Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 127 - AVS Forum
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post #3781 of 11387 Old 05-09-2012, 10:47 AM
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I'm working on mine for a while now but spring has sprung and the motorcycling world keeps me working long hours so progress has been slow. I'm building mine with a modular approach in the vein of Wilson Audio with a separate bass module, mid enclosure and enclosure for the horn......a mini PA stack if you will. I'll not be asking the 12" mid (Deltalight) to play much below 80 hz as I want to keep the mids as clean as possible. The mid enclosure I'll be using will be 2cuft sealed. And will sit on top,of the bass bins. I built a test box and tried sealed and ported and found I preferred the sealed. The waveguide will have its own enclosure and will also contain the passive network. The way I've worked it out it will allow for easier alignment of the drivers acoustic centers without the need for rear mounting the mid. It's also going to be quite tall overall at 5 ft so i've planned for a tiltable horn enclosure. It's going to be interesting to measure the resonate of the mid and horn intersecting and what that does to the forward lobe and null(s). Revamped bass bins are in process from the originals which have been reduced to 4.3cuft net and the tune raised to 20hz. Front slot port is being replace with a downfiring port using Polk's power port spreadsheets. This part of the system is all active with a 25hz high pass and 140hz cutoff up top. I've found running the sealed mids full range and overlapping the bass ins integrates extremely well with each other. I won't have any pics to show until after the july4th holidays as that's when I can go back to a 50hr work week as the cycling season begins to slow.
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post #3782 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If anyone has any cabinet volume or dimensions they are good, please let me know so I can start planning something out. That way we've got things to pick from once they finally arrive in a few weeks.

While I know there's a lot of push towards sealed (and no doubt I've been a part of it) I'm thinking an ML-TL that follows the basic concept of the Audio Kinesis Rythim Prism:



My reasoning for an ML-TL is simple:

It's easy for anyone to design a good sealed box.

But when it comes to vented boxes, most people flat out get it wrong. Poor vent placement, undersized vents, poor driver placement, poor tuning, and incorrect box volume are actually big culprits. The biggest mistake made is the assumption that winISD for example can give you a great vented box for a main speaker. Further, some people flat out want tower speakers, and it's slim pickings out there.

I know I'd be able to sell my cousin, for example, on a SEOS-12 tower, no subs, but not a stand-mount SEOS-12 + 3 subs. Of course, selling those 3 subs after,

The drawback of the ML-TL of course is that you have to pick a driver and go with it. Sealed is more open to different drivers.
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post #3783 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

While I know there's a lot of push towards sealed (and no doubt I've been a part of it) I'm thinking an ML-TL that follows the basic concept of the Audio Kinesis Rythim Prism:

My reasoning for an ML-TL is simple:

It's easy for anyone to design a good sealed box.

But when it comes to vented boxes, most people flat out get it wrong. Poor vent placement, undersized vents, poor driver placement, poor tuning, and incorrect box volume are actually big culprits. The biggest mistake made is the assumption that winISD for example can give you a great vented box for a main speaker. Further, some people flat out want tower speakers, and it's slim pickings out there.

I know I'd be able to sell my cousin, for example, on a SEOS-12 tower, no subs, but not a stand-mount SEOS-12 + 3 subs. Of course, selling those 3 subs after,

The drawback of the ML-TL of course is that you have to pick a driver and go with it. Sealed is more open to different drivers.

I like those mains better than a short bookshelf one(and would buy some). Is the Deltalite II 2512 a good choice? If not ML-TL at least a proted box in that style for the 2512.
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post #3784 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisdamani View Post

If not ML-TL at least a proted box in that style for the 2512.

Any decently tall (non cubic) ported box will already be an ML-TL. If you don't model it as an ML-TL, you will not get good results, and end up with the classic "ported loudspeaker" midrange/midbass sound because of response ripple.
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post #3785 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 10:49 AM
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Okay, thanks for the info
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post #3786 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 12:13 PM
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The Deltalight 12 is a great option for Fullranger as it digs deeper than most pro 12's and it's efficient to boot.

