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post #1 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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After doing some more searching for suitable drivers and chatting with Ricci a few times I have settled on trying to design a low tuned box with AE TD 15"s. My question to anyone, instead of always PMing Ricci, is how low of a tune can I reasonably get out of two 15's in a 230l box?

I am trying to see how low can I go. I know they wont be as efficient and all I am just trying to see how low they can operate.

I am trying to keep the box no bigger than 32x25x24". Now if I HAVE to go bigger I will I am just exploring ideas here.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:23 PM
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Which version of the TD15 are you working with?

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #3 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:35 PM
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"Which version of the TD15 are you working with?"

apparently he wants the td15x's. 8 cubic feet tuned to 25hz. -3db is around 30hz. max spl depends on his amp.

iirc, john j. built something like this as full range mains for a church and they kicked butt in that application.

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post #4 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:40 PM
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I bet they did!

I can't get two to fit in 230liters and play well low. Maybe 230liters PER driver. That would work and extend very low.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #5 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I had wanted to stick with Ricci's suggestion of the TD15s but I honestly dont know anything about the other models.

I have read some of the other threads by others on here and see that the TD15x I believe seems to be a very high sq driver slightly above the others but like I said I have limited knowledge on the other models.

I am making this for a bass guitar rig. I have gathered information for a while in seeing what I would like to have in a box design as far as frequencies able to reproduce. I just want to see if I can use these AE drivers and see which would be the best for very low tuning.

I tried to post this on the HTforum and started to get criticized on how I dont need that and I should only have this. BLAH BLAH BLAH. Thankfully Ricci chimed in with a little support so I figured I would just stick with posting questions like these on this forum.

So TD15s or what ever would be suitable for the lowest of tunings say the lowest being 15hz.
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post #6 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:47 PM
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i misread the post. two drivers per enclosure?

thanks scott for correcting me. sometimes i don't seem to be able to read.

the td15h's work better in smaller enclosures, but i'd still juice it out to 12 cubic feet and tune it to 22hz in that case.

in order to realize their potential, you'd need something around 1000 watts per enclosure.

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post #7 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:50 PM
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what is the lowest note that you will hit on your bass guitar? it isn't going to be 15hz.

also, don't forget the top end for instrument amps. the low inductance of the ae speakers is where this will really help. top end rolloff is upwards of 4-5khz depending on the driver selected.

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post #8 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 05:58 PM
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sorry for so many back to back posts, but another consideration is that the td15"s" will ultimately be best for the very bottom end, but the td15"h" will be better through the upper bass/lower midrange, which is where i suspect is where 95% of your requirements are. i get sh_t for mentioning it over and over again, but low qes drivers are preferred for such an application. td15h's are qes=0.27. that is low. among the old school best bass drivers included jbl e145's, massive motor/light moving mass.

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post #9 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Lowest string ever I will play would be a low G00.12.98hz or whatever. Anyways I will mainly just have the low B00 on my 8 string bass. That is 15.47hz

Anyways after having someone do some more testing of actual frequencies being reproduced I was amazed at the lower content. The open string B00 was :
I used Audition on the B00 ( 15.44 Hz fundamental )

The energy distribution is as follows:
15.47Hz -55.21db * This is close to the fundamental
19.5Hz -46.72db 1st peak approx 9db higher
21.53Hz -56.14db
30.28Hz -45.3db Peak
40.37Hz -44.93db Peak
52.48Hz -43.95db Peak
64.59Hz -43.86db Peak
76.71Hz -45.74db Peak
90.71Hz -47.54db Peak
103.6Hz -48.8db Peak

Lots of energy @ 19.5Hz and above peaks
Now I am not here to argue about what I would need just trying to see what if it is possible to tune very low with the whatever S or H driver.

And I would be putting 2 drivers into the box size I mentioned earlier. As far as reproducing everything up and above the bottom hz I figured I would build a sub boz and a regular box similar to the Accugroove Tri115. Ricci mentioned I could just use 4 of these S drivers and box size according to whatever tuning but I honestly wont be able to afford 4 of these drivers.

