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post #181 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

We have sine wave numbers available from 10 Hz to 100 Hz. Ask for any specific frequency and we will happily provide the information.

I am well aware that you are not using the Tumults any longer. I believe you are using the AV15's from AE.

And Bosso, as you were then individual that started with comments about how we "spin", etc ... it is your responsibility to live up to the challenge you made.

You can continue with the personal attacks all you want, but the simple fact is I never mentioned your products. You started in on CHT, and posted how your products, for which you will never name a price, will "win" against ours.

If you are so confident of this win, bring two Ravens. If you are not that confident in your subwoofers, then try a little civility.

While you are thinking on this, how much would it cost for a guy to purchase a Raven from you in a basic package. It doesn't have to be pretty, just the non dressed up Sono Tube, the drivers, amp, and whatever eq you think is required?

Again with the condescension. As soon as I see the terms 'personal attacks' and 'you were the one who started in' posted by you, I know it's time to move on.

I've brought up the 63Hz number, months ago and several times since, but, since you've offered, I'm especially curious to know the 10Hz number since MKT has translated the output at that frequency into "waves of bass".

I'm not using AV15H drivers. Neither has anyone else in the past year, for that matter, which shows that you aren't really well aware of what I'm currently doing.

I have no responsibility to you whatsoever, but that's a nice try at spin.

The Raven is not for sale.

Now, this thread is supposed to be about the new Hsu sub and not about you. If you'd like to start a thread here in the DIY section, that would be super.

In fact, I believe your challenge would be easily met with 2 of the new VTF-15Hs with quite the $$ savings, a better looking sub, coming from a company that's been around for a long time with a proven track record and is a "shootout" that would garner far more general interest.

Bosso
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post #182 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Again with the condescension. As soon as I see the terms 'personal attacks' and 'you were the one who started in' posted by you, I know it's time to move on.

I've brought up the 63Hz number, months ago and several times since, but, since you've offered, I'm especially curious to know the 10Hz number since MKT has translated the output at that frequency into "waves of bass".

I'm not using AV15H drivers. Neither has anyone else in the past year, for that matter, which shows that you aren't really well aware of what I'm currently doing.

I have no responsibility to you whatsoever, but that's a nice try at spin.

The Raven is not for sale.

Now, this thread is supposed to be about the new Hsu sub and not about you. If you'd like to start a thread here in the DIY section, that would be super.

In fact, I believe your challenge would be easily met with 2 of the new VTF-15Hs with quite the $$ savings, a better looking sub, coming from a company that's been around for a long time with a proven track record and is a "shootout" that would garner far more general interest.

Bosso

Bosso, You are the individual who brought Chase Home Theater into this thread. That is merely a fact.

As for the CS-18.2, it will deliver 102 dB at 10 Hz, one meter outdoors.

What will a Raven do?
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post #183 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Notice, however, that you looking at a response of a sealed sub severely in need of eq. I doubt any one of us would be using that sub as is. If you were to eq a fairly flat response down to, say, 20hz, what kind of compression would you then see at levels near the maximum sweeps?

Well aware of and posted such, earlier in the thread. That is the whole point of complaint about the HSU numbers. Posting max and giving a +/- 2db response for different set ups without reporting how they effect each other.
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post #184 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

.

Now, this thread is supposed to be about the new Hsu sub and not about you. If you'd like to start a thread here in the DIY section, that would be super.


Bosso

Agreed. Some pretty major thread crapping and gratuitous self promotion here. Craig should start his own infomercial thread - this brawl has gone on long enough.
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post #185 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post


No one is suggesting that the outdoor measurements of any subwoofer, commercial or DIY, is going to reflect the same +/- response curve at the maximum output as it will at 90 dB.

Craig, Bosso posted the graph because of this statement. The curves will be basically the same. I don't think you said what you meant to say.
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post #186 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

That should have been obvious . Mental block on my part.


Craig said that "We posted output numbers using long term sine waves months ago, and did so for several frequencies". A sweep will not the same thing in that the sweep testing stops when compression sets in at a certain frequency area.

