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post #901 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 06:59 AM
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Looks like only the 4x10 operates at 96khz. The 10x10 is at 48khz. It will likely not be an audible issue.

The 4x10 doesn't have enough inputs for you and I'm not sure the 10x10 will work for you either, unless you were to split the signals. Unless I'm not understanding the datasheet...

From what I can tell with the 10x10:

Input one - PEQ - LP/HP filters - more PEQ - gain/phase/delay/comp - Out 1

If input 1 was your front left channel, I don't see how you could split it up into mains/MBM. If you wanted the MiniDSP to perform the sub crossover, this would add to the difficulty. I guess if you split the front left input into multiples, you could use the LP/HP filters to carve each input to the appropriate band. But without additional hardware, I'm not sure if this would mean too little input voltage to the MiniDSP.

I'm starting to think you were on the right track with the 2 balanced 2x4's. I think you'd be able to run all three subs from the second 2x4.
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post #902 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Equipment list: [shorthand added]

Denon AVR-4311 receiver
Revel F52 tower speakers - connected to Emotiva XPA-2 amp
DIY sealed LMS ULtra 5400 sub x2 - connected to QSC 5050 amp [S1]
Revel B15a sub - active sub [S2]
DIY JL Audio 10w7 sealed sub x2 - connected to Behringer EPX4000 amp [S3]
***
Option 1 - get two balanced 2x4 units. One for the two or possibly three subs and the other for the L/R speakers and MBM integration.
Option 2 - get one balanced 8x8 unit to do all the above.

Dude, you're making this way too complicated, and IMO over processing. And introducing too many possibilities for noise to get into your mains.

First thing, I highly doubt the 10W7's will make competent "MBM's." Too much inductance, so they don't go high at all. They're spectacular small deep bass pumps - great suspension linearity, class-leading motor linearity - but they're very much one-trick ponies. Your other two subs are much better performers in the 80-120Hz range.

Second, pretend you only have one sub out. Audyssey handles multiple subwoofers so badly, that the better course of action is to merely pretend it doesn't have any multisub capabilities at all.

Third, your mains are good enough that you shouldn't need any processing to them beyond what Audyssey provides. Though you may want to but an Audyssey Pro license and buy/borrow a Pro kit, so you can eliminate that infernal Audyssey "crappy speaker compensation" midrange notch.

What I'd recommend is just buying one balanced 2x4 miniDSP, hooking it between the AVR and the three subs. If you don't have already measurement gear, spend the balance on FuzzMeasure Pro, an ART USB Dual Pre, a tripod, and a calibrated mike from Cross Spectrum Labs. (Or Omnimic from PE, if you're a not-a-Mac guy.) If you do, buy tickets to musical performances, or recordings, with the surplus disposable income.

What I would do is take your mains, run them in LFE+Main mode, set the sub crossover in the AVR to maybe 120-150Hz, and follow Geddes' advice as to sub calibration. Start with the mains running, then fold in S1, then S2, and lastly just use the S3 to increase extreme ULF (lowpass at maybe 40-50Hz).

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post #903 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 08:45 AM
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In what way does Audyssey handle dual subwoofers in such a bad way that you shouldn't use the dual sub option? This is the first I've read of such a defect in Audyssey XT32.
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post #904 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

In what way does Audyssey handle dual subwoofers in such a bad way that you shouldn't use the dual sub option? This is the first I've read of such a defect in Audyssey XT32.

All Audyssey does is level-match them (a horrible idea, obviously) and delays (fine). Then it pings them as one. IOW, it presumes use of identical subs.

A well-designed system will probably not have all of the subs playing at the same level.

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post #905 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 09:06 AM
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The level matching is easy to rectify, at least if your subs' amps have level controls. I have one set a couple of db louder than the other. The other functions it performs seem to be ok given my lack of knowledge. I've run the Audyssey setup and am quite pleased with the results for my subs.
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post #906 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

The level matching is easy to rectify, at least if your subs' amps have level controls.***

Why bother "rectifying" anything, when one can just do things properly from the start by using one of the sub outs and manually setting up the subs from there?

