Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 111 - AVS Forum
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post #3301 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 03:00 AM
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Will all furher pre-order be in the drawing?

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post #3302 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 04:46 AM
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I vote for this one. Largely because it keeps BA in the name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

CDOS Standard

CDOS Deluxe

CDOS BA

CDOS Neo

(CDOS = Compression Driver for Oblate Spheroid)

The name matches phonetically with SEOS and I think anyone following this project would know which driver was which without explanation.

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post #3303 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Will all furher pre-order be in the drawing?

Yes sir.
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post #3304 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

I vote for this one. Largely because it keeps BA in the name.

Maybe it should be written as it's said:

Standard CDOS
Deluxe CDOS
BA CDOS
Neo CDOS

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post #3305 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 06:11 AM
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Ordered Three.

Keep up the good fight on those designs boys, I'm counting on you.

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post #3306 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

CDOS Standard

CDOS Deluxe

CDOS BA

CDOS Neo

(CDOS = Compression Driver for Oblate Spheroid)

The name matches phonetically with SEOS and I think anyone following this project would know which driver was which without explanation.

I like that....except, I think OSCD sounds better (Oblate Spheroid Comp Driver), but I really don't care one way or the other really.

JoshK on most other audio forums
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post #3307 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 07:35 AM
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that sounds like Oblate Spheroid Compulsive Disorder.
Maybe WCD...waveguide compression driver.
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post #3308 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 07:39 AM
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Why not OCSD?

(obsessive-compulsive speaker designs)
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post #3309 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 07:46 AM
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Do It Yourself Constant Directivity.


DIYCD-01
DIYCD-02
DIYCD-03

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post #3310 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 07:48 AM
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Planting a mental tie to the OS flare may unnecessarily limit the market. Maybe add size and other info (dome material, copper sleeve/cap on pole) and do something like:

CD10T Standard (Titanium Diaphragm)

CD10T Deluxe

CD10T Ultra

CD10T Compact Neo (Neo rather than ferrite, leaves ID open for Deluxe & Ultra Neo, etc)

CD14AC Ultra Neo (aluminum diaphragm, copper sleeve...doesn't exist, but could)

CD15, CD20 etc etc

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post #3311 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 08:22 AM
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not to put a damper on the name suggestions or on anything else, but a few queries...

Erich, you're essentially becoming a driver manufacturer since the details are not out there for public consumption (at the moment and maybe forever?) about the manufacturer who is OEM'ing them for you. One has to assume that these drivers are not available anywhere else commercially? So this is a special run of specific drivers just for you and any additional drivers or replacement parts for blown diaphragms would have to be ordered through you?

How should potential buyers view these tweeters? Is it an all sales final kind of deal like AE since they consider all their drivers "special order". Is it like a woofer buyout at Parts Express where it is while supplies last and then there will be no more? Are there return options if the actual product doesn't measure up to expectations like Parts Express's 45 day no questions asked dealio?

What kind of recourse will potential buyers have if they purchase the drivers and their actual measured specs are not within what has been discussed thus far? I assume not all drivers will be measured before shipping out to buyers?? It's a small chance/risk, but having bought pallets of drivers direct from manufacturers multiple times in the past, I can say with certainty that it definitely does happen that they try to dump some crap on you that doesn't meet the published specs or what was agreed to..... even under tight tolerances, you're bound to have some anomalies on a few drivers among the 300+ ordered...

What kind of warranty will these drivers have, if any?

How will warranty issues be dealt with? Through you or through the original manufacturer who is OEM'ing them for you?

What constitutes a valid warranty claim? What is excluded? Is it the standard fare to protect you from folks that are reckless or knowingly/unknowingly do something inappropriate to damage the drivers or are there some other specific restrictions? What are the procedures to file and receive warranty service?

Are you going to keep a certain percentage of drivers back in "safety stock" for warranty issues or will there be a delay of weeks to months until the next order of drivers comes in?

