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post #3151 of 3195 Old 07-09-2015, 05:12 PM
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I'm using a miniDSP 2x4 to flatten out my bass response before I let my Dirac 88a have it's way with my room.

I'm using the advanced 2x4 plugin.

The datasheet says that I have a 5 band PEQ shared by inputs 1&2, and then further down the chain, I have another 5 band PEQ for each of those two inputs.

Is there one that I should prefer using over the other? And, maybe more importantly, is there any reason I can't use both?

Say if I limit REW to 10hz to 30hz, output the filters, stick them in the first bank, and then limit REW to 30hz to 200hz, and put those filters in the 2nd bank further down the chain?

Thanks.
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post #3152 of 3195 Old 07-09-2015, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
I'm using a miniDSP 2x4 to flatten out my bass response before I let my Dirac 88a have it's way with my room.

I'm using the advanced 2x4 plugin.

The datasheet says that I have a 5 band PEQ shared by inputs 1&2, and then further down the chain, I have another 5 band PEQ for each of those two inputs.

Is there one that I should prefer using over the other? And, maybe more importantly, is there any reason I can't use both?

Say if I limit REW to 10hz to 30hz, output the filters, stick them in the first bank, and then limit REW to 30hz to 200hz, and put those filters in the 2nd bank further down the chain?

Thanks.
Simply run a REW sweep 15-300Hz for the subs only. Use the sweep results as the input to the REW EQ tool. Save the EQ filters that REW generates and load them into the 2x4. Then run the Dirac Live calibration and measure the results.

Step 2: clear the REW filters from the 2x4. Run a Dirac Live calibration and measure the results. Compare the two results measurements, one with EQ filters in the 2x4, and one with no filters.
Unless the measurement with EQ filters in the 2x4 is significantly better, stick with letting Dirac do the job without any help. The less EQ you have, the better.
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post #3153 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Simply run a REW sweep 15-300Hz for the subs only. Use the sweep results as the input to the REW EQ tool. Save the EQ filters that REW generates and load them into the 2x4. Then run the Dirac Live calibration and measure the results.

Step 2: clear the REW filters from the 2x4. Run a Dirac Live calibration and measure the results. Compare the two results measurements, one with EQ filters in the 2x4, and one with no filters.
Unless the measurement with EQ filters in the 2x4 is significantly better, stick with letting Dirac do the job without any help. The less EQ you have, the better.
Sure, I've got that. But I was still wondering if anyone does or doesn't use *both* sets of filters in the 2x4. And, if they are using only one set, which one?

Also, speaking of the Dirac 88a, does it make sense to limit the frequency range that it is applying filters to for the sub channel? I think by default, it has the entire range selected...but if you are only using your sub below 300Hz, for example, doesn't it make sense to tell the Dirac to not bother doing anything above that for the sub channel?
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post #3154 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 06:06 AM
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well it's easier to use the input filters if you want to EQ both output subs the same. If you want to EQ the subs separately then you use the output filters. Or use them both if you need lots of filters. If you just have 1 sub then it doesn't matter which one you use. I use input filters for a low shelf filter, and the output filters for EQ. Then I can easily turn my bass boost on and off just by turning the input filter on or off, and it doesn't affect my EQ.
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post #3155 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Sure, I've got that. But I was still wondering if anyone does or doesn't use *both* sets of filters in the 2x4. And, if they are using only one set, which one?

Also, speaking of the Dirac 88a, does it make sense to limit the frequency range that it is applying filters to for the sub channel? I think by default, it has the entire range selected...but if you are only using your sub below 300Hz, for example, doesn't it make sense to tell the Dirac to not bother doing anything above that for the sub channel?
No, Dirac does not select the full range for the sub channel. As shown below, Dirac is creating filters only for the 15-500Hz range (in my case). Of course, you can drag the right limit lower if you want.



The 2x4 plug-in has one parametric EQ that applies to all four channels, and then it has a set of four parametric EQ's that apply to each individual channel. If you are using the 2x4 on the sub channel, IMO it is important to treat the subs as a single consolidated signal, which is why I would recommend using the single PEQ that applies to all four outputs. It doesn't make sense to me to measure individual subs and apply unique PEQ's to each sub. Is this what you are asking?
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post #3156 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 06:45 AM
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Hello everyone,

I just stumbled upon the MINIdsp and I am now thinking about adding it to my setup. I currently am running 2x 12inch sound splinter DIY subs. These are basically Tc sounds drivers. They are being lowered by a Tapco juice 1400 bridged 1400w into 4ohm. I have an Onkyo 709 with audyessey. Do I need a mini 2x4 balanced or unbalanced? The Tapco accepts 1/4 plug.

