Rythmik DS5010 End Table - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 09-15-2010, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Fertig!

So it's finished, got the whole thing together this evening and start to carry it into position and hear 'clank--clank', left the #@!'ing flashlight in there. So after a quick amp removal and re-install got it set next to the LFE cable (not final position) and gave her a whirl with some reggae vinyl. Nice and clean bass.

DS1510 vs DS1500 Driver side profile.


Driver cones, sadly that nice looking single piece cone is going to be facing the floor (DS1510 left).


Driver In (glued some 1/8" ~60 durometer rubber on for isolation and grip w/ a staple while the adhesive sets)


Amp In (the first time).


Top close-up.


Side Profile - Finished!.









See, this is why I stay away from here and elsewhere, I have enough projects going on already. 3 weeks ago I login to try and find an answer for about an amp, start catching up with the goings on and the next thing you know I'm build Lilmike's Exodus TH, I order new Rythmik drivers and build another sub, and then yesterday morning I ended up ordering all this (minus the PC890 had that lying around), this hobbie is a curse.










Preamble and Build.....

So I had a Rythmik 600A servo plate amp sitting around from some previous testing. Finally got around to ordering new drivers. First attempt is the new DS5010 driver which is basically a 15"+ version of the original. I usually don't post builds but Nith asked so what the hell.

Basic design is a tapered edge square end table, bottom firing woofer. Box = 3 cuft net after bracing, driver, amp. Core materials is 3/4" baltic birch which I veneered with some QS walnut,with massuranduba legs and trim.

Final cut after veneering.


Loose tenons on the legs and side for easy alignment.


Pre-Fit sides w/legs


Pre-Fit top


Box clamped, screwed, and glued


Top glued and clamped



Anyhow that's my progress so far this week. Tomorrow is bracing and glue the top on. Then comes sanding, sanding... vinyl sealer, sanding, some lacquer, more sanding, some more lacquer..... You know the fun part


The next day...

Cleaned up the glue joints and did a little pre-sanding near the to-be-bonded edges. Used a large cross brace and additional sticks from off-cuts to work around the amp and add glue surface for the top. Last clamped on the top.....

Cross-brace, DS5010 has a 8.5"+ diameter magnet.


Adding the top, using 4x4 to create a parallel clamping surface.



And the next day...

Epoxied the massaranduba edge banding around the driver cut-out and walnut veneer around the amp. Cut the top to final dimensions and rough sanded the edging near flush to the veneer center and then hand scraped it to final.

Edge band glue-up


Top scraped in



And the next next day....

Edge banding flushed up and the whole bit sanded to 240g. 3 thin coats of vinyl sealer on with a little defurring in between.




A few days later.....

So I got 4 coats of lacquer on Sunday, 1st and 2nd tinted with blood red and blue, 3rd and 4th clear. Monday, sanded back, layed down 5th and 6th coat of an amber mix (yellow, red, brown) and then the 7th and 8th coat of original tint. There were a few remaining parts of the top edging that had not filled so I painted in some thick lacquer with an art brush to harden overnight. Finally to today, sanded back the whole cabinet to 400 and then sprayed a 9th and final full wet coat of another amber mix with a blended sheen of 65. Now just have to wait a few hours for the final coating to harden a bit so I can install the driver and amp. Finished pics to come....

After 4 coats


After 8 coats


After final sanding, ready for finish coat.


Finished build at the top.
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post #2 of 36 Old 09-16-2010, 08:16 AM
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How did you get the DS1510?

It looks very good so far. What method do you use to apply veneer? I was so intimidated by veneering so I went straight to appleply.
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post #3 of 36 Old 09-16-2010, 12:05 PM
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Wow really nice clean work, I'm really liking the Walnut veneer it'll look killer once lacquered.
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post #4 of 36 Old 09-16-2010, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nith View Post

How did you get the DS1510?

It looks very good so far. What method do you use to apply veneer? I was so intimidated by veneering so I went straight to appleply.

I contacted Brian @ Rythmik and he offered it up for sale. I believe he is waiting on cabinets right now for a few offerings. I also bought dual DS1500's to build an opposed closure as well, but I decided to go for an up-down firing round design. I am waiting on a few waterworks plumbing suppliers to get back to me regarding ~24" pvc.

