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post #3271 of 10885 Old 03-17-2012, 02:04 PM
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In for 2 injection molded SEOS-12. I now have fg, poured, and molded waveguides on order.

Thanks Erich for making this happen. I am really excited to get building... and listening!

-Max
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post #3272 of 10885 Old 03-17-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

They do look cool without grills until the dust cap is poked in or a toy thrown at them

My ex-wife tossed a set of car keys across the room. Purely an accident, but the keys went right through the light fiberglass cone of a 24" Hartley.

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post #3273 of 10885 Old 03-17-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post


My ex-wife tossed a set of car keys across the room. Purely an accident, but the keys went right through the light fiberglass cone of a 24" Hartley.

ex-wife...accident?...unlikely

Ex-wife: "Sorry, my keys were sticking out of my pocket slightly and I accidentally put a huge gouge down the entire length of your car"....accident?....unlikely

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post #3274 of 10885 Old 03-18-2012, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Seems like a lot of trouble for a speaker grill.

True. With a foam-stuffed waveguide, all one really needs for protection is a round ring with cloth stretched over it to cover the woofer. And I like that look, too.

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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Metal grilles with standoffs much easier and nicer looking IMO.

While the most protective, that's not a high-fidelity approach. Standoffs create diffraction, as do metal grills.

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post #3275 of 10885 Old 03-18-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

True. With a foam-stuffed waveguide, all one really needs for protection is a round ring with cloth stretched over it to cover the woofer. And I like that look, too.

That's sounding pretty good, but presumes foam cut to match the compound curvature of the WG, which I at least am not capable of.

Noah
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post #3276 of 10885 Old 03-18-2012, 04:10 PM
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I can't seem to find it but didn't Zilch run some tests with a JBL metal grill? IIRC it only made a small difference in the high end.
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post #3277 of 10885 Old 03-18-2012, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I can't seem to find it but didn't Zilch run some tests with a JBL metal grill? IIRC it only made a small difference in the high end.

It's in the Ewave thread somewhere .. IIRC .. the JBL pro style mesh JRX / SR type that's commonly used .. There it is ..

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...postcount=9086
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post #3278 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I can't seem to find it but didn't Zilch run some tests with a JBL metal grill? IIRC it only made a small difference in the high end.

Diffraction isn't something that's perceived linearly. I've found that it generally manifests itself as image smearing and listener fatigue.

I wouldn't want perforated anything in front of my drive-units.

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post #3279 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 09:01 AM
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Would separating the grill from the speaker by 1/2"-1" with spacers of some sort at each corner mitigate the effects of diffraction?

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post #3280 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 09:25 AM
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It would change the diffraction profile, but the reduced angle from listening axis to the interfering object (grill frame) would likely make HF diffraction worse.

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post #3281 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 10:03 AM
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I think we need to step back about the effects of a grille. Ideally, there is no grille. Ideally you also don't have coffee table...or wood floors...or a leather chair with a high back. None of those are deal breakers or the difference between good performance and bad.

Many people will need grilles due to children. I don't have an answer as to what will be best, but ultimately even the worst solution won't sound terrible. I'd guess the best solution will be one that Erich's CNC guys can pull off. I'd shoot for something with hidden magnets so you can pull the grilles when the kids aren't around and you want the best performance.
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post #3282 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 10:50 AM
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Is the grille a concern if only covering the woofer, assuming its frame does not project and effect the WG?

Noah
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post #3283 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Is the grille a concern if only covering the woofer, assuming its frame does not project and effect the WG?

Would that not be dependent on how high in frequency the "woofer" goes?

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post #3284 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Is the grille a concern if only covering the woofer, assuming its frame does not project and effect the WG?

I think so. If I'm reading things right, covering the woofer is what those with little ones would want so long as the grille frame does not interfere with the wg. Where the grille frame would work is when it is safely positioned dimensionally outside the frequency wavelength and recessed or skirted around the baffle. For the wg, the grille frame would be placed not over wg, but within about ~.75" of its bottom edge (approximate wavelength distance @ 18kHz), for a baffle holding a 12" woofer w/ x frequency range it would be anywhere beyond "13 inches (1-1.5kHz). Yes? Sort of?

The lower frequencies will travel around the speaker no matter what, but the higher frequencies will bounce off the baffle at a pre-determined distance depending on how high the frequency is. If the grille frame is beyond those widths, there is no step compensation only diffration of frequencies through the grille cloth. Right?
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post #3285 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I think we need to step back about the effects of a grille. Ideally, there is no grille. Ideally you also don't have coffee table...or wood floors...or a leather chair with a high back. None of those are deal breakers or the difference between good performance and bad.

Many people will need grilles due to children. I don't have an answer as to what will be best, but ultimately even the worst solution won't sound terrible. I'd guess the best solution will be one that Erich's CNC guys can pull off. I'd shoot for something with hidden magnets so you can pull the grilles when the kids aren't around and you want the best performance.