Are you going to always keep some extras for issues 1,2,3,4,5+ years from now or will buyers have to rebuild speakers and crossovers down the road if and when they hit an issue with a single tweeter going out?


There's no question that you are going waaaaaaaaaaaay above and beyond for the DIY community with your efforts, Erich.... and at great financial risk to yourself. It's easy to say "it'll get taken care of" and you've very rightfully earned a great deal of goodwill here because of the extreme efforts you've put in here for no real reward other than gratitude from folks sending emails or posting comments on a message board. But drivers are a bit of a different animal than CNC'ed flat packs or waveguides. For your own protections and to put some questions to bed for potential buyers, it might be good to get it all spelled out in writing. It will likely make your life a whole lot easier in the long run....

I'm not trying to be alarmist at all. I have no skin in this game other than a personal, DIY interest to play with some of these designs and compare them with the commercial built stuff I really like and enjoy. I ordered 14 waveguides to assist in my own little way with Erich's burden.... it was only a few bucks and I'll hopefully find a use for all of the waeguides in helping buddies build out some DIY speakers for their theaters. But ordering 14 of the good CDs sounds like a bit more of a financial commitment. So it got me thinking about the above questions and I figured others that are considering things might have the same thoughts.... I'm sure it will go well and folks will be happy... but it might be nice to have some of this stuff locked down into writing so folks can make a more informed decision when it comes time to pony up for the tweeters as well. If I have offended with this post, my apologies. If folks would like me to remove it, please just let me know.

Shane
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post #3312 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

CDOS Standard

CDOS Deluxe

CDOS BA

CDOS Neo

(CDOS = Compression Driver for Oblate Spheroid)

The name matches phonetically with SEOS and I think anyone following this project would know which driver was which without explanation.

I like this naming.
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post #3313 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

not to put a damper on the name suggestions or on anything else, but a few queries...

Erich, you're essentially becoming a driver manufacturer since the details are not out there for public consumption (at the moment and maybe forever?) about the manufacturer who is OEM'ing them for you. One has to assume that these drivers are not available anywhere else commercially? So this is a special run of specific drivers just for you and any additional drivers or replacement parts for blown diaphragms would have to be ordered through you?

How should potential buyers view these tweeters? Is it an all sales final kind of deal like AE since they consider all their drivers "special order". Is it like a woofer buyout at Parts Express where it is while supplies last and then there will be no more? Are there return options if the actual product doesn't measure up to expectations like Parts Express's 45 day no questions asked dealio?

What kind of recourse will potential buyers have if they purchase the drivers and their actual measured specs are not within what has been discussed thus far? I assume not all drivers will be measured before shipping out to buyers?? It's a small chance/risk, but having bought pallets of drivers direct from manufacturers multiple times in the past, I can say with certainty that it definitely does happen that they try to dump some crap on you that doesn't meet the published specs or what was agreed to..... even under tight tolerances, you're bound to have some anomalies on a few drivers among the 300+ ordered...

What kind of warranty will these drivers have, if any?

How will warranty issues be dealt with? Through you or through the original manufacturer who is OEM'ing them for you?

What constitutes a valid warranty claim? What is excluded? Is it the standard fare to protect you from folks that are reckless or knowingly/unknowingly do something inappropriate to damage the drivers or are there some other specific restrictions? What are the procedures to file and receive warranty service?

Are you going to keep a certain percentage of drivers back in "safety stock" for warranty issues or will there be a delay of weeks to months until the next order of drivers comes in?

Are you going to always keep some extras for issues 1,2,3,4,5+ years from now or will buyers have to rebuild speakers and crossovers down the road if and when they hit an issue with a single tweeter going out?


There's no question that you are going waaaaaaaaaaaay above and beyond for the DIY community with your efforts, Erich.... and at great financial risk to yourself. It's easy to say "it'll get taken care of" and you've very rightfully earned a great deal of goodwill here because of the extreme efforts you've put in here for no real reward other than gratitude from folks sending emails or posting comments on a message board. But drivers are a bit of a different animal than CNC'ed flat packs or waveguides. For your own protections and to put some questions to bed for potential buyers, it might be good to get it all spelled out in writing. It will likely make your life a whole lot easier in the long run....

