Dayton PS220-8 and PS180-8 high efficiency FR drivers at PE - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 11-05-2010, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I’ve been evaluating a couple of samples of the PS220-8, and have designed a MLTL enclosure for it, along with a contour network to provide acceptably flat on axis response.

More details will be forthcoming as they become available, but the short story is: Sexy looks, and pretty decent performance.

There is a thread over at PE.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=220356
Here are my observations thus far:

Fit and finish is excellent, my ad hoc distortion measurements were generally well behaved, and suggest it does quite well in that department. The consistency between the two samples T/S paramters and response plots were excellent, but are somewhat different than the published values. This may suggest some differences in the production run vs. the published specs.

Two other observations:
The phase plug terminates in a sharp point. Use caution around children and other living things. –On the plus side this should tend to protect the wizzer cone.
The magnet assembly is quite massive for a neo. I made the mistake of setting one of the drivers on my test amp, and played bloody hell trying to extricate it. -Some serious magnetic mojo going on there…

What’s a crossover guy doing with FR drivers? Good question. I’ll try to come up with a plausible explanation…

The high sensitivity is intriguing, as well as the minimum phase characteristics. I saw it as an excellent opportunity to see what this high efficiency design hubbub was all about. –And of course I can’t just touch it without doing some sort of passive manipulation of the response…

In spite of the low Q of the driver, I was able to model good low end extension with this driver in a MLTL enclosure. Wayne has again graciously consented to placate my desire for large enclosures and build the prototypes. -But even Wayne needs some time to work his woodworking magic, so currently they are undergoing preliminary voicing while residing in an old pair of 2 way enclosures I had on hand.

How do they sound? Pretty darn good. With only a simple shelving network applied I get a nice pleasing sound with few, if any, audible artifacts. The high frequency extension is quite good on axis, but as would be expected, falls off significantly off axis. Definitely these want to be toed in toward the listener, but the sound in the sweet spot is quite acceptable, verging on excellent. Pairing these with a gainclone or low power tube amp would be the obvious match, as only a couple of watts will push these to quite high SPL’s.
-High fidelity on a shoestring budget…

Stay tuned: The enclosure design and filter network will be ready for dissemination shortly. At roughly 3ft^3, it’s not a diminutive design, but still a reasonably sized floorstander. A hundred bucks may seem a bit steep for a single driver, but when you consider the shelving network will only run about ten bucks, it’s pretty decent for a speaker which will provide an f3 below 40 Hz, and an SPL of 107 dB on only 20 watts.

Curt C
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post #2 of 17 Old 11-05-2010, 09:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc00541 View Post



I've been evaluating a couple of samples of the PS220-8, and have designed a MLTL enclosure for it, along with a contour network to provide acceptably flat on axis response.

More details will be forthcoming as they become available, but the short story is: Sexy looks, and pretty decent performance.

There is a thread over at PE.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=220356
Here are my observations thus far:

Fit and finish is excellent, my ad hoc distortion measurements were generally well behaved, and suggest it does quite well in that department. The consistency between the two samples T/S paramters and response plots were excellent, but are somewhat different than the published values. This may suggest some differences in the production run vs. the published specs.

Two other observations:
The phase plug terminates in a sharp point. Use caution around children and other living things. -On the plus side this should tend to protect the wizzer cone.
The magnet assembly is quite massive for a neo. I made the mistake of setting one of the drivers on my test amp, and played bloody hell trying to extricate it. -Some serious magnetic mojo going on there

What's a crossover guy doing with FR drivers? Good question. I'll try to come up with a plausible explanation

The high sensitivity is intriguing, as well as the minimum phase characteristics. I saw it as an excellent opportunity to see what this high efficiency design hubbub was all about. -And of course I can't just touch it without doing some sort of passive manipulation of the response

In spite of the low Q of the driver, I was able to model good low end extension with this driver in a MLTL enclosure. Wayne has again graciously consented to placate my desire for large enclosures and build the prototypes. -But even Wayne needs some time to work his woodworking magic, so currently they are undergoing preliminary voicing while residing in an old pair of 2 way enclosures I had on hand.