Thank you
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post #3157 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 06:52 AM
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you need balanced, the input sensitivity of that amp is 1.15V, and the unbalance can only do 0.9V.
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post #3158 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
you need balanced, the input sensitivity of that amp is 1.15V, and the unbalance can only do 0.9V.
Thank you for the info. As far as a plug in which one would be best? I have the amp bridged for both subs. The boxes are sealed.
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post #3159 of 3195 Old 07-10-2015, 08:03 AM
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All the plug-ins work fine for subwoofer, my favorite is the 4 way crossover, you can use 1 LFE input and you get 4 outputs. If you have 2 LFE inputs to the minidsp don't get 4 way though unless you only want to run 1 input at a time.
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post #3160 of 3195 Old 07-11-2015, 04:57 AM
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I downloaded the user manual for the balanced mini dsp and i am not clear on a few things. If i remember correctly my Onkyo tx-nr709 puts out 4.6v on the sub output and the Tapco Juice amp 1.15 V (+3.4 dBu) for rated power into 4 ohms. If i understand correctly then the Onkyo is supplying enough voltage already? Now the mini dsp manual says the following......(Note that the input sensitivity jumper setting does not affect the maximum output signal – it is always 4V RMS for a balanced connection, or 2V RMS when taking an unbalanced connection). So if i am using an unbalanced input will i be able to change to a balanced output using XLR connection to the amp and have maximum 4 volts or is it still just going to be 2 volts because the input to the mini dsp is an unbalanced signal? I am wondering if i already have enough signal strength to drive the amp already and if i add the mini dsp it would actually change it? Bassically i am looking to i guess give the subs a little more in the 20hz below area. My other goal is to continue to use these subs and build two SI-HT 18 and another amp to the system.

Thank you
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post #3161 of 3195 Old 07-11-2015, 07:10 AM
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If you use the balanced output from the miniDSP you will get 4V RMS out with 4V RMS in (all adjustments flat in the miniDSP) regardless of whether the input is balanced or not.
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post #3162 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
If you use the balanced output from the miniDSP you will get 4V RMS out with 4V RMS in (all adjustments flat in the miniDSP) regardless of whether the input is balanced or not.
I thought that the balanced MiniDsp 2 x 4 has a max input and output of 2.0v? That is with the jumper set in the 2.0V position, right?

Also, to the poster two post above, if your Onkyo 709 has over a 4V output on the subwoofers .1 LFE channel, would that not clip the inputs to the MiniDsp, as its max input single is 2.0V, right? If that is the case then you would need to adjust your gain structure so as not to clip the inputs to the MiniDsp. You would do this by taking measurements and adjusting the LFE channel trim in your AVR.
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post #3163 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
I thought that the balanced MiniDsp 2 x 4 has a max input and output of 2.0v? That is with the jumper set in the 2.0V position, right?

Also, to the poster two post above, if your Onkyo 709 has over a 4V output on the subwoofers .1 LFE channel, would that not clip the inputs to the MiniDsp, as its max input single is 2.0V, right? If that is the case then you would need to adjust your gain structure so as not to clip the inputs to the MiniDsp. You would do this by taking measurements and adjusting the LFE channel trim in your AVR.
The balanced 2x4 model clips the input around 4.6-4.7Vrms. It can also output that much voltage.

My measurements of a few different receivers showed Pioneer Elite and high end Onkyo units were capable of outputting more than 4.6Vrms. The Denon 4520CI I have clipped the SW output just before the miniDSP will clip the input, like .1V sooner.
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post #3164 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 05:10 AM
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I have been going through the thread just trying to absorb all the great info. I am getting closer to pulling the trigger on the mini dsp 2x4 balanced kit to start off with. Is it necessary to use the UMIK-1 mic? Do i need to take room measurements using REW? This is probably the biggest area where i get overwhelmed.

Thank you
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post #3165 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 05:38 AM
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you're not the only one by a long shot . . .
but you're not alone either
you'll never regret getting the mike
You may actually wish to keep a "diary" of what you do, what you see, what you change, what works and what doesn't .. .
its the only way and also eye-opening
You have to create your own road map for this road trip (learning and taming your room, etc.) but its a road well traveled and full of friendly samaritans
you'll never hit a deadend and a diary is your road back


JUMP!

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post #3166 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splatee View Post
I have been going through the thread just trying to absorb all the great info. I am getting closer to pulling the trigger on the mini dsp 2x4 balanced kit to start off with. Is it necessary to use the UMIK-1 mic? Do i need to take room measurements using REW? This is probably the biggest area where i get overwhelmed.

Thank you
You don't need a mic to use the 2x4 by itself. If you want to generate automated EQ filters with REW to load into the 2x4, then of course you will need a mic for REW. REW works with a number of USB mics, including the UMIK-1 from MiniDSP, the UMM-6 from Dayton Audio, as well as other analog mics. If you ever plan on getting other kits from MiniDSP, such as the nanaoAVR or DDRC-88A, you should get the UMIK-1. There isn't a big price difference among the various mics. You might also consider purchasing from Cross Spectrum Labs, because each mic comes with a set of custom calibration files.