But don't expect thunderous bass output.....they won't take the place of subwoofers. That corner loaded design is pretty well thought out but might not meet the needs of every setup as the preset toe in is going to dictate the listening distance. It could be adjusted to suit during the build.
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post #3787 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

While I know there's a lot of push towards sealed (and no doubt I've been a part of it) I'm thinking an ML-TL that follows the basic concept of the Audio Kinesis Rythim Prism:



My reasoning for an ML-TL is simple:

I'm seeing flawed reasoning, strawmen and rationalisations.
The AKRP is quite a good design for what Duke intended it for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

It's easy for anyone to design a good sealed box.

Generally. And much less easy to do an MLTL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

But when it comes to vented boxes, most people flat out get it wrong.

Rubbish. Evidence please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Poor vent placement, undersized vents, poor driver placement, poor tuning, and incorrect box volume are actually big culprits.

I've never seen someone post a detailed design here where these are not relatively quickly seen, discussed and alternatives provided. If someone then chooses to build a poor design in the light of such advice, then that is their choice.
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

The biggest mistake made is the assumption that winISD for example can give you a great vented box for a main speaker.

What? WinISD is basically useful for working out tuning, nothing else. It shows two standard models as options (QB3 and SBB4 IIRC) but you can still choose everything else yourself and make non standard alignments such as LLT easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Further, some people flat out want tower speakers, and it's slim pickings out there.

The slim picking are ONLY if you choose to use someone else's existing design exactly. there is nothing stopping you taking say a Zilch ported Ewave and resigning the enclosure to a slim tower, whether shaped like the AKRP or rectangular X section. It's just some simple geometry.

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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I know I'd be able to sell my cousin, for example, on a SEOS-12 tower, no subs, but not a stand-mount SEOS-12 + 3 subs. Of course, selling those 3 subs after,

Why not a stand mount SEOS12 for not and subs which are stand replacements later. We should all know the response issues with those placement choices, but in that regard you can only work with what your cousin can do in his room. This suggestion will have no more/less response issues than an MLTL in the same position.

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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

The drawback of the ML-TL of course is that you have to pick a driver and go with it. Sealed is more open to different drivers.

Only if you use a pre selected box. Starting from scratch should not be an issue for either, if your design is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Any decently tall (non cubic) ported box will already be an ML-TL.

Bollocks. You'll need to prove this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

If you don't model it as an ML-TL, you will not get good results, and end up with the classic "ported loudspeaker" midrange/midbass sound because of response ripple.

No, that's just poor design.

MLTL are much more difficult to design and get right than ported or sealed. To make an MLTL you need Martin's software too, though I believe Hornresp can come pretty close. As the Deltalite 12 was mentioned, you are going to have difficulty getting an MLTL for that (or similar 12") into a box of similar size/shape the the AKRP, especially if you want a tuning that could reasonably replace a system that had some sub capability, not just F3 at 40Hz. On this last point, an MLTL is not a magic alignment: you will still have the volume displacement limitation of most HE 12" - the DL12 has an Xmax of <3mm.

Go ahead and build whatever you want, but an MLTL is really only best for those who can generally have a much larger enclosure than for a sealed or 4th/6th order ported and are scared of EQ and/or subs.
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post #3788 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I wouldn't call them "irregularities" - in fact "regularities" might be more accurate. It's the acoustic elegance drivers which are irregular!

Sorry for the late reply. Absolutely, "regularities" would be a much more accurate description. Didn't mean to imply that your reference to the impedance measurement was abnormal, it was just my wording (and lack of general understanding of those sweeps - I'm learning though). Those measured rises in impedance across the stretch of frequencies you pointed out are indeed quite normal, but ultimately it was the comparison of data (impedance/phase, Fs, Qts, sensitivity, off-axis response, copper Faraday, etc.) that compelled me to side with AE's design. I agree that in comparison to the AE, the afore mentioned measurements certainly appear "irregular" to those drivers that share similar parameters. There appears to be a more gradual rise in impedance at certain frequencies between the 12" AE and Faital, yes? All-in-all, I've really tried to understand and adhere to the adage that inspires one to explore audio in a more applied way, "More Data, Less Wank." Words to live by and learn from.