How do they sound? Pretty darn good. With only a simple shelving network applied I get a nice pleasing sound with few, if any, audible artifacts. The high frequency extension is quite good on axis, but as would be expected, falls off significantly off axis. Definitely these want to be toed in toward the listener, but the sound in the sweet spot is quite acceptable, verging on excellent. Pairing these with a gainclone or low power tube amp would be the obvious match, as only a couple of watts will push these to quite high SPL's.
-High fidelity on a shoestring budget

Stay tuned: The enclosure design and filter network will be ready for dissemination shortly. At roughly 3ft^3, it's not a diminutive design, but still a reasonably sized floorstander. A hundred bucks may seem a bit steep for a single driver, but when you consider the shelving network will only run about ten bucks, it's pretty decent for a speaker which will provide an f3 below 40 Hz, and an SPL of 107 dB on only 20 watts.

Curt C

Hey Curt!


Any response graphs yet? I'm sure Jeff is pretty excited to get the word out about his new line of full range drivers - I just figured you'd have some graphs available to demonstrate the capabilities before hitting the boards. And perhaps for a change, maybe you could post distortion plots for this one like Zaph does - particularly as this is a full range and I'm sure a lot of people would like to know how clean it is in the top end. With sensitivity at around 95 db, it should be really interesting to see how you are able to get that TL/bass reflex to kick out an F3 below 40hz with only 4.5 mm of Xmax.
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post #3 of 17 Old 11-05-2010, 09:25 AM
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PE posted the Klippel data.

It would be great if this was a new trend.
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-05-2010, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post
With sensitivity at around 95 db, it should be really interesting to see how you are able to get that TL/bass reflex to kick out an F3 below 40hz with only 4.5 mm of Xmax.
Patience... All will be revealed in the fullness of time.
In the short term, here's the Mathcad model of of the MLTL with 20 watts applied.

C
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post #5 of 17 Old 11-05-2010, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
but the short story is: Sexy looks, and pretty decent performance

Curt, thanks for the PE link...very true about their looks and performance!! First time I have seen them, I remember Dayton Pro audio drivers coming out but these are completely new.

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post #6 of 17 Old 11-10-2010, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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A little explanation about these plots:

Minimal smoothing or no smoothing was applied. All the warts and blemishes are revealed in their full glory.

The top response plot was a gated MLS on a roughly 10" x 17" baffle at 2.83v/1 meter with the contour filter in place, and with 1/24th octave smoothing applied. The SPL scale is not calibrated, so ignore, or mentally add about 8 dB or so.

The distortion plots were measured under the same conditions as the MLS measurement, but with 1/24th octave stepped tones. Due to the various differences in meaurement conditions, The HD plots cannot be directly compared to other's distortion measurements, but is still of some usefulness. The dips in the fundamental resposne at 60 and 120 Hz are room artifiacts.

C


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post #7 of 17 Old 11-10-2010, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc00541 View Post

A little explanation about these plots:

Minimal smoothing or no smoothing was applied. All the warts and blemishes are revealed in their full glory.

The top response plot was a gated MLS on a roughly 10" x 17" baffle at 2.83v/1 meter with the contour filter in place, and with 1/24th octave smoothing applied. The SPL scale is not calibrated, so ignore, or mentally add about 8 dB or so.

The distortion plots were measured under the same conditions as the MLS measurement, but with 1/24th octave stepped tones. Due to the various differences in meaurement conditions, The HD plots cannot be directly compared to other's distortion measurements, but is still of some usefulness. The dips in the fundamental resposne at 60 and 120 Hz are room artifiacts.

C


Thanks - looks like pretty respectable performance overall - kudos to PE!
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post #8 of 17 Old 04-20-2011, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc00541 View Post

...
More details will be forthcoming as they become available, but the short story is: Sexy looks, and pretty decent performance.
...

Stay tuned: The enclosure design and filter network will be ready for dissemination shortly. At roughly 3ft^3, it's not a diminutive design, but still a reasonably sized floorstander. A hundred bucks may seem a bit steep for a single driver, but when you consider the shelving network will only run about ten bucks, it's pretty decent for a speaker which will provide an f3 below 40 Hz, and an SPL of 107 dB on only 20 watts.

Curt C

Curt,

Did you ever conclude your research on these?

I am interested in purchasing the ps180-8 as surrounds and center channels but there is very, very little information available on them.

Thank you.
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post #9 of 17 Old 04-21-2011, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I did no further investigation on the PS180's, although the T/S parms on PE's site should be accurate, as they were 3rd party lab measurments. Initial investigation suggested the PS180 would need some lower end help and might be best used with a suitable woofer as a 2 way. I should pick up a couple and follow up though...