If EQ was applied (as is typical) to that passive DIY subwoofer to make the FR flatish, then what would the sweep results look like?




That is what Craig meat to say.
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post #187 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:58 AM
 
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A shoot out between the HSU and the CHT sub would be very easy to do. Just send a CHT sub to Audiogon to be tested with the new HSU sub.
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post #188 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 11:02 AM
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I should by one and have a little shoot out. DTS-10's, the HSU, and the CS 18.2's. I don't like buying subs I know I will return and create B stock knowingly. The Danley's will be tuff to beat in my room.

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post #189 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Who are you replying to?

You.

James
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post #190 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

You.

James

I am planning on comparing them first, Then play them together.

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post #191 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 12:13 PM
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Looking forward to your thoughts after you have a chance to listen to them.

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post #192 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 12:25 PM
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No shortage of mud in this thread I see.

Really any sealed sub that is eqd to a reasonably flat outdoor response is going to have a significantly different maximum output shape than the lower volume altered shape as it trends back towards its native response shape. Actually nearly any sub using any response shaping eq at all will have this problem at max output. On the opposite side of the coin any sub that is left to its native response shape should maintain it more or less up until it is driven into heavy compression at least. This holds true for everybody. If bosso measured his sub in an outdoor compression test and decided to use eq to maintain a deeply extended flat response then the response shape of the sub at near max output will be significantly different. On the other hand craig could remove the response shaping eq from his sub and run the same test and it would track basically the same output shape all of the way to max output. The choice is whether or not to eq the base response. Guess what? If you are eqing your subs using audyssey or an lt circuit or whatever the end result is the same as if the sub had built in response shaping anyway. Moral of the story is have more than enough sub for the.job so that you never reach that point of limitation where the response shape has to change to keep things from overloading.

Btw If Bosso or Craig want to send me these subs Id be more than happy to do a similar set of outdoor measurements to what Illka was doing on them.

We had a bunch of discussions about the driver and subwoofer efficiency deal awhile back. So far it doesn't look like anyone in this conversation is considering it the right way. With power input, not voltage. Don Keele has a nice AES paper on this subject that is worth reading. A voltage sensitivity graph that everyone is used to looking at does not give you the whole picture.
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post #193 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Are you all talking about the same Q as Rythmic describes here?

Rhythmic systems are sealed, so they're talking about the only system Q that I know about.

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post #194 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

The choice is whether or not to eq the base response. Guess what? If you are eqing your subs using audyssey or an lt circuit or whatever the end result is the same as if the sub had built in response shaping anyway. Moral of the story is have more than enough sub for the job so that you never reach that point of limitation where the response shape has to change to keep things from overloading.

Boom! QFT +1

Ricci coming in here ... keepin' it real.

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post #195 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 06:21 PM
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Bosso,

I'm curious as to what commercially available sub you think would be a good buy. If you don't want to post it for everyone here to see, would you please send me a PM?

PS. I mostly agree with your philosophy on subs so I'm not being condescending or sarcastic, but rather genuinely curious.
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post #196 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 07:16 PM
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I would guess the submersive.

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post #197 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 08:22 PM
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That would be my first choice. Or a Terraform XL, even.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #198 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hi Pete,

Always good to see you.

Yes, I got the FR and CEA numbers. It's the highlighted part that was my focus.

My point was that most every reader of those posted specs did NOT get that, at the max #s level, the FR changes rather drastically, which is a normal phenomenon when porting LTD's favorite drivers, but not generally understood.

In order to realize the max numbers above the knee, the EQ'd FR flies out the window. IOW, the sub, at maximum output and assuming properly operating limiters, will perform like a typical pro sound "subwoofer". If you post the max CEA #s and the EQ'd FR together without that distinction, it's misleading.

Since I've built sealed L/T'd subs for many years, I'm well aware of the fact that the native FR and the max output FR are not the same. The question is where do the 2 begin to part ways, which helps with how many are needed for a particular rooms transfer function, etc.