Speaking of "wank"... have you seen the Faital Pro pr vid on YouTube?
Pretty cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2etqOVpLtT8

Quote:


For reference, Troels Graveson has worked with some of the finest Hi-Fi drivers on the planet from Scanspeak, Seas, etc. When it got down to developing his own driver (A High Sensitivity Seas Excel unit for the most part), which he (of course with bias) considers his personal favorite, the measurements actually showed some "impedance problems".

What you have to remember however, is that a more sensitive driver will apparently magnify the impedance issues. The impedance can make you panic, but that doesn't mean you should panic. Even this scanspeak revelator shows a pretty big bump:

And it's not as signfiicantly "visible" in a lower efficiency design

Thanks for the Graveson info btw. Checked out some of the Excel drivers, noticed most of them were in the 80-90-ish sensitivity range and I didn't see any impedance/phase measurements in the data sheets to compare. Were the sweeps of the driver he was working on ever published?

Quote:


I do want to apologize if I gave you any apprehension. The acoustic elegance drivers are certainly irregular, but i'm not 100% sure any of those things are audible once linear response is carefully addressed.

So yeah, you've caused no apprehension at all. Instead, I feel much more informed as it allowed a bit more research...which to me is half the fun!

-Nate
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post #3789 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

The AKRP is quite a good design for what Duke intended it for.

Why are you arguing with me then for suggesting it?

Quote:


What? WinISD is basically useful for working out tuning, nothing else. It shows two standard models as options (QB3 and SBB4 IIRC) but you can still choose everything else yourself and make non standard alignments such as LLT easily.

And it won't be an accurate sim for anything but a subwoofer.

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The slim picking are ONLY if you choose to use someone else's existing design exactly.

Erich is asking for advice on what to do as far as FLAT PACK kits are concerned. That sort of, kind of IMPLIES "choosing to use someone else's existing design exactly"

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Why not a stand mount SEOS12 for not and subs which are stand replacements later.

..what? What part of "He doesn't want a stand mount" did you miss? Are you just trying to argue with my every statement to boost your ego or something? Not everyone WANTS a stand mount. Get over your high horse with being offended by my suggestion of a tower.

Quote:


Only if you use a pre selected box. Starting from scratch should not be an issue for either, if your design is good.

We`re... TALKING about "pre selected boxes". You know... FLAT PACKs.

Quote:


Bollocks. You'll need to prove this.

No, you'll need to prove it's "Bullocks". Martin King himself has said that the differences between vented and ML-TL become extremely blurry, and that once a vented box has one dimension which is around 3 times the other two dimensions, it edges more towards quarter wave behavior, unless you absorb all the internal standing waves.

Quote:


No, that's just poor design.

No, it's poor implentation of typical ported loudspeaker design, which suffers from lots of response ripple leaking through the vent without lots of internal absorption. Again, this is a ****ing flat pack. Why wouldn`t people set themselves up for success from the initial design stage, rather than compensate for half-assed designingÉ

Quote:


MLTL are much more difficult to design and get right than ported or sealed.

They're no less difficult to designthan ported, and once designed, are a lot easier to get right. Especially for a noob building a flat pack - since they're not sensitive to inches upon inches of insulation lining to reduce standing waves.


Quote:


To make an MLTL you need Martin's software too, though I believe Hornresp can come pretty close.

...which is why I was offering to design an ML-TL using Martin's software if everyone else was interested.

Quote:


As the Deltalite 12 was mentioned, you are going to have difficulty getting an MLTL for that (or similar 12") into a box of similar size/shape the the AKRP, especially if you want a tuning that could reasonably replace a system that had some sub capability, not just F3 at 40Hz.

