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post #3601 of 3711 Old 05-12-2016, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post
Great. One more question. If I should have the mic pointed vertically up and use the 90 degree calibration file, how do I handle calibration of surround speakers that are mounted at an angle above the listener and to the side?
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Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Still pointing at the ceiling
+1
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post #3602 of 3711 Old 05-24-2016, 05:28 AM
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I use a Mini2x4 balanced for my subs, the Mini is connected to all four outputs and i use just one input, the LFE out of my denon receiver.

My amps are all at the three o'clock position on their volume knobs. When calibrating using Audyssey, my denon says we need to lower the subs volume to calibrate my subs.....

Would you lower the Mini's input or output, its asking for about a -10db adjustment.....i went with the input
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post #3603 of 3711 Old 05-24-2016, 06:13 AM
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I would maximize the voltage on the input and output voltage as much as possible on the 2x4.
And if you still need to drop the level I would probably do it on the output instead of the input.
I would want as hot of a signal (without clipping) to the 2x4.
And by the way, your knobs on the amp are not volume knobs, but input sensitivity knobs.
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post #3604 of 3711 Old 05-24-2016, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post
I use a Mini2x4 balanced for my subs, the Mini is connected to all four outputs and i use just one input, the LFE out of my denon receiver.

My amps are all at the three o'clock position on their volume knobs. When calibrating using Audyssey, my denon says we need to lower the subs volume to calibrate my subs.....

Would you lower the Mini's input or output, its asking for about a -10db adjustment.....i went with the input
In my case, the input and output controls on the 2x4 are left in the max positions. I adjust the gain controls on the sub amps in order to reach the desired combined level appropriate for the calibration. And when I adjust the sub gain controls, I make sure each sub is gain-matched. The guide linked in my sig explains my approach.
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post #3605 of 3711 Old 05-24-2016, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
I would maximize the voltage on the input and output voltage as much as possible on the 2x4.
And if you still need to drop the level I would probably do it on the output instead of the input.
I would want as hot of a signal (without clipping) to the 2x4.
And by the way, your knobs on the amp are not volume knobs, but input sensitivity knobs.
Ok, right, they are input sensitivity knobs (i just replaced all of them), gotcha! I never did a realtime check to see what the input was measuring during a movie on the MiniDSP.....

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In my case, the input and output controls on the 2x4 are left in the max positions. I adjust the gain controls on the sub amps in order to reach the desired combined level appropriate for the calibration. And when I adjust the sub gain controls, I make sure each sub is gain-matched. The guide linked in my sig explains my approach.
Looks like i will be readjusting the sub amps inputs, thanx guys

Last edited by kgveteran; 05-24-2016 at 07:01 AM.
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post #3606 of 3711 Old 05-24-2016, 07:16 AM
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It's generally good to keep the signals as hot as possible without clipping.
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post #3607 of 3711 Old 05-24-2016, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. Electric wiz View Post
it's generally good to keep the signals as hot as possible without clipping.
10-4
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post #3608 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 03:35 PM
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I finally got my IB sub going yesterday.
So far, without any tuning it sounds pretty amazing. Bottom end for days.
Here's the first graphs. Haven't done anything yet to tune (no gain matching, etc.)



I have a couple of questions though. When I go to gain match the two manifolds do I use the 0 degree calibration file?
My subs are in the ceiling, not perfectly horizontal.
Also, on my receiver do I need to have the master volume at whatever level I usually listen to movies and/or music (or do I set it to 0.0)?
My Sub trim is set to 0.0.
In your guide where you say to set level so that you get 75db at the MLP, do you mean -75db in the "Make a Measurement", then hit the "Check Levels" button?
If it's supposed to be 75db (and not -75 db) then this test tone is going to be super loud (mine is currently showing -35db and it's already pretty loud)!
Does this make sense?

Last edited by Mr. Electric Wiz; 05-31-2016 at 04:34 PM.
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post #3609 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
I finally got my IB sub going yesterday.
So far, without any tuning it sounds pretty amazing. Bottom end for days.
Here's the first graphs. Haven't done anything yet to tune (no gain matching, etc.)