If you want a quick tutorial about how to use REW with the 2x4, take a look at the guide linked in my sig. Good luck!
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post #3167 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 06:07 AM
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@ asarose247 and AustinJerry

Thanks for the quick replies.

My main goal was to get my feet wet at first just playing around with the dsp and seeing if i can just improve the lower end of the subs. If i do not need a mic at first then that's fine with me. I am sure later i would want to experiment more with it. I am not necessarily looking at using REW, there is a lot there to learn and for now i was looking at something a little more on the newbie side of calibrating lol.

Thank you
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post #3168 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splatee View Post
@ asarose247 and AustinJerry

Thanks for the quick replies.

My main goal was to get my feet wet at first just playing around with the dsp and seeing if i can just improve the lower end of the subs. If i do not need a mic at first then that's fine with me. I am sure later i would want to experiment more with it. I am not necessarily looking at using REW, there is a lot there to learn and for now i was looking at something a little more on the newbie side of calibrating lol.

Thank you
IMO, you cannot achieve improvement without measurements. The REW guide linked in my sig is designed to make it as easy as possible. Besides, the auto EQ capability of REW makes it well worth while.
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post #3169 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
IMO, you cannot achieve improvement without measurements. The REW guide linked in my sig is designed to make it as easy as possible. Besides, the auto EQ capability of REW makes it well worth while.
I will go ahead and and continue reading all the related threads and also you REW guide. Its alot of info to take in. I need to lust slow down a bit and stop trying to run before i walk

Thank you
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post #3170 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
IMO, you cannot achieve improvement without measurements.
+10,000 I would go so far as to add if you aren't going to use REW or equivalent, don't waste your money on any of the miniDSP products that faciliate EQ of any kind.

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post #3171 of 3195 Old 07-12-2015, 04:41 PM
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given the variety of speakers and subs
and the overall well saturated experience, positive and negative, provided by very generous longtime dwellers here in the rabbit hole . . .


one thing I've missed reading about EQ being applied to BF subs, either thru the BFD or a mindsp, the types you can control


XT32 with the separated sub eq can do that too but we never really get to see what audyssey actually does. . .
yes it sets distance ande hides all the other stuff


any other input wrt BF sub EQ? via the BFD and /or minidsp?


and yes, I understand that if you pay attention to good placement, etc. they perform very well for about 95+% (?) of all media
but I had to ask


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post #3172 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 07:47 AM
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I will also chime in to say that if you aren't willing to learn REW and measure your response, using the MiniDSP would be akin to shooting darts in the dark. Don't waste your money.
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post #3173 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
well it's easier to use the input filters if you want to EQ both output subs the same. If you want to EQ the subs separately then you use the output filters. Or use them both if you need lots of filters. If you just have 1 sub then it doesn't matter which one you use. I use input filters for a low shelf filter, and the output filters for EQ. Then I can easily turn my bass boost on and off just by turning the input filter on or off, and it doesn't affect my EQ.
Ah, yes. That's what I was after. I was really just wondering if there is some untapped potential (more filters). It seems there is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No, Dirac does not select the full range for the sub channel. As shown below, Dirac is creating filters only for the 15-500Hz range (in my case). Of course, you can drag the right limit lower if you want.
Yep, I forgot about it capping at 500Hz. I found that (since I'm using an 80Hz crossover) I could move that down to around 200Hz, and it did a noticeably (visually, not necessarily audible) better job at smoothing below that point. It's like it has a limited number of filters to apply to each channel, and by telling it to focus below 200Hz, it suddenly had enough filters to tame some waviness that it didn't bother with when it was trying to get me smooth up to 500 Hz.

Just so we are all on the same page here. I'm dealing with two identical subs, equidistant from the MLP. I'm still in the "playing" phase with my 2x4balanced, and 88a. I'm planning to go back to no filters at all, getting a new clean REW measurement, and using both input and output filters on the 2x4 to see how flat I can get my two subs. Then I'd like to go back to no filters, and let the 88a do the best it can. If I compare the two, and I'm still not satisfied, I'd like to let the 88a do what it can do on-top of what the 2x4 is doing, and see where I end up. It's pretty good already, but while I'm still in the playing stage, I might as well strive for the best it can be.
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post #3174 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Ah, yes. That's what I was after. I was really just wondering if there is some untapped potential (more filters). It seems there is.