There are other drivers which require smaller boxes than the Deltalite.

F3 at 40hz is a lot deeper than F3 at 90hz. And many people do want towers, not giant stand mounts.

Quote:


On this last point, an MLTL is not a magic alignment: you will still have the volume displacement limitation of most HE 12" - the DL12 has an Xmax of <3mm.

NO one said ML-TL is any magic alignment. Again, what's with the attitude?

Quote:


Go ahead and build whatever you want, but an MLTL is really only best for those who can generally have a much larger enclosure than for a sealed or 4th/6th order ported and are scared of EQ and/or subs.

And you think you're "educating" me with this?

Get over yourself. Some people want ****ing towers. If you don't, no one's stopping YOU from building whatever you want. I was making a suggestion for a flat pack, and people always want tower flat packs. Many are turned off from the econowave format simply because of the stand mount "look".

Any proportionally tall ported loudspeaker will start to behave as a mass loaded transmission line. that's what an ML-TL IS. The only way to rectify that is with extremely aggressive absorption... which is just unecessary... if you can get the same results by modifying a few inches and vent placement.

Why are you even subscribed to this thread? All you do is attack other posters at opportunities where you can prop yourself up. Lose the aggression, it's NOT asked for. Post something productive for once. The rest of us are here because we enjoy this hobby, not to act like know-it-alls. Because you don`t know it all, nor does anyone else in this thread. No one benefits from you flaunting yourself as an expert yet contributing zilch. Er, contributing nada.
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post #3790 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 04:45 PM
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Not to get involved in any king of dispute, A9X-308, but you do seem to be groundlessly attacking a good idea... MLTL's are not that difficult to design if you have Marin King's software (and MathCad). Tall ported boxes will not model correctly in WinISD. It seems like a nice idea for a flat pack. I've got a Eminence Delta 12lf in a MLTL and am quite pleased with it.....
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post #3791 of 11387 Old 05-11-2012, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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it seems that there was just a little confusion that a "pre-designed, pre-cut, flat pack" is what was being discussed.

erich's question was about getting some ideas cooking on design.

i like the studio monitor look personally.

the countersunk driver would be a neat feature, as would large roundovers, if that is possible on the baffle.

i like duke's design as well too.
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post #3792 of 11387 Old 05-13-2012, 02:00 AM
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post #3793 of 11387 Old 05-13-2012, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it seems that there was just a little confusion that a "pre-designed, pre-cut, flat pack" is what was being discussed.

erich's question was about getting some ideas cooking on design.

i like the studio monitor look personally.

the countersunk driver would be a neat feature, as would large roundovers, if that is possible on the baffle.

i like duke's design as well too.

I really like the slot port design. My goals would be the smallest form factor that would get to 60Hz. The slot port looks good and keeps the cabinet dimensions to a minimum while keeping it front firing which makes placement easier. I can't wait for designs to start coming in on these!
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post #3794 of 11387 Old 05-13-2012, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisdamani View Post

I like those mains better than a short bookshelf one(and would buy some). Is the Deltalite II 2512 a good choice? If not ML-TL at least a proted box in that style for the 2512.

Greets!

Yes, prosound drivers in general have good specs for such alignments.

Just running the numbers' using published specs for smaller cabs for mounting a horn on top yields a ~5.19 ft^3 net/32 Hz Fb alignment using a 40 path-length with the driver at the top and a 6 dia. x 6 long vent near/at the bottom [1st sim]. A basic reflex alignment stretched in length just enough to be defined as a MLTL, damping the vent enough to lob off ~3 of its length WRT a simple ducted port reflex's ~9 long one.

An even better damped alignment with the same net Vb, Fb, height, driver offset and vent area is a one fold ~80 path-length, zero throat area ML-Voigt pipe with a 2.5 long vent near/at the bottom, lobbing off ~6.5 [2nd sim].

All dims are inside [i.d.] and sims have a minimal 0.25 lbs/ft^3 stuffing density of polyfil.

Anyway, just a couple of examples to prove its viability.