I have a couple of questions though. When I go to gain match the two manifolds do I use the 0 degree calibration file?
My subs are in the ceiling, not perfectly horizontal.
Also, on my receiver do I need to have the master volume at whatever level I usually listen to movies and/or music (or do I set it to 0.0)?
My Sub trim is set to 0.0.
In your guide where you say to set level so that you get 75db at the MLP, do you mean -75db in the "Make a Measurement", then hit the "Check Levels" button?
If it's supposed to be 75db (and not -75 db) then this test tone is going to be super loud (mine is currently showing -35db and it's already pretty loud)!
Does this make sense?
No, it is not making sense to me. "-35" sounds like a setting on the AVR master volume. +75dB is a level measurement, taken with a SPL meter (either the REW SPL meter, or a hand-held meter). +75dB is not very loud. "Reference Level" is 105dB, which is pretty loud.

I am not sure which section of the guide refers to a level of 75dB. If I were to guess, I would say it is referring to the desired sub level measured at the MLP. It has nothing to do with REW measurement levels, which would typically be in the 75-100dB range, most often 80 or 90dB.

If I have't answered your questions, please re-state them and I will try again. BTW, I have no experience with the type of subs you have.
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post #3610 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 05:51 PM
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Thanks Jerry. I think I know now where the crossed wires are.
I think this is the ordering.
1) set the master volume of the AVR where I normally listen, -18 typically.
2) play the SW test tone from the AVR setup screen. In the speaker levels section.
3) using the SPL meter in REW, set the gain in the amp so that they are matched, as measured near field, and having a combined SPL of 75db at MLP.

I was looking initially in "check levels" in REW where you play the tone from within there. In that check levels screen you are seeing the db levels in FS.
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post #3611 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Thanks Jerry. I think I know now where the crossed wires are.
I think this is the ordering.
1) set the master volume of the AVR where I normally listen, -18 typically.
2) play the SW test tone from the AVR setup screen. In the speaker levels section.
3) using the SPL meter in REW, set the gain in the amp so that they are matched, as measured near field, and having a combined SPL of 75db at MLP.

I was looking initially in "check levels" in REW where you play the tone from within there. In that check levels screen you are seeing the db levels in FS.
My AVR (Marantz) has speaker level-setting test tones. However, when the tones are played, the AVR master volume must be raised to zero in order for the tones to be loud enough to accurately produce 75dB at the MLP. Not sure why you are setting the AVR MV to -18, unless your AVR test tones operate differently than Marantz/Denon AVR's.

So, start the test tone, raise the AVR MV to zero, place the REW mic in the MLP at ear level pointed towards the ceiling, open the REW SPL meter, and then adjust the gain controls on the sub until the REW SPL meter shows 75dB.
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post #3612 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 06:13 PM
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Okay, I've just done that.
The master volume does not appear to do anything when the test tone is being played.
I guess maybe Pioneer just sets the volume to 0.0 when speaker level adjustments are happening.
This is a Pioneer receiver, which matters I guess.
The gain knobs on my iNuke amp are roughly the 9 o'clock position (which seems really low).

Last edited by Mr. Electric Wiz; 05-31-2016 at 06:21 PM.
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post #3613 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Okay, I've just done that.
The master volume does not appear to do anything when the test tone is being played.
I guess maybe Pioneer just sets the volume to 0.0 when speaker level adjustments are happening.
This is a Pioneer receiver, which matters I guess.
The gain knobs on my iNuke amp are roughly the 9 o'clock position (which seems really low).
Yes, that is not unusual. Earlier versions of Marantz/Denon AVR's output the test ones automatically at zero MV. Only recently did they change by allowing the test tones to be produced at lower levels, why I don't know.

