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Old 11-10-2010, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The internet audio experts keep right on coming with their bogus claims to knowledge after they read a couple basic texts on acoustics - nothing new there.

For those that want to argue the actual definition of standing waves in an open pipe with one end sealed by a transducer, allow me to introduce you to some facts:


http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technica...mped-Pipes.pdf


Read carefully and you'll find that even ordered harmonics of the driver's fundamental Fs are present at the output of the undamped pipe listed in the above paper (or more accurately - as standing waves - they exist within the pipe but not at the output) . Now if you wanna argue with the moon or George Augspurger - be my guest. I've built systems as have numerous others that back up the data cited by Mr. Augspurger. So if any of you professional internet audio forum debate club members want to argue and ridicule - talk to the hand.

This has been a public service announcement that has been urged into existence by some of the aforementioned "professional internet audio forum debate club members".
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Old 11-10-2010, 01:57 PM
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I've built systems

Im still waiting for links.

Thanks for the link, I have no concerns one way or another. If you can not hear the problems created by those possible standing wave then no one cares.

btw, nice way to start of your position I know one thing, you are not going to sell many speakers with that attitude.

For everyone else this guy wants to sell speakers, he is not here to be a DIYer or someone that wants to share their experience for free. He is using this forum to get more data/opinions only to steal IP and try to make a profit.

I said no thanks!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im still waiting for links.

Thanks for the link, I have no concerns one way or another. If you can not hear the problems created by those possible standing wave then no one cares.

btw, nice way to start of your position I know one thing, you are not going to sell many speakers with that attitude.

For everyone else this guy wants to sell speakers, he is not here to be a DIYer or someone that wants to share their experience for free. He is using this forum to get more data/opinions only to steal IP and try to make a profit.

I said no thanks!!

Steal IP?



Yeah right....if only there were intellect generating property that could be stolen!!!!!


OMG. That's the funniest thing I've read in weeks!!!
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:46 PM
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That about validates everything I said.

Quote:


With no stuffing, a pipe resonates at odd multiples of its fundamental quarter-wave resonance. The Loudspeaker cone is heavily loaded at these frequencies so that loudspeaker output is attenuated and the pipe output is accentuated. To complicate the picture, the two are alternately in and out of phase at even multiples of the fundamental, resulting in a highly irregular system response.

Closed end pipe = Odd harmonics based on quarter-wave length. There are phase anomalies in between the resonances/driver, but that is normal , and has nothing to do with even ordered harmonics as there are none.

His first example clearly states the pipe was setup to have its Fb approximate the drivers raw Fs.

His second example lowers raw Fs an octave below Fp, the end result is the same resonate frequencies.

At no point does he say raw Fs has anything to do with pipe resonances. Only Fp, and as this was about classic TLs Fp is always at raw Fs, or an octave of.

Change the Fp to something that is not a multiple of raw Fs, and you will see that things follow the pipe, not the driver.
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

That about validates everything I said.

Closed end pipe = Odd harmonics based on quarter-wave length. There are phase anomalies in between the resonances/harmonics, but that is normal , and has nothing to do with even ordered harmonics as there are none.

His first example clearly states the pipe was setup to have its Fb approximate the drivers raw Fs.

His second example lowers raw Fs an octave below Fp, the end result is the same resonate frequencies.

At no point does he say raw Fs has anything to do with pipe resonances. Only Fp, and as this was about classic TLs Fp is always at raw Fs, or an octave of.

Change the Fp to something that is not a multiple of raw Fs, and you will see that things follow the pipe, not the driver.

I've been reading (yes, and contrary to you actually reading and comprehending) this document for a few years. So I'd say I have a little jump on you. But given past behavior on this forum and others - you have a habit of running at the mouth first and reading afterwards. Try reading the top left of page 429 where it says:

"This is nominally a 109hz pipe but it actually resonates at 100hz, which is also the loudspeaker cones resonance"

"Note that the upper resonances and ant-iresonances fall at exactly 100hz intervals"


Once again Soho - try to read first and not act like a putz by running off at the mouth first about all that you don't know.