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post #3795 of 11387 Old 05-14-2012, 04:59 PM
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Good news guys. Looks like everything should be arriving in about 2 weeks or so.

Not sure how long customs will look over the compression drivers and parts but I got a call today and was told the shipment should be arriving in Seattle on the 18th and they should be delivered to my place by May 31. I don't know if she was calculating the average time customs will look over everything or not.

What kind of stinks about this is that I have no idea how much customs fees will be or all the taxes they'll be adding in. And brokerage fees too. But it should be a good learning experience. I can't lie, it's all kind of scary and there will be a big relief once it's all here. Fingers crossed that everything goes smoothly.


The raffle drawing for the pre-orders will be towards the end of the month. I'm also going to print something up listing all the people that helped get this done.
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post #3796 of 11387 Old 05-15-2012, 03:28 AM
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Oh boy!
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post #3797 of 11387 Old 05-17-2012, 12:17 PM
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[quote=Eternal Velocity;22012625]Why are you arguing with me then for suggesting it?
And it won't be an accurate sim for anything but a subwoofer.
Comment : Precisely because of this kind of hickhack I have stopped to read this thread. Depressing to watch this kind of agressive and inappropriate exchanges. imo : Eternal Velocity has voiced his personal opinion, no reason to get poisonous against him, even if he were wrong on certain points. Friendly advice : Try to correct the errors of your friends, make better proposals, don't attack people personally. That is good style and constructive attitude.
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post #3798 of 11387 Old 05-17-2012, 12:47 PM
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[quote=Toscano;22034334]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Why are you arguing with me then for suggesting it?
And it won't be an accurate sim for anything but a subwoofer.
Comment : Precisely because of this kind of hickhack I have stopped to read this thread. Depressing to watch this kind of agressive and inappropriate exchanges. imo : Eternal Velocity has voiced his personal opinion, no reason to get poisonous against him, even if he were wrong on certain points. Friendly advice : Try to correct the errors of your friends, make better proposals, don't attack people personally. That is good style and constructive attitude.

Just be glad there's aren't many women on these threads, just think what they'd turn into.

Any news on the flat packs?

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post #3799 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 06:31 AM
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I have confirmation that the items have made land fall in Seattle and everything should be delivered in about 10-11 days or so.

I won't know customs fees, brokerage fees, and duty fees until Tuesday. That worries me a little bit, but it is what it is. There's no turning back now.
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post #3800 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I have confirmation that the items have made land fall in Seattle and everything should be delivered in about 10-11 days or so.

I won't know customs fees, brokerage fees, and duty fees until Tuesday. That worries me a little bit, but it is what it is. There's no turning back now.

I bet you're excited.

In my opinion there shouldn't be duty fees, just a nominal inspection fees. Hopefully it's very little.

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post #3801 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 03:16 PM
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Newbie here. Being a musician and having owned various sets of horn speakers over the years, I've always liked the ease with which they handle enormous dynamic range.

Currently I'm in the process of assembling a system that can handle both two-channel (or more) music and 5.1 or 7.1 audio for home theater. I've scoured various AV and audio forums looking for decent sound on the cheap. I must admit that my standards are pretty high, given that I've listened to and played live music for decades (don't ask how many). I've also heard too many high end systems over the years and know what is possible (upgrader's curse?).

Anyway, I fortunately (or is it unfortunately?!) live near a Fry's Electronics (yes, they get too much of my money) and recently was able to purchase some floor-standing, conventional (non-horn) tower speakers recommended by quite a few folks on the Internet that have searched far and wide for "decent-sound-on-a-nickel". I got a ridiculously low price and the sound is quite good, especially given the very small investment.

BUT... (yes, always the but...) I miss the ease with which my old Klipsches present the music. There is a bit too much congestion on these new speakers when large ensembles are performing loud, complex music. I'm also not getting the fullness of sound I'd like. Part of it is that I've not yet purchased a sub, so I'm missing the lowest octave-plus. Part of it is some mid-range congestion, which would likely be helped some by the addition of the sub. Still, I don't believe that crossing over to a sub, say at 80Hz, would completely solve the problems, for reasons I won't get into here.

