Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I hope those mock ups that were posted towards the end here won't confuse the project. I had a bad feeling about that when they were posted. People would vote on looks versus sound quality, which is what may have happened. And then it turned out not to be a feasible design and things went a different direction. I hope the project doesn't get changed too much just so it looks like a mock up.

We're after sound quality first. At least I hope so.
FWIW, I never really looked at the scales the mock ups gave us. I only
looked at the number so there was no confusion to me.

Meaning

SEOS-15 9060 N=3 (rH=12cm, rV=4.5) Elliptical flange - Circular throat - Throat angle to match the 15* driver exit angle of the DE250


is still the choice.

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post #722 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post
I vote for a flange that takes the shape of the SEOS and simply extends past far enough for mounting. I don't think we need it to be rectangular. I'm not sure I've seen anyone vote for it that way. For those that want to make a visually appealing speaker, I'd think this would be the only route.
I voted for rectangle. I still think its the better choice. Im not interested in trying to route elliptical shapes to flush mount a waveguide

I voted that the flange be rectange but only protude out the corners there would be essentially no flange on the sides and top at the outer distances of the waveguide.

If we are flush mounting and filling it all in then it should not matter what shape the flange is since it disappears into the baffle. Routing retangles accurately is easy compared to ellpitical shapes.

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post #723 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post
I voted for rectangle. I still think its the better choice. Im not interested in trying to route elliptical shapes to flush mount a waveguide

I voted that the flange be rectange but only protude out the corners there would be essentially no flange on the sides and top at the outer distances of the waveguide.

If we are flush mounting and filling it all in then it should not matter what shape the flange is since it disappears into the baffle. Routing retangles accurately is easy compared to ellpitical shapes.
That is true if you don't want to make a template. I'm fine either way. Mine will be behind a screen wall.
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post #724 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 06:13 AM
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Templates are just as difficult to make for those shapes. I just do not see how the different shapes will look different if we are blending them into the baffle anyways. I would just choose the more workable solution.

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post #725 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 07:01 AM
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SEOS-15 9060 N=3 (rH=12cm, rV=4.5) Elliptical flange - Circular throat - Throat angle to match the 15* driver exit angle of the DE250

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post #726 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 07:03 AM
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The elliptical shape won't be too hard to recess if you are careful with a jig saw. I'd first make a template out of hard board with a jig saw by tracing the waveguide and cutting out the hardboard. Then use this template to make your baffle.

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post #727 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 07:49 AM
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I fully understand it, its the "Being careful" part that gets most people on curves, I will just say its making something hard for no reason at all and its creating a flat surface and too many holes that is not needed on the sides. My solution creates a better round over on the left, top and right sides. Why people want the flange to follow the waveguide shape is beyond my logic, it sounds like its only a looks thing which is silly to me.

Notice how close the edges are to the XT1086 horn?? That creates a nice transition on the top and sides if the baffle is size right with the horn.


Anyways, I will just slice mine off and do it the way I want if that comes down to it.

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post #728 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 09:27 AM
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Here's what I've got so far:


SEOS-15 9060 N=3
(rH=12cm, rV=4.5)
Circular throat
Throat angle to match the 15* driver exit angle of the DE250

Flush baffle mount like the XT1086 with the flange edges to be similar for easy mounting.
----------------------------------

I'm sending them a photo of the XT1086.


Okay that's what I have so far. Maybe later we can do the nicer looking elliptical mounting flange. I'll mention it in the e-mail. That might be an easy change. Actually, they might just prefer to do the elliptical flange for mounting. I'll find out.

What about screw holes? 6? Or none at all? We could drill our own if needed, but countersinking may be harder. Then again, I'm not sure they will make countersunk holes on the model anyway.

I think that's the last piece of the puzzle, then off it goes.
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post #729 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 11:38 AM
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We cannot make holes for screws or in other words this will look so so without top coat. Better secure inside the cabinet and fill the gap with acrylic filler.
LL
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post #730 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

We cannot make holes for screws or in other words this will look so so without top coat. Better secure inside the cabinet and fill the gap with acrylic filler.