Sounds like you have the sub output levels set properly. Next step would be to run the room correction software, which should align sub levels with the mains.
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post #3614 of 3711 Old 05-31-2016, 08:16 PM
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What's strange is that when I set the MLP position to be 75db, I had to up the gain on the amp in order for my MCACC calibration to work.
I ended up moving both gain knobs up in the same increments so that when calibration ran my sub level was set at -2.0.
I hope this is correct.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
What's strange is that when I set the MLP position to be 75db, I had to up the gain on the amp in order for my MCACC calibration to work.
I ended up moving both gain knobs up in the same increments so that when calibration ran my sub level was set at -2.0.
I hope this is correct.

Curious what amp you are using? I finished my IB install on Sunday night but haven't put the miniDSP in the chain yet so im interested how you make out. I concur the low end on an IB is awesome, and Ive done nothing but run Audyssey.
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post #3616 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 04:58 AM
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INuke 3000 (non dsp).
I have two manifolds with 2x FiCar 18" each, for a total of 4. Each manifold is in the front and rear of the room in the vaulted ceiling.

Last night I gain matched the manifolds, and time aligned them.

It was a little irritating that MCACC (Pioneer room correction) turned down the levels so much on the sub.
I need to go back in and raise the level again in the receiver, because I'm a bass head.

So far so good.
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post #3617 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 05:04 AM
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On time alignment, my front manifold is 12'7" (151") from the MLP, and the rear is 8'4"(100") from the MLP.
This resulted in 3.77 for my rear delay. The measurement in MiniDSP in this section is in meters, but I measured in inches.
I guess this is fine.

Jerry, is the reason for targeting 75db with the gain matching just to have a singular target to shoot for when matching multiple subs?
I had to raise the gain on the amp quite a bit (much more than 75db) for MCACC calibration to work.
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post #3618 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 05:43 AM
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Is this the correct settings to use for the REW SQL meter?
I think there might be a discrepancy, because I think MCACC needs the sub to be at 75db to run, but when I used the SPL meter to measure levels it had 75db much lower in volume.
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post #3619 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
On time alignment, my front manifold is 12'7" (151") from the MLP, and the rear is 8'4"(100") from the MLP.
This resulted in 3.77 for my rear delay. The measurement in MiniDSP in this section is in meters, but I measured in inches.
I guess this is fine.

Jerry, is the reason for targeting 75db with the gain matching just to have a singular target to shoot for when matching multiple subs?
I had to raise the gain on the amp quite a bit (much more than 75db) for MCACC calibration to work.
The target for the combined sub level is to provide room correction with the proper starting levels. Audyssey, for example, has a sub level test at the beginning of the calibration routine, and it expects the sub levels to be close to 75dB. Dirac Live on the MiniDSP 88A (which is what I am using) has a level-setting screen that allows the combined sub level to be set. As part of the calibration process, the software will then adjust the combined sub level up or down to match the other speakers. So, 75dB is simply a starting point.

I am not familiar with how MCACC works, but I would think that the final sub level should be balanced with the other speakers. You should measure the speaker levels using the REW SPL when the calibration completes. All speakers should be pretty close to 75dB using the AVR test tones. If the sub level is considerably lower, then I don't know what is happening, but there is nothing wrong with using the AVR sub channel trim to raise the level to what you sound pleasing. For many people, the sub channel playing at 75dB is not loud enough, so adjusting it to preference would be recommended.
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post #3620 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Is this the correct settings to use for the REW SQL meter?
I think there might be a discrepancy, because I think MCACC needs the sub to be at 75db to run, but when I used the SPL meter to measure levels it had 75db much lower in volume.
Are you using a mic calibration file with a sensitivity parameter? To test this, click on the"calibrate" button. If there is a sensitivity parameter in use, you will get a pop-up message saying that a calibration is not required for your mic. If you don't get this message, then read the section on mic calibration files in the REW guide linked in my sig.