And now, back on iggy you go with the rest of the professional audio internet forum debate club faithful........
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:07 PM
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Sheesh, get a life and let it go, Villa. As usual, you flunk high school physics. No surprise there. Augsperger, who I respect very much, isn't claiming anything like what you wrote above. And Martin King, who you have so much contempt for, didn't just read one or two of Augsperger's papers; he corresponded with him extensively and got his input when he was writing his software.

Dennis H
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

"This is nominally a 109hz pipe but it actually resonates at 100hz, which is also the loudspeaker cones resonance"

"Note that the upper resonances and ant-iresonances fall at exactly 100hz intervals"

What do you think that means? Try some reading comprehension.

You may also want to try it out in the workshop I assume you have. Swap out a driver in one of your TL's with another that has an Fs that isn't a multiple of the Fb, and see what happens.

I can show you plenty of sims, but you will just say they are wrong.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Sheesh, get a life and let it go, Villa. As usual, you flunk high school physics. No surprise there. Augsperger, who I respect very much, isn't claiming anything like what you wrote above. And Martin King, who you have so much contempt for, didn't just read one or two of Augsperger's papers; he corresponded with him extensively and got his input when he was writing his software.

Oh, look what the cat just dragged out of the gutter.......the "wave expands into open air at the end of the pipe so it reflects and has reverse polarity" guy!!! Glad you could make it to the party, Dennis!

So, run into any air with reversed polarity lately?
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

What do you think that means? Try some reading comprehension.

You may also want to try it out in the workshop I assume you have. Swap out a driver in one of your TL's with another that has an Fs that isn't a multiple of the Fb, and see what happens.

I can show you plenty of sims, but you will just say they are wrong.

Why don't you just "sim" your way right on outta here?
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

Why don't you just "sim" your way right on outta here?

We will be waiting for your proof then.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:20 PM
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Why don't you do the simple experiment Soho proposed? We've all done it, why haven't you?

Dennis H
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Why don't you do the simple experiment Soho proposed? We've all done it, why haven't you?

All I can say is try to read about cavitation - maybe in a few more years - it might eventually sink in that the cavity can only expose or conceal the energy that is being generated by the driver based upon the distances associated with wavelength multiples of the driver's fundamental resonant motion. Like Martin King - you focus on the pipe as being the resonant structure in an open ended system like this when that only applies to closed systems. It's a fundamental difference between open ended and closed pipe resonance. But like King, I could rack my brains trying to convince you of the difference for the next millenium - you'll only see what you want to see.

As for what you've done - like Soho - all you've ever done is plug numbers into simulators and generate sims and the end results you've produced demonstrate your limited capabilities and understandings.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

So, run into any air with reversed polarity lately?

What part of this impulse response is too hard for you to understand?


LL

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Old 11-10-2010, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What part of this impulse response is too hard for you to understand?


Like Soho, you can take your sims and put'em where the sun doesn't shine. I think I'll have to call you by a new name - instead of Dennis - it'll be Mr. Sim.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:39 PM
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Unlike you, I've done actual measurements and they match the sims quite well, thank you very much. The only one with his head where the sun don't shine is you. Last I heard, you finally got a mic and some free measurement software? Try using them. Measure more, BS less.

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Old 11-10-2010, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

All I can say is try to read about cavitation - maybe in a few more years - it might eventually sink in that the cavity can only expose or conceal the energy that is being generated by the driver based upon the distances associated with wavelength multiples of the driver's fundamental resonant motion. Like Martin King - you focus on the pipe as being the resonant structure in an open ended system like this when that only applies to closed systems. It's a fundamental difference between open ended and closed pipe resonance. But like King, I could rack my brains trying to convince you of the difference for the next millenium - you'll only see what you want to see.

As for what you've done - like Soho - all you've ever done is plug numbers into simulators and generate sims and the end results you've produced demonstrate your limited capabilities and understandings.

See there is this thing called the real world. All you have to do is do the swap I mentioned above, it would take about 10min, and see for yourself.

I don't know where you are getting your cavitation stuff from, but you must be using it wrong. You need to really re-think this stuff. You also seem to have no real grasp of what the Fs is, and what happens to it when you mass load the driver.

Do the test, you will see yourr ideas do not hold when the Fb isn't tied to Fs, and your knowledge will grow.