Anyway, that's all just background leading up to my stumbling upon this thread. I'm very interested in this project of a DIY two-way horn speaker, simply because I believe that it would be nearly ideal for a person with my preferences, which are:
  • low distortion
  • wide, effortless dynamic range
  • dynamic headroom
  • flat frequency response
  • "full" sound (lower midrange not too thin or "small" sounding)
  • and last (but certainly not least), finding that $2-5K/pair sound for dimes on the dollar
  • (well... plus I think I'd take pride in putting my BST into this project AND just might really, really LOVE answering questions like "How much did those speakers cost?" and "Where'd you get those?" ...double )

Is it still possible to take part in however this all works? I obviously have not pre-ordered anything. Also, I have never built a speaker before, so would something like a flat-pack be a good start for me? I'm pretty handy and follow instructions well. I also have a friend who has built a number of speakers including some of his own design that could help with probably anything and everything right down to finishing the cabinetry.

So again, is this something I can still get in on? And, do you all think that a newbie can successfully do this build (with possibly some help from an experienced friend)?
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post #3802 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pianoman88 View Post

So again, is this something I can still get in on? And, do you all think that a newbie can successfully do this build (with possibly some help from an experienced friend)?

Sure, jump right in. Actually very few of the SEOS horns have been delivered so you are getting in early, not late. Regarding build complexity, this is more or less "open source" so some builds will be simple and some will be a complex as you want to make it.

Welcome aboard!
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post #3803 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 06:19 PM
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A little history:
Where it all began by Zilch (now passed away), threads are still active, and many designs are ready and available:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...95#post1617195
and
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

Erich, bwaslo, and others picked up the ball and are running with DIYsoundgroup.com, where all types of DIY parts, kits, and designs are or will be available. Typically the waveguide cabinets are nothing special, but the drivers are specially selected and equipped with fine tuned crossovers for premium performance, and are designed around parts readily available. Check out the forum for latest SEOS designs.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/

Most of these cabinet builds should be easy for anyone with prior experience, it really doesn't get any simpler to get phenomenal performance.
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post #3804 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 06:52 PM
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Thanks for the welcome, Don and Z. Going to check out those links right away!
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post #3805 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 06:56 PM
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BTW, I'm thinking a 2-way, 12-inch SEAS speaker. At this point am I correct in assuming that I would need to build my own cabinets (as opposed to buying a "flat-pack")? If so, I'm guessing I should probably start my foray into DIY with a simpler, much cheaper speaker build that includes cabinets before messing around with something like this that uses higher quality (i.e., higher cost) parts.

This could be fun!
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post #3806 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 07:03 PM
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Sorry for all the posts but had to get to three before I can post links. Here's a helpful page I ran across with lots of links to various DIY speaker kits (not SEAS) and resources:
Speaker DIY/Kit Suggestions

I'll have to read more in forums about DIY Speakers, particularly something like this Speaker Building Tutorial. With your help, eventually I'll get this all figured out.
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post #3807 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pianoman88 View Post

BTW, I'm thinking a 2-way, 12-inch SEAS speaker. At this point am I correct in assuming that I would need to build my own cabinets (as opposed to buying a "flat-pack")? If so, I'm guessing I should probably start my foray into DIY with a simpler, much cheaper speaker build that includes cabinets before messing around with something like this that uses higher quality (i.e., higher cost) parts.

This could be fun!

Eh cabinet building is the fun part!!! I have some old advent loudspeaker cabinets a friend GAVE me on hold for an SEOS project. I hope to refinish the wood on the outside in the near future so by the time everything is available Ill just have to just drop the horns and new drivers in! ED could also build you some cabs pretty easily, but I do tend to enjoy building the cabs regardless

Erich did say that some flat packs would more than likely be available with some of the most popular builds IIRC

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

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post #3808 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pianoman88 View Post

BTW, I'm thinking a 2-way, 12-inch SEAS speaker. At this point am I correct in assuming that I would need to build my own cabinets (as opposed to buying a "flat-pack")? If so, I'm guessing I should probably start my foray into DIY with a simpler, much cheaper speaker build that includes cabinets before messing around with something like this that uses higher quality (i.e., higher cost) parts.