I'm not trying to be alarmist at all. I have no skin in this game other than a personal, DIY interest to play with some of these designs and compare them with the commercial built stuff I really like and enjoy. I ordered 14 waveguides to assist in my own little way with Erich's burden.... it was only a few bucks and I'll hopefully find a use for all of the waeguides in helping buddies build out some DIY speakers for their theaters. But ordering 14 of the good CDs sounds like a bit more of a financial commitment. So it got me thinking about the above questions and I figured others that are considering things might have the same thoughts.... I'm sure it will go well and folks will be happy... but it might be nice to have some of this stuff locked down into writing so folks can make a more informed decision when it comes time to pony up for the tweeters as well. If I have offended with this post, my apologies. If folks would like me to remove it, please just let me know.


I don't think your post is out of line in any way. We all appreciate what Erich is doing, but these are legitimate questions. I was briefly discussing this DIY effort with my spouse (lawyer) and she asked the same kind of questions. These issues will not stop me from buying some of the CD's/Kits, but others might be a bit more worried.

Jim
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post #3314 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 10:00 AM
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I'm not trying to answer for Erich, but I think this should be regarded as any group buy effort, which it basically is at least at this point. Just pooling resources to buy stuff more efficiently, most from overseas. The guy doing most of the work, and for free, shouldn't be on the hook for warrantee costs, etc.

The DE250-like drivers could be replaced with real DE250s if one went bad (or more likely, got burnt out by teenage offspring while you weren't home!), or the diaphragms from DE250 could be used to replace the ones in the clones. The other drivers, yeah, there will be some risk there. They're cheap enough, you might want to get some spares if you like them.
Just my 2cents.
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post #3315 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Maybe it should be written as it's said:

Standard CDOS
Deluxe CDOS
BA CDOS
Neo CDOS

I like that. Though I'd change "Neo" to "Compact" or "Mini."

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post #3316 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 10:15 AM
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Good post Shane. From a CYA standpoint, I would be shocked if Erich was not prepared for replacement parts and any arising issues should a customer encounter faulty drivers or manufacturing defects. He did mention there would be replacement diaphragms many posts ago, so I know he's put a lot of thought into this. If he decides to take this to a whole new level, it does need to be in writing (Writing Readable Warranties) and the 'Sound Group' might be better suited as an LLC as well. I've been in the business Erich does, it behooves one to do the absolute best year in year out or you lose a customer/s. He's applying the same quality principle here, but should protect himself from things beyond his control.

In any case...I'll still buy from you Erich... "Tommy Boy Guarantee"
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post #3317 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


I like that. Though I'd change "Neo" to "Compact" or "Mini."

Agreed. However, BA must not be touched. That's a classic :-)

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post #3318 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Would that not be dependent on how high in frequency the "woofer" goes?

Assuming a smaller woofer that XO's at 2 kHz, that's ~7" wavelength, which should be "invisible" to any grille bar or whatever that's an inch or less in diameter.

But to avoid a 1/4-wave reflection notch I guess the grille mustn't be further than 1 3/4" from the cone.

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post #3319 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I could use some help coming up with names for the compression drivers.

There are enough suggestions for the beginning initials; for the numbers how about d.d-f.f, where dd is throat diameter in in. and f is lowest XO freq in Hz.

So the DE250 clone might be CD-1.2-900

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Can you guys give estimates on how many compression drivers you think should have been ordered?

Better looking 250 model:

Good looking 250 model:

I thought it wasn’t just looks, but that the better looking one measures better; I forget, are there measurements for both so we can compare?

In which case I want 3 of the better one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

I'm not trying to answer for Erich, but I think this should be regarded as any group buy effort, which it basically is at least at this point.