Also, as you know nothing about me it is pretty dumb to think that I have never done any of this stuff for myself.
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Old 11-10-2010, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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See there is this thing called the real world. All you have to do is do the swap I mentioned above, it would take about 10min, and see for yourself.

I don't know where you are getting your cavitation stuff from, but you must be using it wrong. You need to really re-think this stuff. You also seem to have no real grasp of what the Fs is, and what happens to it when you mass load the driver.

Do the test, you will see yourr ideas do not hold when the Fb isn't tied to Fs, and your knowledge will grow.

Also, as you know nothing about me it is pretty dumb to think that I have never done any of this stuff for myself.

Judging from your posts on the other thread that demonstrate you don't even know what a standing wave is - I think it's a safe bet that acoustically speaking - you're as clueless as the other Mr. Sim. Now run along little boy and try to impress somebody else with your arrogance and ignorance.
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Old 11-10-2010, 04:11 PM
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If soho54 stopped posting, that would be a big loss to the community. You on the other hand, it would be a welcome change. You may be very knowledgeable and experienced, but until you lose the condescending attitude, its just wasted walls of words. And with that said, I add you to my previously virgin ignore list - see, you really are special.
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Old 11-10-2010, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

Judging from your posts on the other thread that demonstrate you don't even know what a standing wave is - I think it's a safe bet that acoustically speaking - you're as clueless as the other Mr. Sim. Now run along little boy and try to impress somebody else with your arrogance and ignorance.

Unlike you I am not trying to impress anyone. Just correcting this stuff that you are throwing around here like you know something the rest of the world doesn't.

The fact that you can not explain your position on anything without alluding to some higher knowledge you have gained in the last 6 years, and us mere mortals with our real world measurements and tested models could not hope to grasp, does not help your case at all.
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Old 11-10-2010, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If soho54 stopped posting, that would be a big loss to the community. You on the other hand, it would be a welcome change. You may be very knowledgeable and experienced, but until you lose the condescending attitude, its just wasted walls of words. And with that said, I add you to my previously virgin ignore list - see, you really are special.


As for Soho and what he "contributes to the "community" - here's a quote from the horse's mouth as to exactly what he "contributes":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=272


Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

You are being too modest, "perfectly acceptable designs." Your stuff is very sound.

I know what you mean about PM requests. I usually never give out any of my own designs. I will help someone with theirs, or just give them an overview of how to do it. Give them a few pointers, some starter horn profiles, offer to help them in their further endeavors/designs, and never hear from 90% again.

If they keep at it, and build one on their own, I am more incline to do all the design work the next time if needed. As long as they keep it to themselves.

But then, if you want help in obtaining questionably useful results from a half baked simulation program expedition - he's definitely your boy.

As for condescending attitude? You have absolutely no idea what condescending attitude is all about. I've been badgered and ridiculed by these Neanderthalls non stop - UNSOLICITED. Get a clue and review the threads in which I've posted and the posts of the offending parties.


All I can say is what comes around goes around. I have these individuals on ignore most of the time because of their rude behavior. It is not without reason.


The ignore is now mutual and in your case - very well deserved.

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Old 11-10-2010, 04:50 PM
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Condescending attitude? You have absolutely no idea what condescending attitude is all about. I've been badgered and ridiculed by these Neanderthalls non stop - UNSOLICITED. Get a clue and review the threads in which I've posted and the posts of the offending parties.


All I can say is what comes around goes around. I have these individuals on ignore most of the time because of their rude behavior. It is not without reason.

If you go back and read all the threads from all the different forums you will see who started what.

Your ideas where questioned, and instead of providing any proof, or even trying to better explain yourself you chose to belittle the intelligence of anyone who questioned your ideas, and then it got ugly.

All you see here is a continuation of these events.

That said I am willing to start over. Clean slate.

Hi there,

You have some interesting ideas there that do not seem to jive with the commonly held theory. Can you elaborate on your views a little more? I guess we can start on how a drivers Fs drives the standing waves in a TL instead of path length, and going even further how do those standing waves form, propagate, and sustain inside an open ended pipe?
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

Condescending attitude? You have absolutely no idea what condescending attitude is all about. I've been badgered and ridiculed by these Neanderthalls non stop - UNSOLICITED. Get a clue and review the threads in which I've posted and the posts of the offending parties.