Regarding veneering, I broke down the sheets into oversized squares and cut the veneer the same size. Then I roll standard PVA glue on both sides, I use Tightbond II Extend (extend = dries slower) for small projects, then mate the surfaces and using a veneer roller work out any air bubbles etc. from the center out. Then just stack them and clamp them working from the center out, once cured cut to final. However if you're using a rounded edge enclosure you could veneer the end pieces beforehand then use the iron-on method to finish the enclosure. Heres a picture of the ply-veneer stack in the clamps, using offcuts for glue blocks you can help spread the pressure when using round head clamps.



Edit: also updated the orginal post with progress.
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post #5 of 36 Old 09-17-2010, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post

Wow really nice clean work, I'm really liking the Walnut veneer it'll look killer once lacquered.

Thanks Clinton,

There is some nice quilt in the walnut veneer, should show well once lacquered. Haven't decided yet whether to tint the first few coats of lacquer to deepen the color on the walnut. Maybe give it that consumer look where walnut is the color of espresso and rosewood is blood red, or not.
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post #6 of 36 Old 09-17-2010, 01:08 PM
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LBDiver,

You have a very nice Festool router there. You have cabinetry business? The veneering method that you described made it sound so easy. When I do a redux of subs, I will give a veneer a try.

I noticed you glued all the enclosure walls first. Wouldn't that make it difficult to glue up the braces?
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post #7 of 36 Old 09-17-2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Thanks Clinton,

There is some nice quilt in the walnut veneer, should show well once lacquered. Haven't decided yet whether to tint the first few coats of lacquer to deepen the color on the walnut. Maybe give it that consumer look where walnut is the color of espresso and rosewood is blood red, or not.

Personally I like the lighter shade of natural walnut. The gold tones that come out with the finish is what makes it pop in my opinion, tinting would kill that I would think. Huge fan of hardwood finish, if I was a better woodworker my current build would be finished in veneer instead of the high gloss painted finish I have planed.
I can't wait to see how this turns out, since I can tell by your build pics that your a stickler for details.
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post #8 of 36 Old 09-17-2010, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nith View Post

LBDiver,

You have a very nice Festool router there. You have cabinetry business? The veneering method that you described made it sound so easy. When I do a redux of subs, I will give a veneer a try.

I noticed you glued all the enclosure walls first. Wouldn't that make it difficult to glue up the braces?

Just another hobbiest woodworker here. Sadly gone are the days when Milwaukee tools are made in Wisconsin, Bosch in Germany, Makita in Japan, Porter-Cable, Dewalt, Delta.... yet the prices have not got any cheaper. If you look at tools as an investment, Festool is it, they are costly but superbly engineered and most of all they last.

Regarding veneer, "don't fear the veneer", it definitely takes a bit of finesse sometimes. I forgot to mention last night that you can also use wood contact cement. Method is basically the same, just roll it on both sides and be sure you have everything aligned before you set it. Some toxic stuff but very effective and saves you from having to use apply multiple layers of glue, and the whole ironing bit. There are many ways to tackle it and you seem to be a quick study and willing to put forth the effort, you got to start sometime.

With the brace, I precut the one cross-brace when I did the sides. The reason while I waited until after was because of the angles involved and not having had a chance to thoroughly measure the necessary recesses for the amp and driver beforehand. Also, one less piece to potentially throw a wrench in the initial glue-up. Sometimes everything fits perfect in the dry-fit when you can tweak and adjust, but once the glue is applied and starting to set, the simpler the better. I glued and screwed in the main cross brace, then after that was able to cut each crossmember for a proper fit. Some polyurethane glue and a few brads to hold them in place until the glue dries is all that's needed for those.

I read in your thread you hand scraped to smooth the finish. These are very handy for a multitude of things in woodworking, ie cleaning glue joints, flushing up veneer, etc. Used mine tonight to scrape what was left of the blue tape off the top after doing the rough sanding.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=hss
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post #9 of 36 Old 09-18-2010, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post

Personally I like the lighter shade of natural walnut. The gold tones that come out with the finish is what makes it pop in my opinion, tinting would kill that I would think. Huge fan of hardwood finish, if I was a better woodworker my current build would be finished in veneer instead of the high gloss painted finish I have planed.
I can't wait to see how this turns out, since I can tell by your build pics that your a stickler for details.

I hear you on the color, and yes a 1/32 gap pisses me off. A couple years ago I replicated a modern walnut crib for my sister and after all those hours and 8 coats of lacquer I get "that doesn't look dark brown like in the picture" However to match the decor a light mixture of oxblood and blue might be in the works here. The Behlen (now Mohawk since RPM bought them out) colorants I use can be applied with moderation without muddying the finish and loosing the depth. Hopefully will have time this weekend to finish sanding and start spraying, damn NFL.

