Thinking of swapping horns on my 3677s - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I just bought 3 JBL 3677s. I'm noticing a little roughness in the CD. Wayne at pi speakers says it's my horn the JBL 2373 as he's heard it and found the horn "spitty".

I don't mind changing parts as I plan on building new enclosures for these speakers to fit my theater room. One will be in each corner and the center will be behind the screen set into my wall. I really wanted to by the parts (new) for the 3677s and build my own but it was cheaper to buy the complete speakers.

Wayne recommended I keep the CD (JBL 2416-1h) as he says it's a very smooth driver. He recommended the Eminence H290 horn. this horn is a little pricey at about $40 each..not bad but I want to make sure there's not something that may be even smoother for less.

Size of the horn isn't a biggie as I plan to outboard the horn when I build my enclosures. Of course depth is...I don't want to cause timming issues if I use a horn that's too deep.

The JBL Xover I'm using is set at 1.2k so a horn down to 1k should be good.

Thanks in advace.
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post #2 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 11:46 AM
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I wonder if a change would negatively affect your network (x-over)?
I am thinking of swapping diaphragms on my 2430's and using a 2431, which is aluminum. I have a 2431 on my AM6215 and prefer the smoother sound.
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post #3 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

I wonder if a change would negatively affect your network (x-over)?
I am thinking of swapping diaphragms on my 2430's and using a 2431, which is aluminum. I have a 2431 on my AM6215 and prefer the smoother sound.

I doubt it'll change anything as far as Xover is concerned, at least not enough for me to notice...as long as it can handle the 1.2k xover point I should be fine.

Wayne thinks the driver I have should sound really smooth. He used to use similar CDs to what we have by JBL but he now uses B&C DE250 which he says is just as smooth with a better top end it uses a Polyimide diaphragm. If the new horns don't make me happy I may match them up with the B&C. Geddes also uses the same B&C driver...so it should be a good one...this would give me something like a cross between a Pi4 and 3677.
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post #4 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 01:18 PM
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2430 is aluminum:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ll=1#post54744

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
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post #5 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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post #6 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 02:59 PM
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When do you find it harsh? I have a feeling that every step you move up the JBL pro line the better or less harsh the sound gets.

Have you tried using a foam plug or something like Geddes uses? Maybe something like that will work.

My horn speakers actually have most of the dialog or vocals coming from my horn and not my woofers. The very low voices will come from them but anything above 750hz will be from my horn. I wonder how much that matters?

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post #7 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

When do you find it harsh? I have a feeling that every step you move up the JBL pro line the better or less harsh the sound gets.

Have you tried using a foam plug or something like Geddes uses? Maybe something like that will work.

My horn speakers actually have most of the dialog or vocals coming from my horn and not my woofers. The very low voices will come from them but anything above 750hz will be from my horn. I wonder how much that matters?

After talking with Wayne I'm pretty sure it's the horn as he doesn't like that horn. I did swap out the CD last night with some I had laying around that weren't harsh with another horn I have and the horn was still adding some harshness to it...although it didn't have the heft the JBL CD does.
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post #8 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 03:26 PM
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How about foam or something? I am not sure how they implement it though.

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post #9 of 23 Old 10-05-2010, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How about foam or something? I am not sure how they implement it though.

Yea..I already know what foam to use if I go that route, but I'd rather start off with nice smooth combo before instead of trying to mask anything...and I'd have to tweak the Xover if I foamed it too as foam drops your output a few dbs. If I have to replace the horn or even both horn and CD it's no biggie. JBL stuff is pretty pricey even in the used market.

I'm hoping maybe Penn or some of the other guys who've tried lots of horns will chime in.
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post #10 of 23 Old 10-31-2010, 11:46 AM
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Does the eminence horn fit in the 3677s cabinet? I know you are building new ones but what about somone who just wanted to plug and play swap the horns? Could it work?
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post #11 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Does the eminence horn fit in the 3677s cabinet? I know you are building new ones but what about somone who just wanted to plug and play swap the horns? Could it work?

It'll fit but you'll have to trim a little off of the top of the horn cutout. The hole is also a little wide but the H290 horn will cover it.

I actually really like the original horn. I've swapped out the original and the H290 (4pi horn) several times...they are both good and smooth but the 2373 (JBL horn) has a bigger, wider sound.
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post #12 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 01:35 PM
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Hey goonstopher
Are you going to get the 3677's? I've been debating for over two weeks and can't make up my mind. Maybe I should try to rent them locally first?
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post #13 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tyee View Post

Hey goonstopher
Are you going to get the 3677's? I've been debating for over two weeks and can't make up my mind. Maybe I should try to rent them locally first?

That's a very good idea, just make sure they are well used. If they're new keep in mind they take a very long time to break in, even the CD is stubborn and takes much longer to smooth out than I woulda ever thought.
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post #14 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 03:01 PM
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While looking for more reviews on the 3677 I found this --

3677's sound great outside too! Check out this special presentation of Out of Africa in 70mm in Copenhagen!! Watch the video at the bottom of the page!

http://www.in70mm.com/news/2010/blixen/index.htm
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post #15 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

Yea..I already know what foam to use if I go that route, but I'd rather start off with nice smooth combo before instead of trying to mask anything...and I'd have to tweak the Xover if I foamed it too as foam drops your output a few dbs. If I have to replace the horn or even both horn and CD it's no biggie. JBL stuff is pretty pricey even in the used market.

I'm hoping maybe Penn or some of the other guys who've tried lots of horns will chime in.

Even Im Still learning Geddes thinks all horns are honkers period...too much diffraction, only horns with an OS shape or similar with the least amount of diffraction will give us the smoothest response.

