, assemble with screws and glue-flatpack, there would be a lot of folks jump in.

just a random thought.

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post #10 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


i think a lot of diy folks are missing out on the performance of these horn subs because of the perceived build complexity.

maybe another angle could be to optimize performance in a very simple design. if you dumb it down to an 'ikea'-like, assemble with screws and glue-flatpack, there would be a lot of folks jump in.

Now that's a good point. Setup on the top and bottom plates is the hardest part. THe baffles on the interior are pretty much no brainers. Getting them in the correct positions is the hard part.

Usually the best way is to use a routed out dadoe in the correct shape and slap in the baffles. Once you have the top and bottom plates made up it is actually very easy.

More food for thought.

I'm trying to figure out what I have done wrong in the tapped horn spreadsheet to not get a proper diagram of the fold. soho54 where art thow!

I'm pretty sure someone is better at working with spreadsheets that I am.

I have an optimal fold it just doesn't show up properly.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/b362...wo_Anarchy.xls

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post #11 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 03:50 PM
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Pretty impressive Excel spreadsheet!!

I choose to do my folding in AutoCAD as I am very familiar with it. You could also fold in Sketchup for free. Sketchup is a very simple and easy to use program. Without Acad that is what I would use.

The DTS10 design is very nice and easy to assemble with it's dadoes. If using the PL Premium adhesive the dadoes are definitely not necessary for a strength standpoint. Making one or two subs I would think that the hassle of dadoes is not needed. However if CNC cutting these in large quantities then dadoes are a no brainer for consistent assembly.

These horns can look a bit intimidating but once they are laid out properly they are pretty easy to build. Cut out your 2 side panels slightly oversized and then all the internal panels can be ripped down to the same width. Cut these panels to length and let the assembly begin. So easy a caveman could do it!!

My sub only took about 2 hours to fully assemble after the boards were cut. The longest part was laying out the panels and drawing on the side panels in order to place the internal baffles properly. I also used a brad nailer which facilitates assembly. I live in WI and built mine in the winter so I actually assembled mine on my dining room table.
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post #12 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi tsloms

The spreadsheet is the brain child of Brian Steele. Not me. I'm a spreadsheet moron.

Good thinking using a brad nailer and PL Premium.

I've been a cabinetmaker for a long time. I did mostly furniture and wierd millwork jobs. Then I got into a whack load of renos. So laying out and building a cabinet will not take long.

I'm not so sure that this horn is optimised. I'm waiting for the verdict of the other gurus.

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post #13 of 437 Old 09-12-2010, 09:22 PM
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mwmkravchenko, hey man, you have some great experience. i'm glad to see you drop in on the avs fora. the range of knowledge around here varies widely...don't be discouraged if you get a few "less than ideal" replies to your questions. personally, i think that i could learn a lot from you. i look forward to your future posts...

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post #14 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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LTD02 you make me blush!

Yeah I've been around for a while.

No I do not know everything. In fact the more I understand the more I end up having more questions about. Never ending learning curve. But it is fun.

So how come no one is coming up with tweaks or criticisim? COme on the design is not that good. And the whole idea is to tweak it through peer review.

Any refinements?

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post #15 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 09:11 AM
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I haven't forgotten about this yet.

I had yard weekend, my little girls birthday, and another horn project to finish this weekend. Not enough time.

What kind to sub are we going for here? You should be able to get flat to 30Hz at 111dB in around 90l finished, or flat to 20Hz at ~106dB in ~100-110l finished. These are just estimates from a sheet I am working on, but they are usually pretty close.

If you want it as small as possible you could go 30hz in ~80l up to ~110dB.

For more output you have to go bigger.
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post #16 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Good to put first things first.

My take on optimal is this. Use a volume and a roll off contour that will couple with most locations to get you mostly flat to 20hz. Most rooms will give you around 6 db room gain at 20 hz. A basement will do better. If a design can be had that has a gracefull roll off knee at or around 30 hz we are laughing.

I chose the drivers because they let you make a very thin enclosure. As thin as 8 inches if you are a bit nuts. The design posted will get you to 110 but not quite as low as I'm shooting for.

Any tweeks will be worked through.

You have any idea why my spreadsheet posting will not give a proper graph?

