Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 223 - AVS Forum
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post #6661 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 12:12 PM
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Gorilla83,

I ordered 2 Minion kits with flatpacks and it added $22 for shipping the flatpacks. For the quality and ease of assembling the flat packs, the extra $22 for shipping was worth it to me.
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post #6662 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Erich - Am I reading this right? A baltic birch flatpack for the Alpha 8/Minion is only 25.00 shipped? Definitely not worth building my own for that price!

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/eos-8-flat-pack.html

Chop - This is all you, and probably soon to be me too. biggrin.gif

Wow that is awesome! Would love a nice BB cabinet and am thinking of the smaller kits for surrounds ...
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I wish BB boxes were also made for the bigger SEOS 12 kits. Just love working with BB.

Agreed!
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post #6663 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon84790 View Post

Gorilla83,

I ordered 2 Minion kits with flatpacks and it added $22 for shipping the flatpacks. For the quality and ease of assembling the flat packs, the extra $22 for shipping was worth it to me.

Ah, good to know. Even with a scant 11.00 shipping per pack, still a very high value IMO. If (when) I decide to build the surrounds, I'll go this route.
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post #6664 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GWZ View Post
Build threads - is there a central location? I'd like to see what others have done and would like to add my own build. I found "MrSmithers" - thanks mrsmithers! Based on his photos and description I'm going with duratex.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334432/master-index-of-diy-speaker-projects/0_100

 

I usually update the list when I see a new build posted here on the DIY Speaker forum.

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post #6665 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 02:38 PM
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I only figure the free shipping on the kits. It was too hard to estimate free shipping with the differences on heavier flat packs.

Normally shipping on those smaller Baltic cabinets would be around $15-$17 or so. But I think forum member Ronjon84790 lives out in the boonies or something. biggrin.gif

As mentioned, I didn't have the price on those cabinets, but listed them anyway. I don't really know the exact cost until I get the invoice. But it's close to the estimate. Can't recall if I figured in the Paypal fees on those yet. I'm just trying to get things listed and package things up right now.



I asked about Baltic birch cabinets earlier in the thread, most people said mdf was what they wanted. Plus it does keep the price down. Makes assembly easier too because mdf is a consistent thickness. Baltic birch varies a little per pallet of wood, so it makes it a little harder to do rabbet joints and dados. Plus these cabinets don't have miter joints, only rabbet joints, so you'd still be able to see the seams along the edges. And of course roundovers wouldn't be as smooth.
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post #6666 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 04:54 PM
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Does anyone know why zilch rear/internally mounted his woofers?

Would that be a smart idea?
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post #6667 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 05:02 PM
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It would not be a smart idea unless the design calls for it.

It was likely done to back up the woofer output closer to the tweeter output (geometrically). It's called aligning the acoustic centers. I personally don't bother because it adds a lot of construction complexity. If someone really wanted to do it, a discussion with the designer would be in order. It may be doable on some designs.
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post #6668 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 05:03 PM
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To get the acoustical centers close I think(but more knowledgeable members will respond). Each designer will tell you where they mounted the woofer when they designed their crossover and whats acceptable.
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post #6669 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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"Does anyone know why zilch rear/internally mounted his woofers?
Would that be a smart idea?"

by moving the woofer forward and back, the time alignment between the woofer and the horn will change.

that has the effect of "steering" the forward lobe up and down.

woofers naturally have a little bit of a delay relative to cd's, so having the woofer a little bit forward of the cd tends to work fine. if you are using a deep horn that sets the cd back quite a bit, rear mounting the woofer is one way to help keep the forward lobe from getting too far off of center.

here is a picture to help illustrate:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32426-I-measured-the-time-alignment-of-JBL-2123-and-2420-2344&p=327711&viewfull=1#post327711

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post #6670 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Does anyone know why zilch rear/internally mounted his woofers?

Would that be a smart idea?
Yes, it decreases the center to center distance and would be a good idea when designing your own speaker. I wouldn't do it if you're using someone else's design as it may require crossover modifications.