Maybe if part of the CEA standard was to plot the max CEA curve on a standard graph, the numbers would immediately be put into context by illustration.

The traces are approximate from what you've posted thus far. I appreciate the gesture to post the actual measured responses.

Put it this way; it was easy for me to see at a glance that there was a wider than normal disparity when the numbers were posted. Thus my comments, which I would not have brought up if you hadn't popped into the DIY section.

Of course, I'm sure you're aware, the protestations of a couple of your apparently offended faithful notwithstanding, that I'm simply making an observation, based on your posted data. No harm intended. The sub looks to be another great product in a long list of them.

Bosso

This is a great post Bosso, and I completely agree that having a baseline graph would be a great addition to the CEA2010 standard. Note that the VTF-15H (particularly in the low Q control setting of 0.3 with EQ2 engaged) should have very little output compression at increasing sweep levels. Depending on one's room size and preferred playback levels, we recommend different operating modes and/or different Q control settings.

Thank you for the kind words about the product! I've seen some photos and videos of your own work, and it looks brilliant!

Sincerely,

Pete - Hsu Research
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post #199 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 08:52 PM
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jpc, that was a great post on intrinsic q vs. modified q.

ricci, very cool offer! a raven with dual av15's vs. a cs18.2 would be pretty cool. the former has a little more xmax and low inductance and maybe a little more power if using one channel of an ma5050 amp, but the latter has more surface area and perhaps higher efficiency in the upper bass. the raven is a little more living room friendly, while the cs18.2 is all meat, no potatoes. it would actually be a pretty good shootout.

maybe this new hsu sub or two could get included as well. that'd be fun. get a submersive in the mix and it'd be a real party. the problem is at this level of competition, each has a pretty good idea of who wins what, so the losers won't participate. :-(

btw, any rough eta on posting your first round measurement set. i'm really looking forward to seeing what you've got there.

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post #200 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 09:06 PM
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Hi noah,

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I believe it has something to do with the the indeterminate nature of the freq resp shape of a 4th-order system, whereas in a 2nd order (sealed) system it's completely defined by Qc.

Dr. Hsu added an adjustable Q control to the VTF-15H amplifier so that one can adjust the low frequency response of the subwoofer (in whatever operating mode a customer decides to use).

Quote:


I presume you don't mean this to apply to your new sub in its two different port configurations.

Oh no, I just meant that for a given operating mode (ie. 2 port open, 1 port open, etc.), the max clean CEA2010 output will not be affected in any way by the final frequency response shaping.

Sincerely,

Pete - Hsu Research
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post #201 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Well aware of and posted such, earlier in the thread. That is the whole point of complaint about the HSU numbers. Posting max and giving a +/- 2db response for different set ups without reporting how they effect each other.

This is certainly a fair complaint. In the VTF-15H owner's manual, we do talk about what operating mode and Q control setting is best based on one's room size and/or preferred playback levels.

Sincerely,

Pete - Hsu Research
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post #202 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 09:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

This is certainly a fair complaint. In the VTF-15H owner's manual, we do talk about what operating mode and Q control setting is best based on one's room size and/or preferred playback levels.

Sincerely,

Pete, you are always a class act. I wish we could have had the VTF-15 here this weekend. There were about 6 maniacs that tossed my ass out of the room (into the bar, so I was not suffering) and they set up the eD A7s-450 and our CS-18.1.

All they were missing was your new sub (which looks great) and an Empire.

The guys pretty much tried to blow up both the eD sub and our sub on the Blu Ray of Flight of the Phoenix. You should have experienced the angst of these manic 6 saying in loud voices ... "turn it up !!". I was waiting for something to catch fire. Somehow, no real damage was caused.

You and Poh always seem to be having fun with new subwoofer announcements, as it should be. Thanks for that.

Craig

ps ... I am still finding empty glasses and missing RCA cables around the house.
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post #203 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 09:38 PM
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Very nice Craig, good to hear that you guys had fun at the get together, thank you for the kind words! Ultimately most subwoofer comparisons are apples to oranges due to the differences in size/cost/features/etc. There is no inherently right or wrong way to do things, and there is no way to avoid tradeoffs.