Yep, I forgot about it capping at 500Hz. I found that (since I'm using an 80Hz crossover) I could move that down to around 200Hz, and it did a noticeably (visually, not necessarily audible) better job at smoothing below that point. It's like it has a limited number of filters to apply to each channel, and by telling it to focus below 200Hz, it suddenly had enough filters to tame some waviness that it didn't bother with when it was trying to get me smooth up to 500 Hz.

Just so we are all on the same page here. I'm dealing with two identical subs, equidistant from the MLP. I'm still in the "playing" phase with my 2x4balanced, and 88a. I'm planning to go back to no filters at all, getting a new clean REW measurement, and using both input and output filters on the 2x4 to see how flat I can get my two subs. Then I'd like to go back to no filters, and let the 88a do the best it can. If I compare the two, and I'm still not satisfied, I'd like to let the 88a do what it can do on-top of what the 2x4 is doing, and see where I end up. It's pretty good already, but while I'm still in the playing stage, I might as well strive for the best it can be.
I did exactly what you are planning to do, and found that the 88A did as good a job without REW filters in the 2x4 as with the filters. Since less is always better, IMO, I decided to forget about using REW filters in the 2x4.
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post #3175 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I did exactly what you are planning to do, and found that the 88A did as good a job without REW filters in the 2x4 as with the filters. Since less is always better, IMO, I decided to forget about using REW filters in the 2x4.
Thanks for saving me a weekend. ;-) Now, what did I need this 2x4 for in the first place? ;-) I guess if I ever want to try one sub front, one sub rear it will help with the delays...
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post #3176 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 11:22 AM
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Has anyone ever seen this happen?My highs are good to around 350Hz (but we like them at 500Hz), but the MiniDSP will not allow them to go below 1000 before it starts the rollof which is costing me 12 addition DB of loss, and totally messing up the sound.

previous settings



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Krell Showcase 7.1, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, (3) Balanced MiniDSP 2x4s, (2) JBL 8340As,  PS3, XBox 360, (2) Intel NUCs, Blue Jeans 7.1 Cables, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster HTPS7000, 2 DTS-10 subs, Panasonic AE8000, SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Darbee Darcet, (1) Yamaha P7000s, (1) Yamaha XM-4080, (1) Sherbourne 5/1500, (1) Lexicon NT-512, MiniDSP DDRC-88A, and an Oppo 103.
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post #3177 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 12:39 PM
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Not quite following the question. If you want the roll off to start lower than 1,000, then use a steeper crossover slope, or a lower crossover point.

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post #3178 of 3195 Old 07-13-2015, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Not quite following the question. If you want the roll off to start lower than 1,000, then use a steeper crossover slope, or a lower crossover point.
I wanted the crossover to be like the first one was (6db down instead of 18db down at the crossover)... I posted on the MiniDSP forum, and they solved the problem. I had to go into the CH1 BandPass filter out 2, and change the settings. Apparently when I downloaded the new firmware there was a change which necessitated going into the CH1 Bandpass filter out 2 to correct.

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post #3179 of 3195 Old 07-14-2015, 03:24 PM
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I just spent many, many hours messing with the miniDSP (OpenDRC 2x2) to try to insure I don't have the input clipping. The best I can do is to have the mains at reference minus 5 and the subs at reference.

The input meters on the miniDSP don't have a hold or max readout so the only way I could determine if I was actually clipping was to watch the frequency response of the subs while running a frequency sweep through OmniMic. Once clipping started (but not obvious on the meters), the shape of the LFE response began to change.

This is not a HUGE limitation but one that should not be present. That said, it is entirely possible there are things I could do to improve it that I don't understand and am open to assistance. While watching the FR from OmniMic, I adjusted the gain knobs on the sub amps, and the trim(s) on the LFE channel. Then I looked at full FR of the mains plus subs until it looked appropriate until i could get the max SPL with out the FR plot going bad.

As an FYI, I'm using the Marantz 7702 as an SSP.

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post #3180 of 3195 Old 07-14-2015, 03:40 PM
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I just spent many, many hours messing with the miniDSP (OpenDRC 2x2) to try to insure I don't have the input clipping. The best I can do is to have the mains at reference minus 5 and the subs at reference.

The input meters on the miniDSP don't have a hold or max readout so the only way I could determine if I was actually clipping was to watch the frequency response of the subs while running a frequency sweep through OmniMic. Once clipping started (but not obvious on the meters), the shape of the LFE response began to change.

This is not a HUGE limitation but one that should not be present. That said, it is entirely possible there are things I could do to improve it that I don't understand and am open to assistance. While watching the FR from OmniMic, I adjusted the gain knobs on the sub amps, and the trim(s) on the LFE channel. Then I looked at full FR of the mains plus subs until it looked appropriate until i could get the max SPL with out the FR plot going bad.

As an FYI, I'm using the Marantz 7702 as an SSP.
What about measuring output voltages with a DMM?
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