Except that a “regular” GB is with a brand name product that can be purchased from multiple sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

The DE250-like drivers could be replaced with … the diaphragms from DE250 could be used to replace the ones in the clones.

Are you sure they’re drop-in replacements?

Hmm, just googled and they’re $53 a pop.

I’d be fine if I could order a couple of spare diaphragms with the original purchase.

But I’d rather know they’ll be available in the future, in case Erich is swallowed by the earth in a tragic landscape disaster or something.

Erich, how about turning over/selling your interest in the CD’s to Parts Express?

Noah
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post #3320 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 03:59 PM
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If they ever go bad... I wonder if we can get truextent diaphrams for one of these
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post #3321 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

From a CYA standpoint, I would be shocked if Erich was not prepared for replacement parts and any arising issues should a customer encounter faulty drivers or manufacturing defects. He did mention there would be replacement diaphragms many posts ago, so I know he's put a lot of thought into this. If he decides to take this to a whole new level, it does need to be in writing (Writing Readable Warranties) and the 'Sound Group' might be better suited as an LLC as well.

Glad you have some faith in me. It should be pretty obvious that I'm going to stand behind what I've done here. How can I not, I'm paying for all of it before it even arrives. Heck, if something isn't exactly right, I've already said I'm eating it because it's a project I moved along. That's why I haven't taken any money up front on anything before these plastic waveguides. I look at this whole waveguide project as a group effort. But if they don't arrive, I'd give the money back for what will be about 200 preorders, and eat the loss for the remaining 800 myself. Someone had to do this. If not, we'd still be back there talking about what if's.


Anyway, about the compression drivers: Yes, I have ordered more diaphragms for the nicer CD's. EVERY single one will be tested before I send them out. Every last one. Bwaslo set me up with the calibrated Omnimic and I promise to make sure these all test properly before shipping. There's not much else that can really go wrong with them. And keep in mind, these aren't just some junky things put together like a Frankenstein project. They've been looked at and tested by some pretty smart people.

Even under severe use in dance clubs, concerts, etc. with gobs of power, if anything blows after serious abuse, it's the diaphragm, which can be replaced very easily. If anyone blows on of these compression drivers for home use, they've done something kind of crazy. The replacement diaphragms will be priced very very good at cost. 50% less than that other one someone talked about.

I promise you guys, I've done everything I can possibly do to make sure these are the best they can be. CD's are very strong beasts that can handle abuse.

As for now, woofers will be your typical name brand stuff. But there's some serious testing coming soon by some of our better forum members. Keep in mind, we've got forum members that can out do testing done by even the biggest companies. They just aren't posting every day.
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post #3322 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


But I’d rather know they’ll be available in the future, in case Erich is swallowed by the earth in a tragic landscape disaster or something.

Erich, how about turning over/selling your interest in the CD’s to Parts Express?

Dang bro, if anything like that happened to me, I hope you'd be more worried about me than a $20 diaphragm. Don't take this the wrong way, and I know you mean well. But I'm surprised how pessimistic you've been with many steps of this project. From the original design, plastic worries, CD testing.....and now you want to make sure you can buy replacements in case I have a tragic landscaper disaster. I'm not really sure what I've done to make you worry like that. And I truly hope that none of your worries come true. But my biggest thing is always to have a Plan B, so things are okay sir.

Why would you want me to turn over my interest to PE? I might be a 'landscaper', but that was only by circumstance. I majored in human anatomy/physiology and biology at Purdue. Nearly patented a better way to do DNA gel electrophoresis, among many other neat ideas before having to come home for family matters. So have no fear that a dirty landscaper is building things among the mulch and dirt piles. That's not happening.

To ease as much worry as I possibly can: We're only talking about CD's....right now. From what I gather they're pretty much a drop in replacement for that other model, but so far testing a little better up high. And in case anything ever happened to me, I'm not the only one that knows where everything is coming from.