Good luck with your build, nothing wrong with a quality gloss finish.
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post #10 of 36 Old 09-18-2010, 12:50 AM
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Well I hope you don't kill the natural look of the wood, red sometimes does that if mixed to strong. Blue shouldn't be an issue but the two mixed well.. I'm own part of a bodyshop so I know all about tinting and how it can go wrong fast. Good luck on the finish.
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post #11 of 36 Old 09-19-2010, 01:37 AM - Thread Starter
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ClintonH,

I hear ya, the Behlen Solar-Lux I predominantly use is actually a pre-mixed aniline stain that is compatible with lacquer and therefore very translucent compared to standard colorants. If I had the time to wait, the massaranduba would naturally oxidize to a deep shade of burgundy/red if left in the sun. Anyhow, I had time this evening (midnight) to get a few thin coats of sealer on, the natural color is pretty much there, maybe just deepen it up a bit.

Updated 1st post with a pic..

So are you going with a fancy candy or pearl finish since you have the resources of your shop.
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post #12 of 36 Old 09-19-2010, 07:46 AM
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Thats some beautiful craftsmanship.

High Desert Theater - work in progress
Building Bass - Subs

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post #13 of 36 Old 09-19-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

ClintonH,

I hear ya, the Behlen Solar-Lux I predominantly use is actually a pre-mixed aniline stain that is compatible with lacquer and therefore very translucent compared to standard colorants. If I had the time to wait, the massaranduba would naturally oxidize to a deep shade of burgundy/red if left in the sun. Anyhow, I had time this evening (midnight) to get a few thin coats of sealer on, the natural color is pretty much there, maybe just deepen it up a bit.

Updated 1st post with a pic..

So are you going with a fancy candy or pearl finish since you have the resources of your shop.

This is looking perfect, few more coats and I'd call it a day. Wish I had the skills to do a wood finish like that, closest I've come is the imperial cherry HW I put in out house. (pre finished)

I was thinking about going with a deep cherry candy color, but nothing in my theater room would match it at all. I don't want to do a piano black since that's way too common, so I'm thinking charcoal pearl gray. Might blend in with the room better, too many options I can always repaint if I don't like it.
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post #14 of 36 Old 09-20-2010, 06:51 PM
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LBDiver, that was extremely fast building the cabinet, and beautiful craftmanship. The color coordination is superbly executed. It looks beautiful. You will enjoy the 'HIGH DEFINITION BASS' as I have. If you have Audyssey equiped receiver...watch out.
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post #15 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nith View Post

If you have Audyssey equiped receiver...watch out.

Is that 'watch out' in a good way or a bad way? I have an Audyssey equiped receiver and was thinking about trying a Rythmik build, so I (and the OP I am sure) would like to know if there is a gotcha waiting for us.

Chris

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--Despair, Inc. "Regret"

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post #16 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 11:32 AM
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Nice sub. Great woodwork. I marvel at the ability of our forum members on DIY builds.
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post #17 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerParty View Post

Is that 'watch out' in a good way or a bad way? I have an Audyssey equiped receiver and was thinking about trying a Rythmik build, so I (and the OP I am sure) would like to know if there is a gotcha waiting for us.

In good and bad. I'm trying to figure it out myself. There is nothing wrong with the sub by the way.

Upper frequency = good
low frequency = bad

When I say bad I mean when Audyssey is engaged, it seems low frequency below 30Hz is not there. Turn off Audyssey, you get all the bass glory. I'm still tweaking to see what's going on. I'm going to buy SPL meter + REW to see what's going on.
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post #18 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 02:52 PM
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I have 2 pre/pros and 2 AVRs with Audyssey Mult EQ XT and there is no issues with low bass. Now Im not a fan of flat curves down low but that isnt a flaw, its just a preferences.

I have never measured or seen where Audyssey is cutting off everything below 30Hz, do you have a link?

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post #19 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 05:37 PM
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My apology to LBDiver for discussing something else besides his build.

Edit: Audyssey is resolved. User errors. But information below is very interesting though...