Mike
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post #6671 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 05:12 PM
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Rear mounting the woofers was a way to better align the acoustic centers of the woofers and the relatively deep QSC waveguides. Not as much of an issue with the shallower JBL/Pyle/Dayton waveguides used for most of the econowave stuff though some were built that way in the "Flex your PCD Mettle" thread over at PE TechTalk.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?215536-Flex-Your-PCD-Mettle/page2

edit - what they said while I was hunting for the link
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post #6672 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

What do you guys think of my idea for a grill for the Tempest kit.

For the woofer I'll use this 12" grill covered in grill cloth to match my subs.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=262-864






For the horn, I plan to "wrap" the waveguide in the same cloth. Sort of like a sock. It should be held in place when I screw the waveguide into the baffle. I'll also use speaker gasket to make a nice tight seal. Will there be any problems using the steel grill on the woofer? The grill is 12.125 outside diameter and the woofer is 12.38... I don't know if that is going to be a problem.

A question about the crossover for the kits. How do we know if we have built the crossover correctly? Is a layout going to be provided because I had trouble building Lilmike's mic but I eventually got it tongue.gif I could measure it with an Audyssey mic or my Radioshack meter but those are not very accurate.

Curious if you are still happy with this grill setup? How does one secure the PE grill, perhaps route s narrow circular slot - for a friction fit?

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post #6673 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 07:00 PM
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I have some bad news guys.

Last night I posted the Zilch kit because someone asked about it. I made the price of the kit much less than you could buy the original parts for. Like nearly $100 less. As mentioned on that page, I also added $20 to the kit price that would be donated to the Lung Cancer Association in Zilch's name. I was also going to personally match that to make it $40 per speaker that could be donated to the Lung Cancer Association. No donations in my name, not for advertising purposes, not to use his name for anything else. Simply put one of his designs up for no profit, then hope to donate $40 to a charity that made sense. As stated, I was going to post the receipt after the donation.

To me, this was one of the nicer things I could think up with for our friend Zilch, and I truly believe he would've been happy to see it done. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be pleased to see that. I really can't.

But I just received an email telling me that I had to remove his name from the site, and that:

"Using Zilch's name in advertising on your website is disingenuous at best and insulting to the vision of the man at worst."

Everyone here knows that I liked Zilch and wasn't using his name for "advertising" because his speaker doesn't even use the SEOS.......because the SEOS wasn't even out yet. confused.gif

We all liked Zilch and should thank him for getting us "re-energized" on all waveguides in general. He experimented with many of them, and was looking forward to the SEOS design that AudioJosh, Coctostan, LTD02, jzagaja, LBDiver, and many others in this community helped with. I wanted to show thanks by setting this kit up to donate in his name to the charity I thought made sense. I honestly don't understand why anyone would say that was bad, but it is what it is.
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post #6674 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 07:08 PM
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post #6675 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 07:12 PM
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I feel your frustration Erich. In my eyes at least you have been nothing if not an upstanding straightforward person trying to assist and better the DIY community as a whole by making these excellent but inexpensive kits available to the people. It's too bad that even by offering a donation in Zilch's name to help others was not enough to pacify these people.

Keep up the incredibly awesome work and thanks for all you do!!
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post #6676 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I have some bad news guys.

Last night I posted the Zilch kit because someone asked about it. I made the price of the kit much less than you could buy the original parts for. Like nearly $100 less. As mentioned on that page, I also added $20 to the kit price that would be donated to the Lung Cancer Association in Zilch's name. I was also going to personally match that to make it $40 per speaker that could be donated to the Lung Cancer Association. No donations in my name, not for advertising purposes, not to use his name for anything else. Simply put one of his designs up for no profit, then hope to donate $40 to a charity that made sense. As stated, I was going to post the receipt after the donation.

To me, this was one of the nicer things I could think up with for our friend Zilch, and I truly believe he would've been happy to see it done. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be pleased to see that. I really can't.