If anything, going in and fixing what Audyssey's done is going to take more work than starting from one output. Also, using one output will allow the use of one miniDSP with the Advanced 4-way plugin, whereas using two is almost twice as expensive (one plugin, one shipping fee, two miniDSP's).

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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I've run the Audyssey setup and am quite pleased with the results for my subs.

Audyssey (and ARC) have consistently produced inferior results for me, compared to a manual setup using the Geddes procedure. They assume that the interaction between subs and mains in the crossover region is predictable, when in reality it's not. So they tend to botch the crossover region. They do better than the antiquated approach of "level matching," with an SPL meter, true.

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post #907 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 09:56 AM
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Actually, one miniDSP handles two subs quite well. I have three miniDSPs and a balanced one handles the HPF for the subs. Admittedly they should test and equalize both subs separately. I could, if I didn't like the job Audyssey XT32 did, equalize them individually with REW. But Audyssey, IMHO, works better than no dual sub accommodation at all.
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post #908 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Actually, one miniDSP handles two subs quite well.

Actually, one miniDSP handles up to four subs quite well.

Which is my point: he only needs one miniDSP to optimize a system with the components he's listed. Anything more is going to more likely than not harm things, and at best will not materially improve things compared to the simpler, better solution of a single miniDSP, running the Advanced 4-way plugin, connected to one of his AVR's sub preouts, with all of the sub amps driven by the miniDSP.

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But Audyssey, IMHO, works better than no dual sub accommodation at all.

I disagree. Running all the subs (up to 4, at least) off of one sub-out and EQ'ing them with a miniDSP or similar processor is a superior solution to letting Audyssey make a hack of things. More time consuming, but superior.

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post #909 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 11:41 AM
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Is there a good explanation anywhere of what you would do for 1 DSP/4 subs? I admit the minidsp docs confuse me

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #910 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

Is there a good explanation anywhere of what you would do for 1 DSP/4 subs? I admit the minidsp docs confuse me

I don't know where to point to for you. One 2x4 minidsp has two in and four out. I run the dual sub outputs of my pre-pro to each of the inputs of the miniDSP. Using the 2 way advanced plug-in you can adjust a HPF, a LPF, many parametric equalizers, shelf and peak filters, and a limited time delay. These functions are available on all four of the outputs, allowing you to adjust all parameters for each out to the subs.
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post #911 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 12:28 PM
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I showed proof that Audyssey caused HD by boosting a null. I presented graphs and the boys shot it to hell, so goes the web, i gave up. The fan boys came out of the woodwork haha.

I will be using one DSP to EQ my main subwoofer system of quad 15's, and three tuning subs..wish me luck :0)
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post #912 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

Is there a good explanation anywhere of what you would do for 1 DSP/4 subs? I admit the minidsp docs confuse me

One miniDSP. One four way advanced plugin. One lead from the sub-out to the miniDSP in (you pick which input, but the software can only handle one). That gives you parametric EQ and global level control on the input, and separate xover/delay/level/PEQ for each output.

The software makes it very easy to do. At least on a Mac. I can't speak to using their software on a not-a-Mac.

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post #913 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

One miniDSP. One four way advanced plugin. One lead from the sub-out to the miniDSP in (you pick which input, but the software can only handle one). That gives you parametric EQ and global level control on the input, and separate xover/delay/level/PEQ for each output.

The software makes it very easy to do. At least on a Mac. I can't speak to using their software on a not-a-Mac.

Yes, using the software is very user friendly on PCs, I cannot speak for Macs.
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post #914 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 01:28 PM
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Thanks guys, I have a clone amp and some more subs coming and I need to pick one up

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #915 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 02:18 PM
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So hopefully I ordered the right thing... 2x4 minidsp Rev B and the 4way advanced software I have an Onkyo 5008 with XT32. I would like to let XT32 handle the other speakers and just use the minidsp for my 4 subs. So... suggestions? Should I run XT32 without the subs on and then turn the subs on and use the minidsp? Or should I let xt32 run as is and then correct after? And should I use both sub outputs on the receiver or just one?

