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post #5581 of 11446 Old 11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
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It wasn't clear to me who was working on which, but I thought at least one of the well known highly regarded designers was doing a XO for the 2206.
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Originally Posted by moxxy*mig View Post

Waaay back it was stated that Dennis Murphy and Jeff Bagby were doing designs. Details of the Bagby designs recently started trickling out but not a peep on the Murphy stuff, and I had the impression that he was taking on the JBL-based design. Whether or not that included the 2206h, I donno. Guess we'll see in a few weeks unless EricH feels like spilling more beans. Unless, of course, someone else is working on stuff. Which I guess is what you're asking.

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post #5582 of 11446 Old 11-14-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

It wasn't clear to me who was working on which, but I thought at least one of the well known highly regarded designers was doing a XO for the 2206.

My recollection was:

Bagby -- "mid-priced" woofer first, maybe AE later since he's a fan
Murphy -- JBL (agreed, 12" driver was my recollection)
mystery-but-"well-known"-designer -- SEOS10-based design
Then I thought there was work Pete Schumacher from the PE boards was doing, donno where that ended up.
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post #5583 of 11446 Old 11-14-2012, 04:34 PM
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post #5584 of 11446 Old 11-14-2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Okay, one of the designers gave me permission to mention his name. It's going to be Dennis Murphy. I think this speaker will be very good. biggrin.gif
...
I'm fairly confident he will be designing around the JBL 12". If anyone has other recommendations, let me know. If not, that's what I'll get. I will be making the enclosure this weekend and shipping it to him.
Please help recommend an enclosure size.

There we go, I knew we weren't crazy. Any news here Eric, or should we just sit tight for a while longer?
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post #5585 of 11446 Old 11-15-2012, 04:15 PM
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Are there any designs using the BA-750 compression driver? Any benefit using this driver other than increased cost? Obviously a lower crossover point can be used. Would this driver work well in a seos 12 with a 2512 deltalite? Im not afraid of the addtl cost as my alternative is to buy something retail, so I can justify the additional cost if there is an increase in sound quality. How about an active crossover using mini-dsp? I have no skills(which may be obvious by my line of questions)smile.gif so i would have to leach off of someone expertise and knowledge. What is the best(sound quality/measured) design/highest quality components so far?

Thanks for any input.
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post #5586 of 11446 Old 11-15-2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bexar View Post

Are there any designs using the BA-750 compression driver? Any benefit using this driver other than increased cost? Obviously a lower crossover point can be used. Would this driver work well in a seos 12 with a 2512 deltalite? Im not afraid of the addtl cost as my alternative is to buy something retail, so I can justify the additional cost if there is an increase in sound quality. How about an active crossover using mini-dsp? I have no skills(which may be obvious by my line of questions)smile.gif so i would have to leach off of someone expertise and knowledge. What is the best(sound quality/measured) design/highest quality components so far?
Thanks for any input.

There would be no benefit to using the BA-750 with the SEOS-12, so you should save your money.
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post #5587 of 11446 Old 11-15-2012, 08:13 PM
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I'll try and expand on Erich's comment a little.

The BA-750 only offers an advantage when crossing over at a lower frequency then the DNA-360 is capable of. However the DNA-360 is able to take advantage of the full useful range in which the SEOS-12 maintains pattern control. To really take advantage of the BA would require a waveguide that will maintain pattern control down to 500-600hz which is how low the BA can be used. Something like the SEOS-15/18 would be a better match. You should also use a larger woofer or pairs of woofers so that their directivity matches, or is close to that of the waveguide at your crossover frequency.
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post #5588 of 11446 Old 11-16-2012, 09:58 AM
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Makes perfect sense to me.....as I have none when it comes to this stuff.biggrin.gif I get it though, even with my limited knowleged of this stuff, I had followed Zilch the greats thread while he was still with us, As well as Geddes(the design that first peeked my interest and had considered building a pair of his). DNA-360 it is then, which is awesome, cuz its half the price.smile.gif

Anyone have thoughts or plans using mini-dsp or similar?

Thanks for the response.
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post #5589 of 11446 Old 11-16-2012, 10:32 AM
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MTG, I would actually say the BA driver is really only beneficial on the SEOS-18. The DNA-360 plays low enough for the SEOS-15 in a home setting. Maybe not at nightclub levels, but that is probably not the intended use.

Bexar, if you have an understanding of speaker and crossover design and the ability to measure and preferably model, the MiniDSP can work well. I generally point people towards using a passive crossover design from an experienced designer.

A good passive is much much better than a poorly done DSP.
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post #5590 of 11446 Old 11-16-2012, 12:07 PM
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Bexar. I'm surprised we haven't seen more active builds. I was posting active settings for a while, but it only confused people. It's a handful of people that want active. With that though, I'm sure if you asked the designer of what ever build you chose for active settings, they could provide them.
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post #5591 of 11446 Old 11-17-2012, 04:04 AM
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I found active (miniDSP) to be relatively easy compared with passive crossover design. My current active fronts (L/C/R + subs) measure very well, much better than any passive one's I've built.
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post #5592 of 11446 Old 11-17-2012, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I found active (miniDSP) to be relatively easy compared with passive crossover design. My current active fronts (L/C/R + subs) measure very well, much better than any passive one's I've built.