This could be fun!

If you aren't in a hurry and you don't want to cut wood, just wait for Erich H and see what he comes up with for flat packs. Basically you would just need to screw and glue them together then mount the drivers. You would probably need to either paint or veneer them if you want them to look nice.

For more money, you could commission a local kitchen cabinet builder. It is really not very difficult. If you decide to do this, come back to the forum and collectively we could help you spec it out.

As far as budget goes, there will be a wide range of price points hit because of all the hard work Erich has put in. His house-brand compression drivers mated to some plastic SEOS-12's and a Dayton 12" woofer shouldn't break the bank. I'm confident it is well-suited to each of your bullet points. IMO, you would have to search long and hard to find something more well-suited AND reasonably priced (certainly far outmatching any mid-level Klipsch stuff).

Definitely stick and around. You will begin to learn afew things and all of this will start to really makes sense. Just don't be afraid to ask honest questions and accept honest advice.
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post #3809 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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"Where it all began by Zilch"

not! but i know what you mean... :-)

it all began back with the lansing iconic...in the 1930's

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...mco/iconic.htm

pianoman,

the core concept of a high sensitivity 2-way with controlled directivity was advanced and refined by many companies over the years, but as waf set in during the early '90s, big hair was out and so were big speakers.

then we went through the dark ages of modern audio--bose cubes, tiny towers, and the rest of it.

recently, we have had a renaissance in audio where big, high efficiency speakers are making a comeback...

because these systems tend to rely on expensive components, many people get priced out of the market as a result of multiple retail markups. then enter a few diy companies with good offerings and z with his econowave project.

many thought that was a good as it could get $ for $ and if you were one of them, you'd be wrong. enter the SEOStm project. somehow across the past 126 pages of the thread were people coming in from all directions to create something new, something that the diy community had never seen before--a ground up development of a waveguide that minimizes compromises in a two-way design. folks have stepped in with money and time, crossover designs, engineered new compression drivers, and flatpack enclosures are the next step. it is getting really close. just a little more time and the final product is going to be really difficult to beat bang-for-the-buck. high sensitivity/large dynamics, low distortion, NO HORN HONK, controlled/matched directivity, speakers, in low cost flat pack "kits" for 75% less than the cost of comparable retail.

just as with any project where one has to rely on the performance of other folks, it takes a little longer than one would hope, but hang in there.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #3810 of 11387 Old 05-20-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If you aren't in a hurry and you don't want to cut wood, just wait for Erich H and see what he comes up with for flat packs. Basically you would just need to screw and glue them together then mount the drivers. You would probably need to either paint or veneer them if you want them to look nice.

For more money, you could commission a local kitchen cabinet builder. It is really not very difficult. If you decide to do this, come back to the forum and collectively we could help you spec it out.

As far as budget goes, there will be a wide range of price points hit because of all the hard work Erich has put in. His house-brand compression drivers mated to some plastic SEOS-12's and a Dayton 12" woofer shouldn't break the bank. I'm confident it is well-suited to each of your bullet points. IMO, you would have to search long and hard to find something more well-suited AND reasonably priced (certainly far outmatching any mid-level Klipsch stuff).

Definitely stick and around. You will begin to learn afew things and all of this will start to really makes sense. Just don't be afraid to ask honest questions and accept honest advice.

Thanks. Your reply itself is very helpful. Now the hard part will be waiting for the flat packs. Of course in the meantime I might start with a cheap, simple build and start acquiring tools, parts, knowledge and experience...all the while "de-acquiring" $$$! Ummm...prob'ly not. (C'mon, proven designs and flat packs!)
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