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #916 of 2467 Old 02-24-2012, 07:54 PM
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post #917 of 2467 Old 02-25-2012, 04:53 AM
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Clone amp

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #918 of 2467 Old 02-25-2012, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

So hopefully I ordered the right thing... 2x4 minidsp Rev B and the 4way advanced software I have an Onkyo 5008 with XT32. I would like to let XT32 handle the other speakers and just use the minidsp for my 4 subs. So... suggestions? Should I run XT32 without the subs on and then turn the subs on and use the minidsp? Or should I let xt32 run as is and then correct after? And should I use both sub outputs on the receiver or just one?

Adjust the miniDSP, then, leaving the subs turned on, run XT32. You would want the effects of the miniDSPs to be there for XT32 to adjust delay and such. I use the balanced miniDSP just for HPF and the internal crossover of the 5508.
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post #919 of 2467 Old 02-25-2012, 06:20 AM
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Does anyone sell the correct cables for the balanced outputs? That is bare ends for the pheonix side and male XLR on the other. Or is everybody just chopping off the female side?
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post #920 of 2467 Old 02-25-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Does anyone sell the correct cables for the balanced outputs? That is bare ends for the pheonix side and male XLR on the other. Or is everybody just chopping off the female side?

I got some from a place in Iowa. They had the right type of connectors but were mis-wired. It's just as easy to make your own by "chopping off" one end.
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post #921 of 2467 Old 02-26-2012, 03:06 PM
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Seems to me the model to get is the balanced version, being its a voltage issue. Yup, choppin is the way to go....
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post #922 of 2467 Old 02-26-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Adjust the miniDSP, then, leaving the subs turned on, run XT32. You would want the effects of the miniDSPs to be there for XT32 to adjust delay and such. I use the balanced miniDSP just for HPF and the internal crossover of the 5508.

Thanks, appreciate it. Wonder if I should have gone with the balanced version.

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #923 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 06:01 AM
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Wonder if I should have gone with the balanced version.

Same boat here. I have the unbalanced version and just ordered up the balanced version. Need more output voltage to match my QSC amp. Their tech support was very helpful on the forums.
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post #924 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

Thanks, appreciate it. Wonder if I should have gone with the balanced version.

ricci says that 2v isnt enough to drive most pro amps apparently... even though this thread says otherwise
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post #925 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

ricci says that 2v isnt enough to drive most pro amps apparently... even though this thread says otherwise

I believe you might have misinterpreted. Every pro amp that I have seen takes 2v input and down. I think what Ricci was saying is that hte unbalanced was not enough to drive a pro amp, which is quite true, even with boost built into your eqing.

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post #926 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 12:53 PM
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Don't the current MiniDSP's have a switch on them to set to either the high or low voltage? I haven't looked on mine but I know it was on the spec sheet for it.
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post #927 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

Don't the current MiniDSP's have a switch on them to set to either the high or low voltage? I haven't looked on mine but I know it was on the spec sheet for it.

The jumper is for input sensitivity, not output voltage. If you need more output voltage you need the balanced version.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

The jumper is for input sensitivity, not output voltage. If you need more output voltage you need the balanced version.

Yes, balanced will give you 2v output voltage, and you can jumper the input to whether you are getting a pro (2v) or consumer (.9v) input voltage. on the unbalanced version, it will only want .9v in and .9v out which will not drive a pro amp to full output potential.

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post #929 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think what Ricci was saying is that hte unbalanced was not enough to drive a pro amp, which is quite true, even with boost built into your eqing.

That's an overgeneralization; for example my IPR 3000 needs only .775 V for full power.

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post #930 of 2467 Old 02-29-2012, 01:23 PM
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That's an overgeneralization; for example my IPR 3000 needs only .775 V for full power.

I should have said "generally speaking then" as ive had three different pro amps so far and they all have needed between 1.4 and 1.9v input sens to operate to full capability. they might have worked FINE at .775, but would need full pro signal to go full out.

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