Certainly that is possible, and there is nothing wrong with using DSP. The problem is that I've helped too many people who figured it was easy as setting two LR24's at 1000hz and matching levels. Then they complain that the drivers or horns are junk (haven't come across this with an SEOS people yet). You can't get around taking measurements and IMO you still need to model rather than just tweak until flat. It is certainly easier than someone trying to learn passive crossover design, but it isn't plug and play.

When you add in the need for external amps and a doubling of the number of channels, I generally don't see the point. Assuming the same overall cost, choosing between lesser drivers with DSP or better drivers with a well-designed passive I'd go passive.

To prove that I'm not "anti-DSP", I actually use MiniDSPs in some of my speakers. For more complex 3-ways I actually like doing the hybrid passive/DSP route with passive between the HF and mid and DSP between the mid/hf and bass.
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post #5593 of 11446 Old 11-17-2012, 08:23 AM
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+1 Max. Especially the part about 3-ways.
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post #5594 of 11446 Old 11-17-2012, 02:17 PM
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Hey all,

Pardon me if this is a really stupid question... It may be. I see a bunch of identical L/C/R and hear a lot about the directivity of the waveguide. Does that mean that the SEOS would be a bad choice for music vs HT? My use for speakers is 70-80% music, 15% listening to gunfire and explosions while the kids play yet another FPS (what happened to Scrabble!?) and the rest is movies. A lot of my listening right is off axis (left of the left speaker) from my kitchen or side of the room but that usually does not bother me for casual background listening.

As I am looking into getting (or building) some good speakers my #1 priority is a smallish footprint (bookshelf-ish) that will give me a full sound from a variety of locations. Would an SEOS 12 setup do that? I also plan to audition the Soundfield monitor 1. I know this is probably an apples to oranges comparison but budget wise, using one of Erich's $390 flat packs as an example, an SEOS-12 L/C/R plus a sub (even a commercial one, let's say the SB12) and two monitors and a center but no sub are probably in the same ballpark. I wonder if they're a worthy comparison.
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post #5595 of 11446 Old 11-17-2012, 05:37 PM
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I've never heard a soundfield monitor 1, but based on their web info;

The monitor 1 will be way smaller when you consider it's sub is built in.

The SEOS will be way more dynamic and have true bass with a real subwoofer (or go with Bill's designer series and no sub, probably still better bass than the 8" subs in the monitor 1).

Both should be fairly equal in terms of off axis listening. The SEOS will be controlled directivity and the monitor 1 is a coax, so that's good. It's really size vs performance. The SEOS + subs will be much bigger, but I'd say much better. Again though, there isn't much to go by on the monitor 1. A lot of coax tweeters have a ragged response. KEFs is pretty good, but many are not.
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post #5596 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 07:43 AM
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Intermodulation distortion with and without Aquaplas - much below 1 Watt (BK 2012 analyzer). Driver is D800Ti on poured SEOS-12.


Aquaplas_2.png 611k .png file
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post #5597 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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very nice data jza.

the aquaplas really kills some of those resonances.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #5598 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 12:02 PM
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Interesting are those midrange peaks - I will change base frequency and track changes. My movie:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0ByP8kkW_h00uM05GWmhoN2huaEE
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post #5599 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I've never heard a soundfield monitor 1, but based on their web info;

The monitor 1 will be way smaller when you consider it's sub is built in.

The SEOS will be way more dynamic and have true bass with a real subwoofer (or go with Bill's designer series and no sub, probably still better bass than the 8" subs in the monitor 1).

Both should be fairly equal in terms of off axis listening. The SEOS will be controlled directivity and the monitor 1 is a coax, so that's good. It's really size vs performance. The SEOS + subs will be much bigger, but I'd say much better. Again though, there isn't much to go by on the monitor 1. A lot of coax tweeters have a ragged response. KEFs is pretty good, but many are not.

I have heard the SAM1. smile.gif

Here are my thoughts on the comparison. The most important difference is that the SAM1 throws a much wider pattern than the SEOS: like 120ishº vs. 80-90º. Practically, that means IMO that the SEOS-based speaker can be closer to the sidewalls without image smearing, but the SAM1 will throw an image outside the edges of the speakers whereas I expect an SEOS design will be like other narrower-pattern speakers in throwing an image basically limited in width the cabinet edges. After that is the efficiency/output thing. I really only heard one point of minor weakness on the SAM1, congestion in the upper bass/lower mids at really high volume.

Another relevant and material difference is that one has to run both power and signal wires to the SAM1.