Me and spread sheets never really get along. And I know soho54 that you are much less challenged on that front.

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post #17 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

You have any idea why my spreadsheet posting will not give a proper graph?

Me and spread sheets never really get along.

The graph is right, well what is shown of it.

The problem is that the graphing window is set, and any dimension over 76cm will not fit on it.

I would take the given numbers, and build an AkAbak model of the horn to check the FR out first though, as this sheet uses a "digitized" model. All the information is on the right, but it is a pain to find. There are plans for an AkAbak scrip maker to pull the info for you, but it hasn't gotten that far along yet.
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post #18 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I can export a AkaBak script from Hornresp. It is not hard at all.

What I'm finding when doing simulations and measurements of horns is that the two are pretty much the same in the results if you pay enough attention to the details in construction. Although AkaBak can better simulate folds in the actual design. If you have a handle on good fold construction you are not far off at any rate.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/b366b36/n/2anarchy.aks

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post #19 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:24 AM
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We are veering OT, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

I can export a AkaBak script from Hornresp. It is not hard at all.

What I'm finding when doing simulations and measurements of horns is that the two are pretty much the same in the results if you pay enough attention to the details in construction. Although AkaBak can better simulate folds in the actual design.

Exporting a HR model does no good here.

You build another model based off the actual build plans to check for anything you "may" have goofed on, and to double check the amount of acoustic path length you added with the bends. Most (not all) all of the THs on the internet do not match the sims, because the sims are wrong for the plans they came up with. A simple re-sim from the plans would have matched things up, but they all seemed to think it was an HR problem. They couldn't have mis-transposed somehow. If AkAbak was used it was that, plus the fact that they were using the program wrong.

That excel sheet makes things a little different, and if all is well you shouldn't have to really recheck, but it is still a WIP. As such there could be a bug or two in there. What's another 10min in sim land?
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post #20 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i think a lot of diy folks are missing out on the performance of these horn subs because of the perceived build complexity.

maybe another angle could be to optimize performance in a very simple design. if you dumb it down to an 'ikea'-like, assemble with screws and glue-flatpack, there would be a lot of folks jump in.

just a random thought.

Agreed on the first point, I put together tsolms TH sub about a weekend ago and couldn't believe how easy it was. The most difficult part of the cutting was the sides and those had to be done with a guide and circular saw. I actually thought it was a bit easier then my sealed builds as those typically have come up about 1/8 or 1/16" off some how.

Once the sides were done I just set the table saw to the width and ripped away. Since the sub is so narrow I could cut the rest of the pieces to length on miter saw.


This was the third horn sub I built and tsolms image was a bit easier to follow then the THT as he drew out the entire board and placement of it. Bill just draws one line and states that it is the exterior side or something to that extent.
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post #21 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I am agreeing with you about sims and real life horns.

Please note I have been doing this for quite a while. The last large scale horn I did I folded in Sim land for 6 months and in the here and know 7 times on the sheet goods before I commited to a build. I do carefully measure around the bends and take into account the horse sense I have gathered over the years as to what works and what doesn't. The last horn worked as simulated first shot. THe only problem I've had was a leak in the horn and back reactance anulling volume. Been fixed and it does measure as simmed.

And yes I did the namby pamby AkaBak export and checked it out in AkaBak. I'm not up to your speed on the AkaBak front. I use it as a sanity check.

Sometimes it's not exactly the tools but what you have come to know and expect from them that matters the most. I have done over half a dozen horns this year in Hornresp and I'm still in awe of it's ability to accurately simulate what comes out in the real world.

And it is a heck of a lot easier to work with then AkaBak!

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post #22 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Agreed on the first point, I put together tsolms TH sub about a weekend ago and couldn't believe how easy it was.

Hi stgdz

I've run the simms on his thread that he posted and heck if I know what is going on. But I don't get anything that resembles a flat reponse.

But I like those drivers alot. And maybe I'm just a bit thick on the details that were posted.

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post #23 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:54 AM
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I am not trying knock your experience here.

I would tell anyone to do as I have here. If you are using that sheet you need to check it's output somehow. The creator and I have many PMs back and forth about things that do not pop up in that thread. There are some issues with the different versions, that could muck things up.