But I just received an email telling me that I had to remove his name from the site, and that:

"Using Zilch's name in advertising on your website is disingenuous at best and insulting to the vision of the man at worst."

Everyone here knows that I liked Zilch and wasn't using his name for "advertising" because his speaker doesn't even use the SEOS.......because the SEOS wasn't even out yet. confused.gif

We all liked Zilch and should thank him for getting us "re-energized" on all waveguides in general. He experimented with many of them, and was looking forward to the SEOS design that AudioJosh, Coctostan, LTD02, jzagaja, LBDiver, and many others in this community helped with. I wanted to show thanks by setting this kit up to donate in his name to the charity I thought made sense. I honestly don't understand why anyone would say that was bad, but it is what it is.




Then call it whatever!

All the more reasons to really turn this into a business. After all, a lot of folks outside of AVS already looked at DSG as a 'for-profit' business, and many already felt threatened.

Keep making donations to whatever charities in honor of Mr. Z, while making money.
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post #6677 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 08:04 PM
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Erich,

Sorry to heat about this latest cheap-shot across the bow !!

Please don't get discouraged - your intentions are and continue to be sincere and in the right place !!!!

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post #6678 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 08:10 PM
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I wouldn't change the name of the speaker, because it was Zilch's. The idea was to do something nice, nothing more.

Don't worry, I'm certainly not discouraged at all. If anything, quite the opposite.
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post #6679 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Then call it whatever!

All the more reasons to really turn this into a business. After all, a lot of folks outside of AVS already looked at DSG as a 'for-profit' business, and many already felt threatened.

Keep making donations to whatever charities in honor of Mr. Z, while making money.

Think that kind of sums it up nicely.
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post #6680 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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In my estimation, part of the friction in this thread is arising simply because there are two vastly different perspectives at work here and both have some good points.

There are some guys, I’ll call them the “old guard” for lack of a better term, who knew Zilch for many years. Zilch only joined AVS relatively recently, so most of those interactions were on boards such as lansingheritage, audiokarma, and others, and many folks around here did not know him.

Zilch was an experimentalist and JBL fan who designed a large number speakers, helped others with their designs, and provided countless measurements and insights. He was part of a group of folks who believed that high-sensitivity speakers, done correctly, don’t have to sound like the crappy p.a. stuff that many folks shun.

Some members of the old guard, such as Wayne Parham and Dr. Geddes in the DIY community and several JBL/Harman researchers in the commercial world, had designs that demonstrated that high sensitivity, controlled-directivity speakers had something going for them that other speakers just didn’t have. The only downside was that they were still relatively expensive even as kits.

In his inexhaustible experimentation and measurement mode, Zilch discovered that a little piece of plastic produced as a replacement item for some JBL speakers could help produce some nice sounds. Some would call it a waveguide. Other would call it a horn. Some would say it is compromised. Zilch said it performed wonderfully and cost $9 (yes, nine bucks) from JBL pro parts. But what to do with it?

After much searching around, it was discovered that a low-cost compression driver from Selenium mated to the waveguide performed well for a high-sensitivity, controlled-directivity, top-end and the Econowave Project saga began.

Since a low cost “top end” was now available, the challenge was to find a low cost, but similarly well performing, woofer and enclosure to match. Because of the relatively high cost of good high sensitivity woofers (the JBL 2226H was $333 at the time), Zilch suggested just recycling whatever woofer and enclosure one could find second hand and fixing the Econowave to it via a flexible crossover that could match the sensitivity of the top end to the low end.

The concept was a huge hit. For the first time, folks with limited financial resources were able to cobble together systems that would otherwise cost several thousand dollars. One needs only look to the 15,000+ posts in the Econowave thread at audiokarma or any of the various related threads on all the other audio boards in order to see what Z helped to unleash with the project that he would be too humble to say he was leading.