I am also trying to keep the sub cab as small as I can with in respect to tuning. I am trying to still have a portable cabinet if I can. I dont want a fridge size cabinet.
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post #10 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 06:18 PM
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Yup. I'd agree with you on all those points, LTD. Really if this is just for bass guitar you don't need to go much lower than 30hz. EDIT: ah, i see you want to go well below 20hz. Wow, you're playing 12hz notes on a bass guitar? Is this live music? Holy s**t! Umm.... 12hz in 230 liters. *cringe* That's a tough cookie to crack.

Go with the 'h' model. Two of them fit perfectly (almost too convenient how well it modeled on the first try) in a 230 liter cab tuned to 30hz. This is with an 8" diameter port that is ~12" long. I wouldn't tune much lower than 27hz in this sized enclosure. You'll need to enlarge the enclosure a bit for a lower tune.

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post #11 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 08:08 PM
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how freak'n big is your bass such that it has a fundamental at 15hz (wouldn't that imply a string about 38 feet long)?

just curious what you have got going there.

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post #12 of 83 Old 10-12-2010, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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The string is a .214 gauge string on a 35" scale. Villex pickups and an Audere preamps which is usable 5hz and up. Other than that it is just choice woods used in the neck and thats about it. I only am doing what others have been doing for awhile now.

My goal was to build something that would sound similar and reach further than the Accurgoove Whappo Grande:
http://accugroove.com/
and PJB 16H
http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=25

Now I would love to build my own 16H but that gets very expensive. And at 230 pounds for a cabinet that is freek'n way to heavy. And the last reason is all these cabs cost well over 3000 for either of them and I know I can build something that would be cheaper if I tried.

16H would be fun but Phil makes his own drivers and I cant anything that would match up and be cost effective.
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post #13 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 06:49 AM
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Do you have a picture of this bass? Ican't believe that you,d be able to tune that low with a realistic to use bass guitar. Thats pipe organ territory. Even a 7string bass which is just crazy and very few people play, only comes in at about a 25hz fundamental. Also the fundamental of each note is usually lower in volume than the 2nd harmonic. If you truly need response that low you'll need to go sealed and just use an LT boost with a crap load of power. Otherwise the cabs will be huge. Either that or you'll need to make a 2 or 3 way design. Td drivers are not going to be good at <30hz. I mentioned them because the VAST majority of bass guitar sound is well above 50hz and up to about 4khz with harmonics. I prefer to use no crossover and keep a single driver handling fullrange duties. I think it sounds more natural. I would be tuning the td's to the 30-35hz range though to get most of drop A tuning though. Any deeper is problematic.
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post #14 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Well so far there is a Bag End sub that is a sealed 18" driver that uses a processor that aids in boosting to 8hz. I could try and build something like that but just needed to know what type of driver could handle this low hz operation.

Garry Goodman makes the strings and he has a 12/13 string bass. His website is:

http://www.garrygoodman.com/octave4plus.com.htm

There he has recording of his bass with some these low tuning strings. He used his bass and plug right into the recording console for the recording. Yves Carbonne is another who plays a 12 string bass with the lowest string being a low B00. 15.4hz. Jean Baudin is another who play a 12 strings bass with the same strings. Al Caldwell(11 string), Stew Mckinsey (10 string,) and many others who I could name.

Alot of people have just used high quality headphones to hear these notes. Others have the money and have the Whappo Grande or Bag End. I dont know of anyone who has the 16H

But like I said I am trying to make this thing myself because I cant afford the Grande, 16h or the Bag End. SO I will probably make a Accugroove Tri115 replica ousing the TD15s tuning that at 30hz with a single 15". BUT the sub I will have to try and see what I can use and have you guys chime in to help with driver selection.
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post #15 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 08:15 AM
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You will want to go sealed and you'll want to go with plenty of power then that can equalize up the low end roll off. You'll be looking at making a 2 way at a minimum so you'll need to look into crossover design as well. No driver handles equalized 15hz well and also 2khz.
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post #16 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 08:18 AM
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Why not buy the AV15H instead...its close to the sensitivity of the TD15S and it plays nicer down low??

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post #17 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 08:50 AM
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Yeah, they are starting to push really low at the bass fringes.

The Bagend cabs are OK, but will will get no volume from one. In a studio setting you might be able to get away with one, I would want at least two. For live performances 8 would do for a small gig.