Don't you think there may also be some SAF involved here too?

BA = Big Assed Compression Tweeter
CD = compression driver or constant directivity
OS = oblate spheroid(al). A geometric curve
SEOS = super-elliptical oblate spheroidal.
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post #3286 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 08:23 PM
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Just an update.

Project is now 100% underway and ordering has started. Pre-orders will continue so it can help with costs. Costs have now reached into crazy figures. I was able to order enough compression drivers to cover pre-orders up to a certain figure that we haven't reached yet.


BUT, if you don't pre-order the waveguide, you might not get one of the compression drivers. They're on a first come, first serve basis and it starts with people that preordered. Depending on which model you want, it will save you a minimum of $100 up to $140 for a pair.

Basically, don't wait too long or there won't be enough to go around.


Also, I made the 12" boxes for Bwaslo to work on. First up: 12" Deltalites. I didn't have time to recess the waveguide a little, so we might end up tweaking things once the CNC company gets the baffles cut for different woofer sizes. Boxes aren't perfect and I didn't have time to give them a 3/4" roundover, only 1/2". But I will probably make different ones later.



Where have I been? As you guys know, I run a small landscape business in Ohio and this is our busy time of year. Well this year is starting off crazy. Temps are normally around 50 degrees and grass isn't even growing, so we normally get about 100+ commercial locations mulched before we even start cutting grass. But it's been non stop 70's and even 80's here for 2 weeks and the grass could be mowed about 2-3 weeks earlier than normal. So it's been extremely hectic. I've been wearing shorts for the past week! Tomorrow will be sun up to sun down work and 82 degrees in March.
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post #3287 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 08:35 PM
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I could use some help coming up with names for the compression drivers. Honestly, I don't want them to look much like DE-XXX names. They don't even have to have numbers or letters in their model name. They could be named anything.


The one model I'm having trouble with is the 250 line up. One tests great and looks nice and clean. The cheaper model tests very close, but isn't as nicely polished up on the outside. But they do look nearly identical from any normal viewing distance.

So I think they could share the same model number, but one could be have XL or XT, RL, who knows what tacked on the end.

I thought about using numbers that matched how low they could be crossed over. But someone pointed out that the better models would have smaller numbers.....which seemed backwards.

Eventually I'd like to get about 8 different models for us to use. So how can they be named in a series kind of way?

I like how Eminence does the Alpha, Beta, Delta type names. But obviously I can't use those.


Right now there's the BA model, the two 250's and then a super tiny neo model. But I'm hoping to find some cheaper priced mid sized models for smaller surround sounds and things like that. I've got some potential models, but they have titanium diaphragms and I'm trying to get some mylar ones shipped to me.

Any ideas?
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post #3288 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 08:40 PM
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Pre-order for Compression drivers. DO IT.

Make it so that the pre-order applies to whichever driver we decide upon after seeing the final numbers.

Don't make it a requirement, but at least an option. Having the entire project fall short and fail would be worse than me not having my money for a while.


Steve
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post #3289 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 08:58 PM
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BA = Compresszilla or Compzilla just 'zilla
<250=?
OH
hmm how about bird themed

BA = Albatross
<250 = Hawk
>250 = Eagle
small neo = Falcon

sorry, thinking aloud
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post #3290 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoFinWiley View Post

Pre-order for Compression drivers. DO IT.

Make it so that the pre-order applies to whichever driver we decide upon after seeing the final numbers.

Don't make it a requirement, but at least an option. Having the entire project fall short and fail would be worse than me not having my money for a while.


Steve

Don't worry, the entire project isn't going to fall short and fail at all. I wouldn't let that happen. There are a decent amount coming (as in hundreds). But I'm too worried to do a pre-order on the CD's. And I'm not sure there would be a large number pre-ordered to really increase the current order by a significant amount. I felt strange enough doing that for some of the waveguides. There will be enough to cover all the current pre-orders and still some extra for anyone that might put them in soon.

I'd love to do more and get them all together to save shipping down the road. But the numbers are getting pretty crazy. What's happened is the perfect storm with all of this stuff coming together at exactly the same time. If that pallet from Poland hadn't hit right now, I'd throw that $10k into compression drivers. I should have taken 50% deposits on those, but I don't feel right doing it because no one knows the time frame for how long they take to get here.

The stuff from Poland will ship this week, but by the time it's here and I get the horns packaged up and everyone pays for their stuff......it will be too late to order extra drivers unless people want to wait an additional 2-3 weeks after the normal estimated delivery of all the SEOS-12's.

I did order some of the big BA models, but not many. Bwaslo thought I should have gotten more of those, but it's probably going to have to be next time. Anyone that said they wanted some will be okay though.
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post #3291 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 09:41 PM
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I need some group advice.


Can you guys give estimates on how many compression drivers you think should have been ordered? Obviously figure 1000 SEOS-12 are coming. There might be a way I can do more if it looks like we need to.