One evolution of Econowave included the use of a low-cost horn from QSC pro parts. That horn was low cost, provided good performance, and was a reasonable alternative to the JBL. And given that parts always seemed to be being “discontinued”, it is nice to have backup plans. Well, the QSC horn was “discontinued” at least for DIY purposes and that is where this thread began.

The original idea for this thread was simply to “rally” folks to keep the QSC horn available, but somehow through the contributions of many folks and the obvious demand as evidenced by the Econowave Project, a new waveguide was developed—the SEOS. This is where the “new guard” comes into the picture.

Most of the new guard know that Erich has done most of the coordinating and all of the financing of the development of the SEOS waveguide. He has made it available at a very competitive price. More than this, he has helped to coordinate and finance the development of many flat pack kits. He has worked with various designers, suppliers, machine shops, shipping companies, etc. in order to bring to market a family of high-sensitivity, controlled-directivity, speakers. Most would admit that he is doing a great job.

The new guard sees this as a universally positive development that has benefited and will continue to benefit DIY folks. The new guard sees designs and kits that were not available before and at prices that are hard to fathom. To the new guard, Erich is a hero...no, Erich is a super-hero. Yet there is another perspective.

This perspective asks where did all the interest in high-sensitivity, controlled-directivity speakers come from? Is there any technical aspect of the SEOS design that is attributable to Erich? Why does it seem like Erich is getting all the credit for bringing something to market that is built on the research and contributions of countless other folks over many years on other audio boards? To some of the old guard, the answers to these questions stand in stark contrast to the popularity of Erich on AVS. And, even though DIYSoundGroup is not a business at this point, all the traffic, talk, and goodwill that comes from the SEOS project does have real potential business value.

So in the latest tension between these two perspectives, Erich on one hand wishing to help attribute some of the origin of the SEOS project to Zilch named a model in his honor and offered to make a donation in the direction that he believes Z would have wished. On the other hand, based on the tone of the email snippet that was put up, the old guard took this as just another co-opt of Z and all the Econowave devotees to try to benefit from our late friend’s name.

So, while there isn’t a clear way to resolve all of this and bring everybody together, my hope is that a little more appreciation for each group of the other’s perspective might help make things go a little more smoothly as we all continue onward.
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post #6681 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 11:20 PM
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Hes dumped thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars bringing an idea to fruition. I've seen him mention that like once or twice. Only reason most people see the SEOS is his because hes the only reason it actually came to fruition, otherwise we would be wandering around with our heads up our butt trying to actually buy stuff from auto-tech which is definitely not an easy task (and it would cost like TEN TIMES as much). He did all the CNC contracting work, he bought a lot of CDs that are cheaper than B&C stuff, he gave resources to DIY folks and then on top of that is paying them from the sale of every speaker, he packages all the crap (which for anyone who has sold random stuff on ebay knows takes far too much time and is super aggravating in itself).

You completely forgot to mention the other perspective is basically held by other people who have business interests and see erich as a huge threat.
Hes dumping so much time and money into something and getting results that blow everything else out of the water. They wouldnt feel threatened if he wasnt doing something that is a complete game changer, now would they?

BTW If im not mistaken i dont think he was just sticking zilch's name on it, but im pretty sure zilch actually had a hand in designing Zilch's kit. So im not sure where you get the idea that its strictly a tribute model.

Really erich is similar to zilch insofar as he is putting a lot of time into a project to bring "econowaves" to the masses. While hes not a crossover designer he knows his stuff well enough to offer complete packages. You think if zilch had a lot of time and money he wouldnt have looked into getting CnCed flat packs and making molds of better waveguides and then would store and ship all the stuff for people?

Its simple, i would have never built econowaves, they were simply inaccessible to me (and due to the qsc waveguide issues quickly became inaccessible even to those with cabinet building skills), but erich's flat pack kits and his part supplies just made economical wave guide speakers available to the masses. The truth is that far far more people will get to enjoy waveguide speakers thanks to erich. Theres no arguing that.
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post #6682 of 11387 Old 01-21-2013, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post


So in the latest tension between these two perspectives, Erich on one hand wishing to help attribute some of the origin of the SEOS project to Zilch named a model in his honor and offered to make a donation in the direction that he believes Z would have wished. On the other hand, based on the tone of the email snippet that was put up, the old guard took this as just another co-opt of Z and all the Econowave devotees to try to benefit from our late friend’s name.