Also, I'd guess that the SAM1 would have a bass extension edge over the typical SEOS design. The 8" woofer he uses has more volume displacement than the typical "pro" 12" midwoofer - perhaps not something like the B&C 12TBX100, but most of 'em - and the high powered plate amp does offer dynamic benefits at the top of the sub's range. The SAM1 also benefits from subs, because the in room bass response of all un-augmented stereo speakers sucks. It's the room, not the speakers, that make it so.

Overall, my preference would more likely than not be a SEOS-based speaker, if cabinet width were not an issue. But I'm not building a set (or using my old Tannoy 12's) because for me (like a lot of people) cabinet width/bulk is an issue...

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post #5600 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 05:15 PM
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While an 8 inch sub driver will usually have more xmax than a 12inch pro woofer, it's volume displacement that matters. An 8 inch would need more than double the xmax of a 12 inch to reach the same volume displacement. Now, a 12" SUB...

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post #5601 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

While an 8 inch sub driver will usually have more xmax than a 12inch pro woofer, it's volume displacement that matters. An 8 inch would need more than double the xmax of a 12 inch to reach the same volume displacement. Now, a 12" SUB...

Right.

Here, we're talking about an 8" woofer with a geometric xmax of 11.5mm (32mm coil in 9mm gap). Given that Sd is ~215cm^2, The volume displacement (Sd * Xmax * 2) a hair short of half a liter (500cc)

By contrast, an Eminence Deltalite 2512 has an xmax of 4.9mm and an Sd of 520cm^2. So the volume displacement is very slightly greater (a hair below 510cc). Something like a B&C 12TBX100 will have more volume displacement, because it has a similar-sized piston as the Deltalite, but a lot more throw.

But that assumes enough power to push the woofer to xmax down low. The SAM1 needs about 250W to reach xmax down low in that cabinet, and has a 300W amp. A SEOS design will be bigger and need less power. But someone driving an SEOS with a 50W amp may still have lower absolute limits down low. Both approaches work, and space allowed I philosophically prefer the bigger cone/bigger cabinet/less power approach. But when one doesn't have the space, then the smaller piston/smaller cab/more power approach works pretty well, too. Especially if in the modal region one has a bunch of subs and thus efficiency through multiples.

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post #5602 of 11446 Old 11-18-2012, 07:25 PM
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bwaslo,

I believe i remember reading a thread or two(possibly in a different forum) in which you either owned or had listened to some Danley sound labs offerings(sh50?), could you compare the sound of the seos designs you have listened to with the danely's please? Price not being a consideration what would your preference be between the two?

Thanks again,
Shane
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post #5603 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 08:53 AM
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HFGuy,

Where is this SH50 possible kit thread you speak of?eek.gif

Thanks
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post #5604 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 09:32 AM
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I got permission from Erich to give a little teaser on another small bookshelf kit I have been working on. More details here: "Little Mayhem"

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post #5605 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I got permission from Erich to give a little teaser on another small bookshelf kit I have been working on. More details here: "Little Mayhem"

I'm really glad those turned out so good. Even better than I was hoping. The boxes were cut last week using 1/2" Baltic with a vertical and horizontal 'E-brace' system. biggrin.gif The baffles will be 3/4" mdf. I debated 3/4" Baltic, but knowing these will likely be painted, and that the cut out around the woofer needed to be extra smooth, I decided mdf was the best way to go because of how smooth it machines. I can get Baltic later if some people wanted it.


Guys, I thought it would be nice to get some smaller speakers that could be used as surrounds for the larger SEOS models. I went hunting for the nicest smallest EOS shape I could find and came up with something like the the XT-120 that Zilch and everyone seemed to like about 2 years ago. These also use a really nice mid sized compression driver that I worked with about 6 months ago.

MTG and I discussed woofers that would best pair with this set up, and we both agreed the B&C 8" would fit the bill and look great with these smaller EOS waveguides. So I gathered all the parts and off they went for MTG to work his magic.




The crossover layout should also fit on a board for another speaker that Mr. Tuxedocivic has polished up.
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post #5606 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 09:58 AM
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Looks great mtg90! Long live slot ports! wink.gif
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post #5607 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 10:06 AM
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TOO MANY OPTIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gah cant decide what i want to build
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post #5608 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 10:07 AM
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Those look freakin' awesome. You need something in the picture for scale, cause they look big. But knowing it's an 8", it's gotta be pretty small. Smaller than the MTG-08?
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post #5609 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 10:08 AM
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TOO MANY OPTIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gah cant decide what i want to build

Haha, no kidding eh. There are even more coming. It's almost a design a week. Don't like what you see this week. Wait 'till Monday. This one though is in a new size/performance class that's been needing something for a while. Should be extremely popular.
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post #5610 of 11446 Old 11-19-2012, 10:13 AM
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yea i plan on waiting but I’m also really impatient, I’ve pretty much decided I’m building some sort or SEOS speaker early next year, I just don’t know what yet. i may however just break down and order 2 of the flatpacks that I can get now. Or I could figure out what I’m doing with subs and build those first
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