The finished product will be awesome, but you want to check out what it gives you(and everyone reading) right now, as it is still a WIP.

If you are unfolding the excel horn, and then doing a duct to flare conversion to fit it back into HR, that would work too.

I'm just saying to double check the sheet, and for anyone else reading, double check your build plans (however you come up with them) by building a new sim from it.
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post #24 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

My take on optimal is this. Use a volume and a roll off contour that will couple with most locations to get you mostly flat to 20hz. Most rooms will give you around 6 db room gain at 20 hz. A basement will do better. If a design can be had that has a gracefull roll off knee at or around 30 hz we are laughing.

Are you saying you want to go for flat inroom here? Ok, can you give me the roll off characteristics you want. You have -6dB at 20Hz, so where do you want it to begin.
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post #25 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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The choir believes the preacher!

I to have had a few discussions with Mr. McBean. Very kind fellow.

Quote:


I'm just saying to double check the sheet, and for anyone else reading, double check your build plans (however you come up with them) by building a new sim from it.

That is exatly what I do. ANd is the only way to make sure that you are getting what you simmed.

So now that we are on the same page as to simms and methods of getting them into the real world. What about a more refined sim?

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post #26 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you saying you want to go for flat inroom here? Ok, can you give me the roll off characteristics you want. You have -6dB at 20Hz, so where do you want it to begin.

Around 30 hz makes sense for where the roll of starts.

I'll mess around with it abit.

We will meet somewhere in the middle i'm sure.

What would be most usefull is a maximum target size that people in general would want to see. From there we have options. THe simmed one up above is just over 3 cubic feet. Additional path length will allow the roll off effect. If we carefully optimise the path length on the beginning we get the biggest bang for the buck without huge penalty on the volume.

I'm working on a Klipsch corner type for a client right know but I'll mess with this a bit tonight.

Or maybe you'll beat me to it. soho54

Hey can I get your actual name? It is a bit mosre personal to actually address a dude by his name.

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post #27 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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I to have had a few discussions with Mr. McBean. Very kind fellow.

Hehe... I have (and agree) as well, but I meant the creator of the excel sheet.
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post #28 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Brian is a kind fellow to!

You have a background in programming? Cuz I have been reading through your AkaBak for dummies thread and I'm impressed. The only other dude I know who has an equal handle on that evil little program is in New Zealand. Don Hills is his name.

He does some double checks on other stuff I have posted on diyaudio. THe UNHORN chronicles. A bit of out of the box thinnin.

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post #29 of 437 Old 09-13-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i think a lot of diy folks are missing out on the performance of these horn subs because of the perceived build complexity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Agreed on the first point, I put together tsolms TH sub about a weekend ago and couldn't believe how easy it was. The most difficult part of the cutting was the sides and those had to be done with a guide and circular saw.

Right - though I've often said mine was the hardest project I'd ever put together, I would also have to say that it was 99.9% due to the sheer size of the thing, and not anything to do with it being a tapped horn. In many ways it was no harder than building the LLT. PL Premium is extremely forgiving - I made some huge cutting errors on some panels that led to some pretty big gaps - PL filled all of them.

The only joint I really had trouble with was the one where I was in a hurry and didn't get enough PL in there. But even that was easy to spot and fix before the last side panel went on.

Otherwise, it was just the usual measure three times, cut once type of deal; and just trying to lift all those big 18mm thick panels in place by myself. I didn't even bother with angle cuts on the inside panels - PL didn't mind filling the resulting gaps, so I didn't mind not bothering
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post #30 of 437 Old 09-15-2010, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Jeremey

Good to point out your practical experience in horn building. I have to agree that when confronted with slight angles I usually use some slight of hand tricks and tape hinges and things work out perfectly. And I thuroghly depend on the strength of PL Premium for boxes. I can attest to ot's ability to hold things together. It is tenacious with a capital "T". I've had playwood, MDF and OSB fail long before the glue joint seperated. In fact I have been airnailing and gluing all my boxes for the past couple of years with no failures. A quick and clean way to get them done. And finishing is much easier when your patching 18 guage nail noles compared to screww holes.

I'll post some pics showing what I mean about using tape hinges and such. It may prove to be usefull.

I will have some time today to work out the type of design I rambled on about a couple posts up.

Mark

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