Sincerely,

Pete - Hsu Research
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post #204 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Again with the condescension. As soon as I see the terms 'personal attacks' and 'you were the one who started in' posted by you, I know it's time to move on.

I've brought up the 63Hz number, months ago and several times since, but, since you've offered, I'm especially curious to know the 10Hz number since MKT has translated the output at that frequency into "waves of bass".

I'm not using AV15H drivers. Neither has anyone else in the past year, for that matter, which shows that you aren't really well aware of what I'm currently doing.

I have no responsibility to you whatsoever, but that's a nice try at spin.

The Raven is not for sale.

Now, this thread is supposed to be about the new Hsu sub and not about you. If you'd like to start a thread here in the DIY section, that would be super.

In fact, I believe your challenge would be easily met with 2 of the new VTF-15Hs with quite the $$ savings, a better looking sub, coming from a company that's been around for a long time with a proven track record and is a "shootout" that would garner far more general interest.

Bosso

As entertaining as it has been to read through this thread, my reaction to this post was one of such disbelief that I had to go back and re-read to make sure I wasn't completely imagining things. I wasn't.

Bosso, this thread was plowing along without any participation from Craig until this post by you:

Quote:


The noobs gush over it because they have no frame of reference, and, well, there is that 134dB max at 50Hz, which, if there happens to be an in-room peak in FR at the LP at 50Hz will "really slam, violently and chest thingy breaky window...". That, BTW, is fine with me. Whatever flips your burger. But, we should know better.

As I've said, I have 2-1x18" EVX 180A dual chamber ported subs that I built in 1995 during the ProLogic days. I powered them with 400W and they were good to the high 20s-low 30s. The sound, well, they sound like every other pro sound 1x18" ported box used for HT.

It's fun to watch Chase & Co rush headlong into the numbers battle with the new Hsu. It's fun to see the Hsu boyfriends rush to defend the CEA "standard" because it makes Hsu the momentary numbers winner, even though Pete has himself told them that the numbers can't be compared to anyone else's numbers.

They are the same animal; one sealed, one ported. Pro sound boxes, EQ'd to impress the FR crowd and top heavy as he!! to impress the numbers crowd. Hech, Chase has posted the numbers. Is anyone even looking at them at all? 63Hz vs 20Hz = +21dB, FR = 23-200 (+/-3dB)... DUH.

And, LTD, this is where I couldn't disagree more with you on the digital vs mic'd SL comparo test. If you concoct a standard of mic signal chain/SL settings, it will show everything I've just mentioned and a lot more in a single picture.

So, you can throw whatever criticism towards CHT's products that you'd like, but Craig is not allowed to respond, is that it? It's very convenient to be able to spin it and tell Craig "this thread is not about you" when he does respond, no?
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post #205 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:12 PM
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Yeah, how about that new Hsu subwoofer...

setting specs aside - its painfully obvious whose businesses I'd support
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post #206 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Yeah, how about that new Hsu subwoofer...

It looks great. I want one.
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post #207 of 215 Old 11-15-2010, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Again with the condescension.

Pot, meet kettle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricocetj View Post

As entertaining as it has been to read through this thread, my reaction to this post was one of such disbelief that I had to go back and re-read to make sure I wasn't completely imagining things. I wasn't.

Bosso, this thread was plowing along without any participation from Craig until this post by you:



So, you can throw whatever criticism towards CHT's products that you'd like, but Craig is not allowed to respond, is that it? It's very convenient to be able to spin it and tell Craig "this thread is not about you" when he does respond, no?

Exactly. Funny how that works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Yeah, how about that new Hsu subwoofer...

setting specs aside - its painfully obvious whose businesses I'd support

Same here. Pete and Craig have both handled this quite well.
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post #208 of 215 Old 11-16-2010, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricocetj View Post
As entertaining as it has been to read through this thread, my reaction to this post was one of such disbelief that I had to go back and re-read to make sure I wasn't completely imagining things. I wasn't.