I've had a long time to think this all through. In the past year I shipped out over 1100 packages. No idea how I managed that, but I did. No doubt that I've taken on some serious risk on many of the past group buys. I recall ordering 2 very expensive horns from Autotech for a DIY guy. No money up front (wouldn't matter with this story anyway). When they arrived he said he would buy them only if there wasn't one scratch on them. Obviously that's a little scary when I'm doing that just to help out. If the delivery guy scratched his order, I'd be buying $1400 worth of big horns when I was only helping. So yeh, that's scary. It scares me every time they get delivered.

When I did my landscaping business taxes last year, I told my accountant what I was helping with. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. He recommended that I set up a business for the audio stuff to make sure liabilities were covered. Of course that doesn't help with scratched horns! There are things being considered, but I'm also trying to figure a way to do that but keep pricing *well* under everything else out there.

Neat things are coming.
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post #3323 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Someone had to do this. If not, we'd still be back there talking about what if's.

Having been a fly on the wall watching this take shape I am literally amazed at what you have accomplished Erich. If I had to put money on whether even a single waveguide would be made I'd of bet against it for sure! . Now here we are with the components for entire speaker builds with talented folks working on crossover designs. All at prices that cannot be matched by any retail or ID company - in other words components for what is clearly at, or near, cost.

IMO, instead of warranty talk I think the expectation should be "All Sales Final". It is certainly my expectation. Do I think you will help resolve any issues to the best of your ability? Yes I do. Which is why I will buy the parts from you. As far as I'm concerned this is a wholesale purchase through a middleman - you. Not a retail purchase.

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post #3324 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

But I'm surprised how pessimistic you've been with many steps of this project. From the original design, plastic worries, CD testing.....and now you want to make sure you can buy replacements in case I have a tragic landscaper disaster.

Sorry, it's not you, it's just my nature to wonder what might go wrong.

Remember - just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you

I was going to put a smiley after the swallowed by the earth remark but I figured the hyperbole would make it apparent that it was tongue in cheek.

Noah
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post #3325 of 10763 Old 03-20-2012, 11:56 PM
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In case anyone is considering a high end woofer, here are JBL 2206's for $319 ($450 at Parts Express).

http://www.speakerfactory.net/ (click on JBL on the left and scroll down)

Noah
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post #3326 of 10763 Old 03-21-2012, 03:14 AM
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I'm no poster diyer. First time I've seen/come to know of, any-one put this much on the line to serve diy projects.

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post #3327 of 10763 Old 03-21-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

IMO, instead of warranty talk I think the expectation should be "All Sales Final". It is certainly my expectation. Do I think you will help resolve any issues to the best of your ability? Yes I do. Which is why I will buy the parts from you. As far as I'm concerned this is a wholesale purchase through a middleman - you. Not a retail purchase.

I like this idea. A good chunk of the markup that goes into products is there to subsidize likely warranty and service costs. Since Erich isn't building in markup, IMO there should be no warranty expected.

Noah, nothing is free. Buying CDs for a better price through Erich will come at a cost and that might include your concerns about replacement parts. Certainly it is more likely that a company like B&C will be able to supply replacement parts in the future. Each person can decide if that peace of mind is worth the extra price. Frankly, I think it is an overblown concern for home use.

Erich, I didn't know you were a Purdue grad. Sorry to see that they couldn't join my Hoosiers in the Sweet 16. Oh and maybe your grimy landscaping mitts can add some 'earthiness' to the SEOS sound. 'Earthiness' is an audiophile term right?
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post #3328 of 10763 Old 03-21-2012, 01:57 PM
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entire post removed because it is being interpreted in ways that I wasn't intending.... it's just easier I guess to remove it all....