C
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-21-2011, 05:16 PM
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Thank you Curt.

I'm considering using them in a moderately damped 0.25^3ft tuned to ~85Hz and electronically 2nd order high passed @ 80-100 Hz. Used all the way around in a 7.1 HT application on a Denon 4311ci reciever. 15" subs on a separate amp.

The ps180-8 driver in Dayton TWC-0.25BK 0.25 ft³ 2-Way Curved Cabinet Pair Black
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...02-701&scqty=1

You think I can do better in the same price range?
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post #11 of 17 Old 02-23-2012, 05:09 PM
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In the contour network for solid state amp ,the impedance leveling portion is not required- i understand this.

If just using the coil and resistor portion what are the function of the resistors ?

Why not just use the coil by itself ? Then the sensitivity would also increase.
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post #12 of 17 Old 02-23-2012, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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The purpose of the contour network is to compensate for the rising response of 6 dB as we transition from 4pi space at low frequencies to 2 pi space. What this means is as the frequency increases, its wavelength becomes smaller. When the wavelength becomes small enough that a significant portion of it can 'fit' on the baffle, the waves that normally go behind the speaker are reflected back into the room, much like a flashlight uses a reflective surface to direct all the light forward. Ideally, this redirection doubles the acoustic energy and increases the output at higher frequencies by 6 db. The purpose of the network is to compensate for this gain. The inductor selects the frequency where we want to reduce the signal, and the parallel resistor limits the attenuation of the network to the 6 dB we gained from the baffle reinforcement.

This explanation leaves many factors out in an effort to be clear, but in essence, the resistor is there to limit the attenuation of the inductor at higher frequencies, otherwise it would continue to attenuate the signal at 6 dB per octave. -At least until the rising impedance of the driver mitigated the effect, and the result would not the the flat on axis response we strove for.

C
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post #13 of 17 Old 02-24-2012, 08:46 AM
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Any off-axis measurements?

If they're smooth, the 8" ones look really interesting as in-wall surround drivers.

True, HF dispersion will be awful. But IMO it's also not needed in surround channels. As long as the off-axis rolloff is reasonably smooth, it might make the room sound bigger than it actually is.

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post #14 of 17 Old 02-24-2012, 10:44 AM
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http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=225559
First post has data for PS180 at 0 and approx. 15 and 30 degrees. Yes, HF dispersion is awful, but only above 2KHz.

I would think this a horrible surround, it just jumps up and says "I'm right here!" and "here" is a very small spot. As a 2-way, it has possibilities.

Have fun,
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post #15 of 17 Old 02-24-2012, 12:29 PM
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I have seen cc00541's website and singularities speakers, with ps220-8.
The cabinet looks like a bass reflex cabinet that is almost completely filled with damping material with several cross braces. Is that correct ?
I thought you need a longer passage to be a 1/4 wave TL design.
Can a MLTL be much shorter than a regular TL ?

I have converted all my classic bass reflex designs, to damped reflex ports, similar to dynaudio damped ports.
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post #16 of 17 Old 02-24-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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It's really semantics, but all vented designs are actually a subset of transmission lines as they all exhibit standing waves. -A classic' BR cab will not be optimized as a TL, but it has the same properties nonetheless. The difference between a BR and a MLTL is the long dimension in a MLTL is of an optimized length where those wavelengths as well as the port tuning augment the intended lowest frequencies. -A more efficient use of some of the acoustic energy we attempt to attenuate in traditional box designs.

The Singularities, as well and the AviaTrix on my site are mass loaded transmission lines. These designs, as well as the other TL designs on my site, were optimized using MJK's MathCAD worksheets, which provide very accurate TL models.

Other types of transmission lines, specifically those that are not mass loaded can require longer lines, but depending on the taper ratio and tuning frequency, can still be quite short, or in the case of expanding lines, or horns, very long.

C
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post #17 of 17 Old 02-25-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc00541 View Post

It's really semantics, but all vented designs are actually a subset of transmission lines as they all exhibit standing waves.

I don't see how you reached that conclusion.

BR is a Helmholtz resonator, which is in essence a resonant system whose operation is a function of mass and stiffness, not wavelength.

Noah
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