I sent the info mentioning that the screw holes could be skipped for now if they don't do that. If they can't, I doubt it will be much of a problem because we could drill our own if needed. It might allow for more mounting options without screws.

Then again, if we skip screw holes, should we just do the 1/2" elliptical flange for more screw hole placement options? Or would a screw on each corner of the rectangular baffle be enough for a 15" waveguide?
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post #731 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

We cannot make holes for screws or in other words this will look so so without top coat. Better secure inside the cabinet and fill the gap with acrylic filler.

Are people willing to glue these in permanently? Because if not I think we need a lip all the way around for people who want to use screws. Also recognize that a template will still need to made for the more rectangular version because the corner radius is 30mm, this would require a 2 3/8" dia rebate bit if using a simple rectangular box template to each the proper corner radius.

The 18Sound XT1086 is only 10" wide and is cast aluminum and therefore can pull off 4 corner screws. Unless ours are going to be aluminum or 1/2" thick resin with a compression radius integrated into the back of the flange at the mid point I don't think we can pull it off. I would think a minimum of 6 screws is needed with 2 being centerline top and bottom. 18Sound uses 8 screws on their 14" horn for both the poly and aluminum versions. The screws not only provide seal but help to keep the horn surface from deflecting unless the construction is heavy enough to prevent this.




A quick overlay I drew up before Jzagaja posted. Top is 3/8" flange lip all the way around. Bottom is a rounded corner rectangle, however I used a much larger corner radius than the 30mm Jzagaja did in his model.
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post #732 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 12:25 PM
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I agree LBDiver, I think a lip/flange is needed so we don't have to glue them in place if we don't want to. I think it should be 1/2" all around.

Your second drawing only works if 4 screws will hold these in place. It's going to have to be either #1 or #3.
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post #733 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

We cannot make holes for screws or in other words this will look so so without top coat. Better secure inside the cabinet and fill the gap with acrylic filler.

That SEOS picture is exactly what I was thinking. Thanks!!

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post #734 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Are people willing to glue these in permanently? Because if not I think we need a lip all the way around for people who want to use screws. Also recognize that a template will still need to made for the more rectangular version because the corner radius is 30mm, this would require a 2 3/8" dia rebate bit if using a simple rectangular box template to each the proper corner radius.

The 18Sound XT1086 is only 10" wide and is cast aluminum and therefore can pull off 4 corner screws. Unless ours are going to be aluminum or 1/2" thick resin with a compression radius integrated into the back of the flange at the mid point I don't think we can pull it off. I would think a minimum of 6 screws is needed with 2 being centerline top and bottom. 18Sound uses 8 screws on their 14" horn for both the poly and aluminum versions. The screws not only provide seal but help to keep the horn surface from deflecting unless the construction is heavy enough to prevent this.

Im not sure I follow, what weight needs to be held at all? The QSC 152i is 14"x10" and I can secure it easily with 4 screws in each corner. I have done my tests like that with the BMS 4550 drivers. I can not see how more screws are needed. Im assuming the SEOS waveguide will not be any heavier but I could be wrong.

My waveguides fit really snug into my recess cuts on my baffles so I never needed more then 4 screws. I add more just because there are too many holes to fill.

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post #735 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I sent the info mentioning that the screw holes could be skipped for now if they don't do that. If they can't, I doubt it will be much of a problem because we could drill our own if needed. It might allow for more mounting options without screws.

Then again, if we skip screw holes, should we just do the 1/2" elliptical flange for more screw hole placement options? Or would a screw on each corner of the rectangular baffle be enough for a 15" waveguide?

I like what jzagaja posted. I do like the option not to have screw holes too. Its funny but that picture looks like a modified QSC HPR-152i!! That was our original intent....kind of funny how things go full circle.



Im not convinced this waveguide needs more then 4 screws. The weight is all in the CD anyways and the XT1086 handles it, the QSC HPR-152i handles it (in my tests).

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post #736 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 01:31 PM
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Obviously I'm all for the photo jzagaja posted. Looks great. Any of those last couple designs would have worked for me.