I'm kind of frustrated for spending nearly $3K (drivers+amp+tools) to get the same result as the subwoofer that I am replacing (8" ported sub). The user below pretty much explains my frustration. I know Audyssey is eq'ing to get flat response and all...[thin bass] but there are a lot of contents missing in the low frequency. From what can catch...Audyssey Pro Kit or external sub eq fixes this problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...89#post9138689
can't agree with you here Sanjay...sorry.

while the jist of your point is well taken, the effects of room gain and resonances on the LFE as "we are used to it" is not exactly what many of us are experiencing.... Using EQ systems that are known to handle the LFE channel correctly, such as teh SMS-1 from Velo or a simple Behringer BFD1124, always produce excellent ruler flat results while keeping infrasonic (sub 20hz) frequencies Viscerally!

When one watches WOTW chapter 4 (pods emerging) or Finding nemo Chap 8 (submarine hitting wall), and you have all that sub 20hz content flowing, it provides for an excellent experience, provided your sub can reproduce it. Engaging Auddyssey has completely whipped that out, and provides a very unnatural and anemic response in these ranges.

It is very clear to me after playing with it for a few weeks now, that Audyssey's major contribution is in the non-LFE channels and in the 35-80hz range on the LFE channel...it provides for a natural and accurate reproduction here, but does a completely horrendous job on lower frequency content.

I hope the auddyssey guys would chime in and perhaps provide some input, but seems like the algorithm on the LFE channel is definitely geared towards the masses who have subwoofers that can't even go down to 25hz, much less lower......those of us with enough sub capability to go deep into the teens and even single digits, are left with having to disable Auddessey altogether, as there is no way that we know of, of engaging it only for the non-LFE channels.

-Sherv



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...96#post9792196

Audyssey does not only substantially cut through subsonic content (ie, below 20hz), but will dramatically impact 20-30hz as well. You can read this thread for more information:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...highlight=3806

Trimming the subwoofer does NOT solve this issue. Audyssey MultiEQ was designed for the average consumer, which generally speaking, will not have subwoofers capable of reference output below 25hz. They have addressed this issue with the PRO version of Audyssey, and they have also paired with subwoofer companies such as SVS to address and provide the benefits of Audyssey down into the low extension realms:
http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_AudyessyRelease.pdf
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post #20 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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No worries Nith,

This sub is going to be paired to an Onk1007 for some music and HT, have not screwed with Audyssey much and will have to investigate. I have a basic REW setup with a mic and mobile-pre, but am usually too lazy to set it up.
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post #21 of 36 Old 09-21-2010, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

No worries Nith,

This sub is going to be paired to an Onk1007 for some music and HT, have not screwed with Audyssey much and will have to investigate. I have a basic REW setup with a mic and mobile-pre, but am usually too lazy to set it up.

Saw your update photos...looks very nice. If I live near you I would have paid you to do the topcoats for me.

I resolved the Audyssey issue. I think the sub has to be in correct delay/phase before running Audyssey...I think.
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post #22 of 36 Old 09-22-2010, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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End table Rythmik finished, updated OP with final pics. So far sounding fantastic in her initial run through. Thanks to those who left kind words,and those looking on. If somebody is interested in building a same/similar enclosure PM me and I can send the Sketchup file.

--LBD
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post #23 of 36 Old 09-22-2010, 10:59 PM
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That turned out well "Just Perfect". (need a thumbs up smilie) I love the finish on it very clean and smooth, I would say furniture grade but it's nicer than most/any I've seen. Does it say in place ok, no dancing around? What did it end up weighting in the end?
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post #24 of 36 Old 09-22-2010, 11:00 PM
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Oh and maybe some day I'll do some wood work, or try I'll send a pm with my addy if you can shoot me the file. Thanks.
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post #25 of 36 Old 09-23-2010, 05:54 AM
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Wow, looks great. I bet it sounds fantastic as well.

Are you building another subwoofer using the DS1500 and A370PEQ. I would be interested to hear how they compare. With the servo, I'm lead to believe they sound the same, but the DS1510 has another 2db in output. Would be interested in your views.
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post #26 of 36 Old 09-23-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

See, this is why I stay away from here and elsewhere, I have enough projects going on already. 3 weeks ago I login to try and find an answer for about an amp, start catching up with the goings on and the next thing you know I'm build Lilmike's Exodus TH, I order new Rythmik drivers and build another sub, ...

Sounds like someone has got the building bug bad!

I also have a copy of LilMikes' Exodus TH plans and I have been thinking about an early birthday gift to myself (it is a cool little horn, isn't it?). But, I also have my new plan for a ported Shiva-X2, there are the AviaTrix mains I have the parts for, and...