If the sensitivity parameter is in use, then there are no other settings associated with the SPL meter that are required. If no sensitivity parameter is configured, then the mic must be manually calibrated, also covered in the guide.
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post #3621 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 07:47 AM
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The mic is a Cross Spectrum UMIK-1, which has a sensitivity entry entered on the top row of the file.
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post #3622 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 05:03 PM
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Subs time aligned and gain matched:

This is with my sub crossed over at 80.
Nasty dip at 32 and 65.
Going to try eq'ing next, tame mountains not valleys.
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post #3623 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Subs time aligned and gain matched:

This is with my sub crossed over at 80.
Nasty dip at 32 and 65.
Going to try eq'ing next, tame mountains not valleys.
You can use REW to assess whether the dips are non-minimum phase. If yes, then you are correct, attempting to pull up the dips would be futile. However, if minimum phase, then EQ may provide some relief.

I guess if the subs are in the ceiling, moving them around is not an option.
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post #3624 of 3711 Old 06-01-2016, 05:38 PM
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Another graph, this time with the LF cutoff at 5 Hz and a rising shelf from 5 to 45 Hz.
Going to give it a listen now, but looking decent.
What do you guys think?
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post #3625 of 3711 Old 06-02-2016, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Another graph, this time with the LF cutoff at 5 Hz and a rising shelf from 5 to 45 Hz.
Going to give it a listen now, but looking decent.
What do you guys think?
Kind of hard to tell with the limits you have on that graph, but you still have some pretty significant swings in the response (+/-5dB or more).

Can you re-post that graph with 5dB steps on the left side? Why are you measuring at such ear-splitting levels (120dB)? Or, is your SPL not calibrated??

No need to include Mic Cal or Phase on the graph.
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I'm slowly starting to figure out how to use REW.
I was measuring with the MV on my receiver at 0.0.
If that's not necessary I will lower the volume.
I'm using the UMIK-1 usb mic, so I don't need to calibrate the SPL right?
Also, is it better to look at the frequency steps logarithmically or not?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
I'm slowly starting to figure out how to use REW.
I was measuring with the MV on my receiver at 0.0.
If that's not necessary I will lower the volume.
I'm using the UMIK-1 usb mic, so I don't need to calibrate the SPL right?
Also, is it better to look at the frequency steps logarithmically or not?
MV at zero is likely to be way too loud. There is no need to measure at such high levels. 85dB is a perfectly good measurement level. To set the level:

1. Open the REW SPL tool.
2. Open the REW signal generator and set it for the center channel (HDMI3).
3. Select White Noise, Sub Cal, and set the output to -12dBFS.
4. Click the Play button to output the tone.
5. Click the red button in the SPL to observe the loudness of the tone.
6. Adjust AVR MV until the output level is 85dB. Make a note of the MV setting for future use.
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post #3628 of 3711 Old 06-02-2016, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
I'm slowly starting to figure out how to use REW.
I was measuring with the MV on my receiver at 0.0.
If that's not necessary I will lower the volume.
I'm using the UMIK-1 usb mic, so I don't need to calibrate the SPL right?
Also, is it better to look at the frequency steps logarithmically or not?
Like Jerry said, no need to blow your eardrums to get accurate measurements.

If your UMIK has a sensitivity factor in the cal file, and you've loaded the cal file...no, there is no need to calibrate SPL. In fact, REW will not let you if you have a sens factor in your cal file.

You want Logarithmic not Linear.
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post #3629 of 3711 Old 06-02-2016, 03:54 PM
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I just measured the max. voltage on the Subwoofer 1 output on my Pioneer Elite SC-65, which is 1.2 volts.
This is at MV0.0 playing a 60Hz tone.
Sure am glad I bought the balanced version. I made sure my jumpers were set to 2V and not .9V.
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post #3630 of 3711 Old 06-02-2016, 05:19 PM
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Something weird is going on with my UMIK-1.
What level should the mic volume be Windows XP?
It's obviously somewhere between all the way up and all the way down...
At the bottom of the mic volume it says UMIK-1 12db gain if that matters.
I don't have another SPL meter (radio shack) to verify anything with.
How do I get the mic volume set without another SPL meter?
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