All specs have been sent. I was told this should be completed in the first part of next month.


As for mounting, you could always use epoxy to attach some male inserts on the back of the WG. Then just drill female inserts into the baffle. Heck, even those cheesy drywall tubular anchors could work because they're flat on both sides:

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post #737 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I agree LBDiver, I think a lip/flange is needed so we don't have to glue them in place if we don't want to. I think it should be 1/2" all around.

Same here, the photo Jzagaja posted does not have this, nor does the bottom (blue) I mocked-up. I think the majority vote was elliptical flange, but if you want to go rectangular maybe have them add 3/8-1/2" around the edges so people who want to use screws don't have to screw through the roundover portions. Without pre-drilled screw countersinks, extra flange can always be easily trimmed down, but adding back is not so easy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Your second drawing only works if 4 screws will hold these in place. It's going to have to be either #1 or #3.

Second drawing is just the top and bottom designs overlayed to show the difference in size/shape. Top is the elliptical flange people voted for. The bottom one was a XT1086 style, same as Jzagaja's with little/no lip beyond the edges and would be a 4 screw option, unless you are willing to screw through the round-over portions.
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post #738 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Same here, the photo Jzagaja posted does not have this, nor does the bottom (blue) I mocked-up. I think the majority vote was elliptical flange, but if you want to go rectangular maybe have them add 3/8-1/2" around the edges so people who want to use screws don't have to screw through the roundover portions. Without pre-drilled screw countersinks, extra flange can always be easily trimmed down, but adding back is not so easy.


Second drawing is just the top and bottom designs overlayed to show the difference in size/shape. Top is the elliptical flange people voted for. The bottom one was a XT1086 style, same as Jzagaja's with little/no lip beyond the edges and would be a 4 screw option, unless you are willing to screw through the round-over portions.

you have to tell me why 4 screws in only the corners wouldnt work.

Jzagaja's picture has these benefits over having a flange completely around the waveguide.

1. We can round over right out to the waveguide itself on the sides and top.

2. Creating the recessed baffle hole is easier.

Most do not care because they are putting them behind screens so why do you want the EOS shaped flange so bad? Im just thinking the less flange the better, period.

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post #739 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

you have to tell me why 4 screws in only the corners wouldnt work.

I made a speaker using the Pyle waveguide, lots of screws but the guide is made with relatively thin plastic. During an incompetently done test (...yeah, it was me...) the speaker fell over and dropped about a foot from where it was sitting. All the screws broke out and trashed the waveguide and bonked the CD around. The CD survived, but I had to replace the waveguide. So maybe the 18Sound waveguide gets away with it because it is made of metal and not plastic? Though the extra screws still weren't enough to avoid the Pyle guide flying off...

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post #740 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Same here, the photo Jzagaja posted does not have this, nor does the bottom (blue) I mocked-up. I think the majority vote was elliptical flange, but if you want to go rectangular maybe have them add 3/8-1/2" around the edges so people who want to use screws don't have to screw through the roundover portions. Without pre-drilled screw countersinks, extra flange can always be easily trimmed down, but adding back is not so easy.

I think the photo jzagaja posted should work okay unless others have some major issues with it. I think it flows very nicely. And these should be pretty solid pieces without much flex.

It looks as if there might be enough room to add a screw towards the middle area if you wanted to. Don't you think one could fit there if it was really needed? Seems like it would.


Heck, even two small dabs of silicone in the middle areas could be used in combination with the 4 corner screws. No way it would move then, and could still be removed fairly easy. What do you think about that idea?



Personally, after looking at the photo more, I think it has a nice smooth look. If others are worried, please let me know.
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post #741 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

I made a speaker using the Pyle waveguide, lots of screws but the guide is made with relatively thin plastic. During an incompetently done test (...yeah, it was me...) the speaker fell over and dropped about a foot from where it was sitting. All the screws broke out and trashed the waveguide and bonked the CD around. The CD survived, but I had to replace the waveguide. So maybe the 18Sound waveguide gets away with it because it is made of metal and not plastic? Though the extra screws still weren't enough to avoid the Pyle guide flying off...