I think we are both in trouble, big trouble...

Sweet looking build, definitely two thumbs way up on this one.

Chris

"It hurts to admit when you make mistakes - but when they are big enough, the pain only lasts a second."
--Despair, Inc. "Regret"

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post #27 of 36 Old 09-23-2010, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post

That turned out well "Just Perfect". (need a thumbs up smilie) I love the finish on it very clean and smooth, I would say furniture grade but it's nicer than most/any I've seen. Does it say in place ok, no dancing around? What did it end up weighting in the end?

Thanks,

Haven't run it near it's limits yet so don't know if it will walk away, however the rubber I attached to the feet is seems to have just the right amount give and it grabs well to my stone floors. I meant to weigh everything before I put it all together, will try and rig something up to weight it, I imagine it is ~90lbs, the massaranduba is very dense roughly 40% heavier than MDF by volume.


Quote:
Originally Posted by InterestedUser View Post

Wow, looks great. I bet it sounds fantastic as well.

Are you building another subwoofer using the DS1500 and A370PEQ. I would be interested to hear how they compare. With the servo, I'm lead to believe they sound the same, but the DS1510 has another 2db in output. Would be interested in your views.

I bought the DS1500's to build a dual opposed version to try out since I had a 600w Servo amp from some previous OB testing. I'm working on sourcing 20-24" PVC drain pipe for a up-down firing arrangement. The dual opposed should be 3dB hotter than the single DS1510 per Brian @ Rythmik. I honestly don't know if there would be much a difference in the FR between the single 15" options beside the 2dB as you noted, it follows what should be expected when going from a 370W amp to 600W, however the VC and cone construction is different between the drivers. The DS1510 has a very clean look with the single piece spun aluminum cone, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerParty View Post

Sounds like someone has got the building bug bad!

I also have a copy of LilMikes' Exodus TH plans and I have been thinking about an early birthday gift to myself (it is a cool little horn, isn't it?). But, I also have my new plan for a ported Shiva-X2, there are the AviaTrix mains I have the parts for, and...

I think we are both in trouble, big trouble...

Sweet looking build, definitely two thumbs way up on this one.

Lilmikes TH is definitely a cool little subwoofer. It's a perfect build for someone like myself who wanted to try out a horn subwoofer. The cost of components using a Jack Hidley amp is <$200, goes together in a single afternoon, isn't ginormous, and extends pretty low for a horn. The AviaTrix looks to be a solid MTM design, Curt is very thorough in his design and testing, I may be building a pair for a friend.

Have fun!
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post #28 of 36 Old 09-23-2010, 05:14 PM
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WOW!



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post #29 of 36 Old 09-24-2010, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Nith,

Nice thing about the side panels recessed from the legs is that it hides the amp completely when looking from an opposing side, just need a right angle RCA for the LFE channel to complete the inconspicuousness.

How has your Audyssey testing gone, have you found resolution to your initial problem of deficient ULF? If you're ever in SoCal with a few unfinished cabs I would be happy to shoot them for ya, as long as you do the sanding.
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post #30 of 36 Old 09-24-2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Thanks Nith,

Nice thing about the side panels recessed from the legs is that it hides the amp completely when looking from an opposing side, just need a right angle RCA for the LFE channel to complete the inconspicuousness.

How has your Audyssey testing gone, have you found resolution to your initial problem of deficient ULF? If you're ever in SoCal with a few unfinished cabs I would be happy to shoot them for ya, as long as you do the sanding.

With the design like this, your guest(s) will not know what hit them during the movie watching. Thanks for the spraying offer, but hauling unfinished cab(s) from 3000 miles away is really sucks. By the way, what is vinyl seal? Is that a sealant that can only be applied by spraying?

I got a nice result from Audyssey now, but I don't know what was the problem. When I was complaining about it, everyone said I was not accustomed to flat bass.... The fact is there was no bass below 30Hz and the bass sounded whimpering. It could be the phase or an incorrect setting for the extension filtering or combination of both. These were the symptoms: sometimes Audyssey would pick up incorrect sub distance [180deg*** out of phase?], and sometimes Audyssey had to play the tone twice [not loud enough because of 14/LOW extension filtering setting?].

***I think the way I placed the subs [left and right of TV] I may have inadvertently made one of the sub 180 degree out of phase.
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