All I can say is what comes around goes around. I have these individuals on ignore most of the time because of their rude behavior. It is not without reason.


The ignore is now mutual and in your case - very well deserved.


Im calling BS again.

1. You have yet to ignore anyone simply because you continue to response to all replies.

2. Many of your FIRST posts in several threads have been onsolicited attacks. Do you really need me to point them all out???

3. Any so called attack has simply be a defense to you posting how stupid everyone else is in 99% of your posts.

How do you want people to reply when every post from you has a common insult like "bogus claims to knowledge "??

Besides all that banter Im still completely confused about your real beef??

I still do not understand why you are against DIY Horn subwoofer designs. I asked once before but I will asked again.

Please provide me with a solution that does around 115dB that costs under $100 and only needs 100Watts.

Honestly, This whole push about TL does not make sense when we are talking about subs. You have to realize that no one cares about full range main speakers any more. Subs are just superior, there is no reason for 2.0 when 2.1 offers superior in room response. You want 2.0 put a quality sub under the main speakers EQ them together with the MiniDSP....I just see little value in TL designs period, it just seems like a compromise to real bass setups.


TL designs just are not HT friendly so who really cares when HT is the predominant discussion???

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Old 11-10-2010, 05:48 PM
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There's nothing wrong with the TL's but they don't really bring anything to the table that a ported box with some stuffing doesn't bring. I came to that conclusion years ago, when I was interested in them, with measurements and (gasp!) sims, and then moved on. When Courtney does some real measurements for himself, he'll probably come to the same conclusion.

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Old 11-10-2010, 05:53 PM
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Where is Vas when we need him?

[He'll take care of this toot sweet.... ]

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:56 PM
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There's nothing wrong with the TL's but they don't really bring anything to the table that a ported box with some stuffing doesn't bring.
Actually, they do. When properly designed and implemented they use high Qts drivers, which are generally less expensive than the low Qts that work best in VBs. Response is a combination of VB and IB, so it's a bit of a best of both worlds alignment. But where subs are concerned IMO an eleven foot or longer pathway cab that's no more sensitive than a VB isn't worthwhile. I personally wouldn't do a TL below 40 Hz.

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Old 11-10-2010, 09:39 PM
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Actually, they do. When properly designed and implemented they use high Qts drivers, which are generally less expensive than the low Qts that work best in VBs.
Good point, Bill. But, in the big scheme of things, I'm not sure saving 10 bucks on the cost of the driver is worth the added complexity of building a TL enclosure.

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Old 11-11-2010, 06:59 AM
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Good point, Bill. But, in the big scheme of things, I'm not sure saving 10 bucks on the cost of the driver is worth the added complexity of building a TL enclosure.

I don't do TLs to save money on the driver cost, that's just a side benefit of the design.

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Old 11-11-2010, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Actually, they do. When properly designed and implemented they use high Qts drivers, which are generally less expensive than the low Qts that work best in VBs. Response is a combination of VB and IB, so it's a bit of a best of both worlds alignment. But where subs are concerned IMO an eleven foot or longer pathway cab that's no more sensitive than a VB isn't worthwhile. I personally wouldn't do a TL below 40 Hz.

Im still confused on the entire comparison though and your point about TL below 40Hz, confirms it.

TL designs are main speaker designs but all of the Horn discussions/builds are all about subwoofer designs.

There just seems to be a disconnect here and misdirected anger at the wrong crowd.

Everyone is building horn type subs and he is pissed because they are not building TL speakers?

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Old 11-11-2010, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't do TLs to save money on the driver cost, that's just a side benefit of the design.

TL design - contrary to popular opinion is not standing still like other design approaches. Using FEA modelling that incorporates analysis of wave propagation outside the enclosure has lead us to a new enclosure configuration. From my perspective, transmission line modelling and analysis is still very much in its infancy - particularly with respect to controlling room modes.
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Old 11-11-2010, 07:09 AM
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particularly with respect to controlling room modes.

Good luck with that idea

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