I agree with most of what you said.

But I didn't actually name any new model after Zilch. It was his design that has been sitting out there for years that used an 18-Sounds waveguide. If you go to the kit's page, you'll see the price break down. There's no money made, and even free stuff added. Would Zilch, the guy that was all about 'economy' get mad that his kit was not only available for $100 less, but also donations going to the Lung Cancer Association? Who would get mad about all of this?



This is all very, very simple. There was NO problem at all until the good kits popped up. Was there? Can you recall any issues in 2 years? Did we hear anything "bad" from anyone at all until......'whoa....they actually made some really nice speakers! This could be bad!' I asked EVERYONE to be part of what the community was doing here. Is it strange that the ones that are mad are the ones that decided not to participate?

It doesn't take much to figure out what's going on. It's a very classic way to undermine a project from the inside out. Post bogus comments with no merit, make things seem like something they're not, hope people get mad at each other, then sit back and wait. Who wants to fall for that? I gave that up in high school. biggrin.gif

This is a long thread, but the time line is there. Not one single problem.............until the good kits popped up. Coincidence?
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post #6683 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 01:04 AM
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Is there an in-wall or on-wall crossover design anywhere for the Alpha-8 Minion kit?

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #6684 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post


Curious if you are still happy with this grill setup? How does one secure the PE grill, perhaps route s narrow circular slot - for a friction fit?


I'm fairly happy on how they came out. The vinyl ring is not very pretty, has some blemishes if  you look up close. One of my biggest problems was the clamps that I used http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=262-360. These clamps are for woofers that are mounted on top of the baffle, NOT flush mounted. Because my subs are flush mounted (kind of) the clamps have a small gap so they don't grip the grill. I cut up pieces of a USB cable to fill the gap and that has worked so far. I was thinking of using these angled clamps http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=262-362 for my subs and the SEOS kits. I need to look through HomeDepot to see if they have any flat brackets or maybe a washer...

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post #6685 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 02:39 AM
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Coincidence?

In my opinion... NO!
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post #6686 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 03:54 AM
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I think Paul W Klipsch would have something to say to those who are sour about the SEOS speakers. Seems to me the Econowave took quite a lot of inspiration from a Klipsch Heresy.

People's work inspires the work of others. That doesn't mean they owe you something so get over it. I think Erich has gone way out of his way to show appreciation to those who inspired the seos speakers. Too far obviously.

Also in business, if you sit on your laurels, someone is going to come along making it better and cheaper than you. Evolve or die. That's the way it is.

You don't like what's going on here? Do it better or suck it up.

That's what I think.

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post #6687 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 03:58 AM
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I guess its only a matter of time before the ID sub manufacturers post some stuff on my build thread saying how much I owe to them...

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post #6688 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 04:00 AM
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I remember posting pics of my Crites CS-1T's, basically a two way Heresy clone, and someone called it an Econowave clone. lol WTH?

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post #6689 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 04:42 AM
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The Heresy wasnt constant directivity...

But if credit is to be given, probably it all goes back to Don Keele - who isnt even using horns anymore! I see the SEOS designs as more derived from Geddes' stuff than from Ewave. though Ewave certainly got diy interest in waveguides churning.

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post #6690 of 11387 Old 01-22-2013, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

The Heresy wasnt constant directivity...

But if credit is to be given, probably it all goes back to Don Keele - who isnt even using horns anymore! I see the SEOS designs as more derived from Geddes' stuff than from Ewave. though Ewave certainly got diy interest in waveguides churning.

I get that. Still horns though, and without horns there is no constant directivity.

My point is, when does the "you owe your idea to __ game" stop?

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