Bosso, this thread was plowing along without any participation from Craig until this post by you:



So, you can throw whatever criticism towards CHT's products that you'd like, but Craig is not allowed to respond, is that it? It's very convenient to be able to spin it and tell Craig "this thread is not about you" when he does respond, no?
Apparently you haven't read this thread at all.

Craig showed up on page 1, post #24.

Craig invited himself here to whine about the CEA standard, which he began to disparage in the VTF-15H thread at his CHT forum when he decided that he should post CEA numbers immediately on the CHT website for his subs "at the request of his potential customers..." Blah, blah.

Others had pinged me about the situation, so it was obvious to lots of folks, except apparently yourself, that Chase was in a bit of panic mode to deal with the newly posted Hsu numbers. The chosen course of action? Put the CEA standard down. A tact which uninvited Craig brought to this thread.

The post you cite is post #138, in which I mentioned that "It's fun to watch", you know, as in entertaining. Or is it somehow that only you can be entertained by this stuff?

Years ago, Dave Bott gave us DIYers our own forum to avoid threads like this one. 'X' product fans or outright shills posting with the philosophy that putting the other guy down will somehow elevate yourself, as well as downright childish whining.

Here, we don't have product loyalty diseases. We discuss the merits and/or the problems with every alignment and every tweak surrounding them without any family members bursting in to add nothing more than some emotional outburst.

We question the numbers. output, max output, group delay, response vs room transfer function, distortion, FR non-linearity, excursion, thermal compression, amplifier technologies, auditory masking, ELC, ULF, VLF, ELF, ETC...

Sometimes it gets a bit heated, but no one runs to the principal to tell, and everyone generally understands that the knowledge that's gained is well worth any ruffled feathers that may result.

If you want to believe that the idea for using dual opposed Eminence built drivers in a sealed box that has a footprint to work well with a corner powered by an amp that has no additional high pass filtering and amplifying a signal shaped by a Linkwitz Transform bi-quad filter is a subwoofer design that Craig Chase dreamed up "in the 70s" (Yes, he told me that with a straight face, after he called me "junior" and told me I was clueless regarding subwoofer design, amongst other gems), then have at it, and have a nice day.

It's preferable that you have something to add to the thread beyond your abilities as a critic of other's posts, if you decide to continue posting here.

Bosso
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post #209 of 215 Old 11-16-2010, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post
This is a great post Bosso, and I completely agree that having a baseline graph would be a great addition to the CEA2010 standard. Note that the VTF-15H (particularly in the low Q control setting of 0.3 with EQ2 engaged) should have very little output compression at increasing sweep levels. Depending on one's room size and preferred playback levels, we recommend different operating modes and/or different Q control settings.

Thank you for the kind words about the product! I've seen some photos and videos of your own work, and it looks brilliant!

Sincerely,
Thanks for the reply, Pete.

That's an interesting thought in parenthesis. Is that setting with no port blocking? If there's a chance to see the native response graph, I wouldn't mind seeing that one.

Bosso
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post #210 of 215 Old 11-16-2010, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jpc, that was a great post on intrinsic q vs. modified q.


Yes, previously I did not understand what the electronic Q setting was used for. Rythmic explained the use of the electronic Q control in a clear manner. I was going to ask Bosso about the Q settings that he uses on his EQ unit, but I don't think that he could explain it in an acceptable manner.


Anyway, from the HSU VTF-15 manual.


"Setting the Q Control

We have added an adjustable Q control on the subwoofer amplifier in order to give the user higher headroom, flatter in-room response, and better ability to take advantage of room gain. Set Q = 0.3 for the highest mid-bass headroom in all room sizes, and for the flattest deep bass response in small-to-medium room sizes. Set Q = 0.5 for the flattest deep bass response in medium-to-large room sizes. Set Q = 0.7 for the flattest deep bass response in large room sizes.

Note that the low bass is more rolled off in the lower Q settings.

This means that higher Q settings can result in less low bass headroom, ie. the subwoofer will run out of steam in the low bass earlier when the Q setting is higher
".
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