There are so many things to consider....

-Compression driver mouth exit angle vs horn throat angle.

-Horn diffraction itself, if there isnt a smooth transition throughout the horn its going to have HOMs which do create the honking/spitting/shouty sound.

I have yet to really understand the difference foam makes, I have the foam in place and I will remove it to see if there is an audible degrade in my sould.

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post #16 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Even Im Still learning Geddes thinks all horns are honkers period...too much diffraction, only horns with an OS shape or similar with the least amount of diffraction will give us the smoothest response.

There are so many things to consider....

-Compression driver mouth exit angle vs horn throat angle.

-Horn diffraction itself, if there isnt a smooth transition throughout the horn its going to have HOMs which do create the honking/spitting/shouty sound.

I have yet to really understand the difference foam makes, I have the foam in place and I will remove it to see if there is an audible degrade in my sould.

Yea it really surprised me how much difference swapping horns could make, the H290 has a throat about 3" deeper than the 2373 but other than that they are similar. Both have about a 100 deg. hor. dispertion but the 2373 sounds bigger and stronger. Although the H290 has a slightly softer sound which isn't bad either.

As far as foam goes...if I didn't have to remove atternuation from the Crossover I might would try it. I really don't agree with all horns being honky. The Pro-10s weren't honky at all the little HM-17 horn sounds really good and neutral within it's limits... nor is the 3677 once it broke in.
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post #17 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post

Hey goonstopher
Are you going to get the 3677's? I've been debating for over two weeks and can't make up my mind. Maybe I should try to rent them locally first?

I don't think so. Price is my main concern right now and the pair I was considering maxes out my budget and thats just for 2 and they don't have crossovers which would go well over my budget. I sold my dream speakers (JTR's) to get badly needed funds, if I spend too much I will kick myself because I already had my perfect speaker. Gotta stay in budget.

I am considering JBL MRX515's they can be found decently cheap if you are patient. Gotta try to hear them first.
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post #18 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 09:49 PM
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Were you thinking that less than 1200 is too much for two 3677's? As far as I know they do have built in crossovers too!
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post #19 of 23 Old 11-01-2010, 10:14 PM
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Less than 900 should be too much for me... like I said I sold what I consider perfect speakers for 1400. Need to get 3 fronts for like 800-900
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post #20 of 23 Old 11-02-2010, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

Yea it really surprised me how much difference swapping horns could make, the H290 has a throat about 3" deeper than the 2373 but other than that they are similar. Both have about a 100 deg. hor. dispertion but the 2373 sounds bigger and stronger. Although the H290 has a slightly softer sound which isn't bad either.

As far as foam goes...if I didn't have to remove atternuation from the Crossover I might would try it. I really don't agree with all horns being honky. The Pro-10s weren't honky at all the little HM-17 horn sounds really good and neutral within it's limits... nor is the 3677 once it broke in.

As I posted its Geddes that thinks all horns honk. Im a huge Klipsch fan and I would disagree with him on that point agreeing with you. Of course it all depends on if you can hear it or not and some people pick up on it more then others, nothing wrong with not hearing it, its kind of like those who argue about pixelation, deep colors and blackest black in the video world. Some people pick up on the very subtle change and make it out to be the worst sound or picture.

The Foam tends to only attenuate the lower frequency, you might try it just to tame the harshness. Honk, Harshness or whatever people want to call it happens in the lower frequencies and maybe the Foam can tame that a little.

As for the Pro-10 designs, I tested the horn and the CD use in the PRO-10 long before that speaker came out. I think they are just low cost, low SQ option nothing more and that does not even start to talk about the XO/directivity flaws in it (waveguide is too small for that XO point). You can ask someone like Zilch who has done many, many waveguide builds on that topic. Everytime I post something accurate but negative on the product I get reported

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post #21 of 23 Old 11-02-2010, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Everytime I post something accurate but negative on the product I get reported

Ha, I know what you mean. It's all DIY parts and this is a science forum, what do they expect...it's not like they reinvented the wheel or anything. I searched Econowaves and found that same CD and horn being used together several times.
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-22-2012, 06:47 PM
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Hey cdy,

I know this an old thread but if you're around here, do you mind telling us what happened as regards your JBL horns? Did you eventually swap them out for something else? Did you try the foam and if so, how did it go?

I'd be very interested to know how you got on...
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-29-2014, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Just in case anyone searches this old thread I just saw, I'll answer. Yes I tried a few other horns, the threaded version of the horn the 4pi used, also a few others from parts express including the HM17. All of the other horns were plastic and cheap next to the JBL beefy aluminum horn. It really is a nice expensive feeling horn.

At first it sounded slightly harsh as i stated in my reviews (I later discovered they needed more break in time). That's what led me to try other horns. Of all the horns, the JBL horn was definately the best by far, it imaged superbly and as the speakers broke it really smoothed out and was just outstanding. To me the 4pi horn was close but sounded a tad ...spitty at times.

Other than that, I have built a few subs and loudspeakers and was very surprised to find very thin insulation inside the cabinets. Knowing the 4pi had a similar woofer by JBL and similar crossover point and it had thick r13 in the cabinet....I upgraded the center channel with r13. The deeper part of the vocals smoothed out even more and i would definately recommend it to anyone who buys them as a cheap little upgrade.

As far as the foam in the horn, I tried it, I actually felt they where so smooth (to my ears) that I really had no use for it.

Nothing has come close to the dynamics and just pure "goofy grin" feeling these gave me. Soon we will building a new house and I WILL have room for these behind my screen, actually (at the moment) I'm thinking I'll probably going with a 6 channel system with 6 3677s all the way around the room.
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