The Whappo Grande, and 16H aren't that big a deal either. The WG is good for F#0. It is just a 21" driver in an enclosure with an F3 ~20Hz. The 16H is a RLH with a low corner ~30-35Hz. You would still really want two here live, if you really do much low low bass.

Ricci is right about the sealed driver having a hard time going that low and high at the same time. If you will look the WG is only rated for up to 400Hz.

Instrument subs are not like the loudspeaker most of these guys build, so you are not going to get a lot of good help here. Learn WinISD Pro, and just start throwing 21" drivers into a sealed enclosure you can live with. Look at 18Sound, B&C, Beyma, the usuals, and the the Peavy one as well. Pick the one with the flattest curve down to ~20Hz. If the Le is ~2 or lower you could do alright with just the 21". If it is over 3 you will need another driver. Just build another small cab to place on top of the 21" using a cheap 12" guitar driver. All you will need is to add a capacitor to it, set to ~300Hz, and an inductor to the 21" to work around the same Hz. Hook your pre-amp up to a two channel amp, attach each cab to a different channel, and dial in the highs with the amps attenuators.

Good luck.
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post #18 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Do you have a picture of this bass? Ican't believe that you,d be able to tune that low with a realistic to use bass guitar. Thats pipe organ territory. Even a 7string bass which is just crazy and very few people play, only comes in at about a 25hz fundamental. Also the fundamental of each note is usually lower in volume than the 2nd harmonic. If you truly need response that low you'll need to go sealed and just use an LT boost with a crap load of power. Otherwise the cabs will be huge. Either that or you'll need to make a 2 or 3 way design. Td drivers are not going to be good at <30hz. I mentioned them because the VAST majority of bass guitar sound is well above 50hz and up to about 4khz with harmonics. I prefer to use no crossover and keep a single driver handling fullrange duties. I think it sounds more natural. I would be tuning the td's to the 30-35hz range though to get most of drop A tuning though. Any deeper is problematic.

Just curious. Are you saying that a bass guitar speaker needs to run from 25Hz up to 4KHz?

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post #19 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 10:56 AM
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That's how I would do it and I don't even play an instument. Even a bass guitar has plenty of info going on high up. Not exactly related but Ricci did a plot on a bass drum and that had stuff going up past 10k, iirc.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #20 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 11:01 AM
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Normal tuning E1- 41.2Hz
Dropped
D1- 36.7Hz
B0- 30.9Hz
Sub
B00-15.4Hz

Highest fundamentals top out ~350-400Hz for most bass versions.

Harmonics are strong through ~6kHz. Most everything above 1kHz is from plucking/strumming/slapping. ~4Hz is a nice target.
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post #21 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 03:01 PM
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i learn something everyday. i did not know that by adding 4 times the mass to a string that it would cut the fundamental in half.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...string.html#c4

i have wondered for a long, long time why guitar strings had wire wrapped around them instead of just being thicker wire. apparently, this is how mass is added to the string without increase it's tension.

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post #22 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 03:05 PM
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also, the bag end sub isn't flat to 8hz in order to play 8hz. it is to time align all the higher bass frequencies with the mains. the internal limiter will shut down the 8hz spl long before it would fill a room during a live performance, unless you had a lot of them.

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post #23 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I dont know exactly how high I will end up going for my instrument cab. I have played on cabs that play to 16khz and I like the sound of them much better than the other cabs that are directed towards "bass guitar."

Pretty much if I can play music through it and it sounds pretty good then thats the frequencies I would like to reproduce for my bass cab. I know I wont be playing frequencies that high but to me there is a huge difference in sound when the cab can play that high.

I was thinking of building 2 cabs also. One cab obviously the sub and the other cab would be a full range cab on top/ So I could use the full range cab when I am using my standard 6 string and when needed bring out the sub.

I have heard others who have played their Bag End INFRA 18 cabs and they all say the same about wanting atleast 2 of them. They make a 21 also but i honestly think I could build something that would be to my liking. PLUS researching and learning what I can from all of you makes it all worth while.

And am I still searching for pro drives with low Fs?