Better looking 250 model:

Good looking 250 model:

Big BA model:


I'd like to see what really makes sense here.
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post #3292 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 09:58 PM
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Simple.....

Better looking 250 model: BL-2501

Good looking 250 model: GL-2502

Big BA model: BBA-01

I have no idea on the quantity
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post #3293 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDKing2 View Post

Simple.....

Better looking 250 model: BL-2501

Good looking 250 model: GL-2502

Big BA model: BBA-01

I have no idea on the quantity

lol. get my vote.
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post #3294 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I could use some help coming up with names for the compression drivers.

How about

Khaos (BA)
Arjuna (Better 250)
Odin (Other 250)
Tsukuyomi (Tiny)
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post #3295 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:15 PM
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Some naming ideas inspired by "Fat Bottom Girls" by Queen / Freddie Mercury...

At first I was thinking that the BA could be "Mercury", but there are a lot of interesting elements with higher atomic weights, so maybe the 250s should be "Mercury".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elements

Big Ass - "Dubnium" or "Nobelium"

Handsome 250 - "Mercury XL"

Good-from-far 250 - "Mercury"

tiny neo - "Helium"
or breaking with the element names... "tiny-o"?
or "tineo" (and put a bar over the 'i' to indicate that it is long)?

--------------------------------

Planets?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_System

Big Ass - "Saturn"
Handsome 250 - "Earth"
Good-from-far 250 - "Venus"
Tiny Neo - "Mercury"

Next generation: extra solar planets; ones yet to be found and named?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_solar_planets

--------------------------------

Greek (or Roman) gods?
I looked up Prometheus when I saw Promethium in the list of elements, and I like the story of how he stole fire from Zeus and gave it to mankind -- it reminds me of this current revolution in DIY audio where components, information, and support are available for even novice builders (like me) to build highly dynamic speakers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_gods

Big Ass - "Prometheus"
(see above) + Titan of forethought... (as in... you might need to have the forethought to build a brace or support for this one )

Handsome 250 - "Apollo"
The god of music... handsome

The other 250 - "Artemis"
twin sister of Apollo... (sounds "crafty" from the rest of the description)

Tiny Neo - "Aether" or "Aphrodite"
(because the names are associated with being, or simply sound, "light" or "petite")

-------------------------

No overthinking....

Big Ass
Handsome
Spartan
Tiny Neo

-Max
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post #3296 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:33 PM
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Just give them a number. Or give them names that audiophiles deserve like Tinkerbells.

"I just got me a set of Tinkerbells and they are so to-die-for"
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post #3297 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:47 PM
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I like names that convey useful information.

Going on that principle, it seems that it would be useful information to know which driver is best suited for which WG's. So, with that in mind, maybe something like this:

little neo: CD-S68
DE250-alike: CD-S1012 or -S1015*
Nicer-looking DE250-alike: above, with maybe a "A" at the end for "appearance-enhanced"*
BA: CD-S1518 or -S1524.

The "CD" (obviously, I hope) stands for "Compression Driver." It could be dropped. (i.e. the DE250-alike could be called the "S1015.")

The S stands for "SEOS." I would keep that over "CD," to emphasis the interlocking nature of the two products.

The numbers stand for the best matching SEOS width : 6"-8", 10"-12" (or 10"-15"), and 15"+, respectively.

Not sexy, to be sure.

*I worry that making both available might spread things thin. Or, from an end-user perspective, make it hard to source replacement parts later either on the new or secondary market should one do something stupid with a purchased unit. While if there is only one DE250-alike, then everyone who wants a DE250-alike will buy it, and there will likely be better overall supply on the secondary market even if you end up taking the project in a different direction later and no longer source the drivers. Is there a really compelling reason to have two DE250-alikes? For example, is one $20 and almost as good as a DE250, while the other is $75 and better than a DE250 for home use?

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post #3298 of 10885 Old 03-19-2012, 11:58 PM
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CDOS Standard

CDOS Deluxe

CDOS BA

CDOS Neo

(CDOS = Compression Driver for Oblate Spheroid)

The name matches phonetically with SEOS and I think anyone following this project would know which driver was which without explanation.

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post #3299 of 10885 Old 03-20-2012, 12:30 AM
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Wow i was typing up a response, didnt submit it, but i suggested a similar naming scheme.

ECD (erics compression drivers)

ECD BA or Deluxe
ECD Standard
ECD Budget

Or was going to recommend Standard be the "less polished" version if "budget" is frowned upon, and then use PREMIUM for the better looking DE250 clone.

Want to measure your subwoofers? check out my dummies guide for a step by step process to Room EQ wizard
http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html
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post #3300 of 10885 Old 03-20-2012, 12:40 AM
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All good ideas in the last 3 posts.

With numbers I was thinking
1x for anything smaller than 1"
2x for 1" units
3x for 1.4"
4x for 1.5" and
5x for 2"
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