Shane
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post #3329 of 10763 Old 03-21-2012, 04:45 PM
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Way too much speculating going on for a compression driver that isn't even here yet and no one has given a penny towards. There have been no pre-orders allowed on the CD's because pricing isn't known. All these items will be available on an ongoing basis. I've never said all sales are final. Of course you'll have time to return them if you don't like them. Why would that bother me? But why would I put all the 'legal' stuff up on the CD's when they aren't even here yet and none have been sold? And if you find something better that's cheaper, then you should buy it. Why would you not? No one will be forced to buy anything, ever. I will be testing each one before 1 person puts up a dime. If that doesn't ease worries, I honestly have no idea what would.

If anyone that pre-ordered the SEOS-12 thinks I'm 'not going to be around', or might have some tragic landscape accident before the SEOS-12's get here, or doesn't think I've thought about all the what if's, or replacement parts, or whatever.....please tell me so I can refund anything you've sent so far to help with the project. Seriously, I don't want people to worry. The pre-orders were set up so this would be more of a DIY community effort. There will possibly be about 200 SEOS preorders. I'm handling the other 800+. If that doesn't ease worries, again, I honestly have no idea what would.

Anyone that thinks I'd sink this much time and money into something without planning 20 steps ahead and doing everything possible to make sure it works out.....doesn't know me very well. And I'm sorry if I said something that makes you feel otherwise.





Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

I would like confirmation on this stuff, please I'm sorry to be a pain in the derriere... but I think this is important info to weigh into my purchase decision, especially since I'm looking at possibly 14 units, and more if I need additional units down the road....

Hometheaterdoc, The reason why I haven't posted every single aspect of these......they aren't here yet. You're giving a lot of scenarios for things that haven't even started, but have already been thought about. Your purchase decision should be based on what is currently known. Until I have the CD's here, they don't exist, so how can I give all the info? If you're worried about the 14 plastic waveguides, I will refund your pre-order money immediately. Just let me know. No one is under any obligation to buy anything, including the compression drivers.....that aren't here yet. I probably shouldn't have mentioned them. They're not needed with the SEOS project and no one has to get them.

As stated earlier in the thread: I'm not going to be the one setting the final price for the higher quality CD because it was mainly worked on by someone else. He will talk about them when they are here. I asked for his help many months ago and he helped. I stated earlier that I don't know the shipping prices so I don't know the end price yet, or the price per CD for his help. Once all the info comes in, I assure everyone, this will be the first place I post it. I really hope people stop speculating. It just makes other people worry unnecessarily. I'm not going to let anyone down.
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post #3330 of 10763 Old 03-21-2012, 04:53 PM
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At the end of the day this is just a hobby and some people are being way too cautious.

...The same people who will gladly drop 80+ bucks on a bottle of scotch that will last two hours.

I will most certainly be buying some of the compression drivers, simply BECAUSE they're a DIY effort.

Warranty? What part of DIY has ever had anything to do with warranty? You blow a driver, it's an opportunity to get a new pair and start from scratch. You blow an amp, it's an opportunity to do surgery on it. You spent $200 on a big ass compression driver?? You wife spent $500 on a big ass purse.

I totally understand the desire to protect an investment as an end user. But what part of DIY is about being an end user? It's about instant-gratification and never-satisfaction.

I'm glad to get a chance to tinker with a SEOS. I still don't honestly believe my speaker will outperform a Summa or an SH50 or a Philharmonic. In fact I already know a pair of philharmonics will probably sound better than the SEOS build i'm doing.

DIY for the sake of DIY, not for the sake of being frugal, please. If you want to be frugal then you're in it for the wrong reasons. there's high value in DIY but it's no different an investment than a golf club membership. You lose money, don't whine about it it. It ain't a toaster.. you don't need speakers to make breakfast for you every morning.

Erich ain't doin this to make money. he's doing it for the love of DIY. Something I wish a few of you guys would try to remember. If you've got concerns, why not just consider the worst case scenario and decide for yourself whether it's worth it to you? if it isn't, then don't bother... your livelyhood does not depend on compression drivers or waveguides.

Same applies to the acoustic elegance stuff IMO. Sure there's high risk. We do it for the high reward.
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