Most I have seen have higher Fs around 30hz.
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post #24 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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The B&C is the only driver U have found that has a Le under 2.(1.5mH)
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-21SW152-1.htm

18Sound's 21" has a Le or 2.85mH:
http://www.usspeaker.com/eighteensound-21LW1400-1.htm
The other pro audio drivers I look at are over 3mH for Le.
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post #25 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 03:30 PM
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the ae speakers are a good choice for this build because they have a very low inductance, which allows them to play very high up around 4khz or so.

there is an "x" "h" and "s" version. the "h" version has the most motor. it is closest in specs to "guitar speakers". they tend to have almost no xmax--coil is about the same length as the gap. the "h" version kind of expands on many of the benefits, but then trades off some sensitivity for greater xmax. that is what you are looking for with your low tuned guitar cabs.

here is the tradeoff in max spl between a 16hz and 22hz low tuned cab, 12 cubic feet, 2 drivers.



edit: that is with a 500 watt max power setting. i think john j. said that they can handle 1000 watts, but i'm not sure how long.
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post #26 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Pretty much if I can play music through it and it sounds pretty good then thats the frequencies I would like to reproduce for my bass cab. I know I wont be playing frequencies that high but to me there is a huge difference in sound when the cab can play that high.

I feel the same way. What you are after is a good PA cab with extended low range SPL.

Low Le only matters if you are trying to cover everything with one speaker. If you are going to crossover to another cab it isn't a big deal.
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post #27 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 04:30 PM
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"Low Le only matters if you are trying to cover everything with one speaker."

the jury is still out on this one. john j. has posted quite a bit about comparing his td18h to a b&c 18" setup with some guitar music and indicated that the articulation was much better with the td18h. i know it is a report with potential bias, but there may be something going here. maybe the b&c didn't have any le linearizing mechanisms and that is even more important than a low le nominal number.

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post #28 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 04:48 PM
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In this case there is no jury. Frequency roll off is the only qualifier here.

I have never seen the post from him you are referring to, so I can't really comment on them, but as you said there would be a lot of variables there.
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post #29 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 05:08 PM
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"The system we did for Elite Audio here in GB uses each TD18H+ in about 8 cubic foot net tuned just under 30hz. We did a 10" diameter PVC about 13" long. He uses 6 per side for his large system, run off of the Lab Gruppen PLM10000Q. For 1000W range you'd still want a highpass just under 30hz. For higher power use, we taper off the low end starting about 45hz and being 6dB down by 30hz in addition to the highpass. This greatly lowers excursion and gives more ability to play louder at the higher frequencies.

This was the first system where we really got confirmation of how good the TD18's sound. His previous woofers were the B&C 18TBX1000's. The small Elite system had a total of 4 of the B&C woofers. Upon swapping the TD18's in the difference is amazing. My favorite track for bass test is the beginning of Duende by Black Light Syndrome where Tony Levin plays some quick notes. On the B&C's it is simply a rumble that changes frequency. On the TD18's you can clearly hear each note being played individually. He had REALLY overdriven the TD18's one night with 2500W each and with the highpass all the way down to 25hz he had torn surrounds on 4 of the drivers. He swapped the B&C's back in and the difference was even more apparent when going back. In addition to that, he claimed at high levels he had to bring the B&C level back up by 3dB in the processor to stay matched with the mains as power compression on the B&C's was much worse. Anyone in the Green Bay/Appleton area is welcome to come out to hear his system. He runs it 3-4 nights a week. Just did sound for Rusted Root last night.

John"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16874752

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post #30 of 83 Old 10-13-2010, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well it sounds like the td18h is a pretty nice driver but I wouldn't know other wise. I wont be able to test alot of drivers either due to expense of having many different ones. PLUS they are much more expensive here in Australia.

I would use the 21"/18 or what ever for the very low hz. And when it comes to the other cab I am going to do something just like the Tri115 Accugroove.

I will try and have the sub in as small of a box as I can in regards to tuning. In other words I dont want to have a sub that is the size of a 8x10.

The only way I could make a single cab would be if I found a single driver that didn't need a massive box to play what I want then just have a 12 for mid and 6/8" and 1" tweeters for the rest. SO many combination's I wont have anything in stone until I find the bottom driver/s and box size need.
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