Ouch, yeah that sucks.

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post #742 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 04:05 PM
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After seeing that pic from jzagaja, I think it looks great with the rectangular flange. I'll probably build a few sets that won't reside behind a screen wall so I guess the appearance will matter to me somewhat.

Concerning the mounting screw points required, I'm not a mechanical engineer or a materials guy so I couldn't say what will be needed. I do know that it will depend mainly on Erich's chosen construction. I personally don't care how many screw holes are present...although I don't want them to crack after a year or two.

Let's do this! Erich, unless the price is unreasonable, you can count me in for a bunch.
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post #743 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 04:18 PM
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Yes, the Jzagaja looks nice and flowing, but that has alot to do with it being rendered done in the same 3D space as the horn, not some quick photoshop add on.

I don't believe 4 screws will work because this SEOS will span 13.5" between screw centers in the horizontal plane vs. only 8.4" on the XT1086, and it is not made from cast aluminum with engineered stiffening ribs, rather glass reinforced resin or whatever it is??. You would be relying on those 4 screws to hold the weight of the horn, CD, ensure proper stiffness, fastening, without any flexure or vibration, while maintaining a full seal against the air pressure from a pumping 15" Pro woofer. In a same or smaller size QSC uses 10 and 18Sound 8 screws, once again with resilient plastic or aluminum WG's which have stiffening ribs.

As I stated previously my intent is to use it on a hardwood baffle or possibly a curved top cabinet, or even free air. But as I stated this morning, I don't mind if it switches to rectangular, as it can be trimmed down to oval, and either will still require a template for accurate routing.

However I and others can't add back material that is not there if they plan to use 8-10 screws straight through the flange, or want an elliptical flange, if there no longer is a flange there. Since we're going without screw holes it seems logical to go with the universal solution which would be rounded rectangle with 1/2" flange all the way around. Then if people want to get fancy with adhesive, back mounts, elliptical, etc, it's their deal.
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post #744 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

1. I think the photo jzagaja posted should work okay unless others have some major issues with it.

2. And these should be pretty solid pieces without much flex.

1. As was pointed out (I think), with those large corner radii a template with matching contour still needs to be made.

If the radius was reduced to 1/2", an easier to make template (4 straight cuts) could be used with a 1" dia. router bit.

2. This is the crux of it - how solid? How thick will the flange be?

If not already, any reason it can't be made at least 3/8" thick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Since we're going without screw holes it seems logical to go with the universal solution which would be rounded rectangle with 1/2" flange all the way around. Then if people want to get fancy with adhesive, back mounts, elliptical, etc, it's their deal.

Didn't see this until after I posted; I agree 100%.

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post #745 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 04:47 PM
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Maybe we can get jzagaja to manipulate his 3D rendering and see how it looks. I've honestly got no problem either way because I have no fear of using silicone where it's needed. But then again, I can also understand why some would want the 1/2" flange. There could be enough room in the rendering, I'll find out.

This was the issue I was most concerned with last week.....mounting.


Noah, I think a forstner bit could be used for the corners and those can be bought fairly large.

This is a tough call because right now we're at the point of performing great and it also has great looks. It's just going to be a little more time consuming to do the baffle.

I'm mainly for performance of course, that's top priority. But what DIY guy wouldn't spend a little extra time for the looks? Tough call here on the rounded corners.

The flange/screw issue could eventually have to deal with performance. We'll have to ask jzagaja if there's enough room in his rendering to get a few screws along the mid section. If there is, then we don't need the extra 1/2" flange right? Let's no go crazy until we find out.
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post #746 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Yes, the Jzagaja looks nice and flowing, but that has alot to do with it being rendered done in the same 3D space as the horn, not some quick photoshop add on.

I don't believe 4 screws will work because this SEOS will span 13.5" between screw centers in the horizontal plane vs. only 8.4" on the XT1086, and it is not made from cast aluminum with engineered stiffening ribs, rather glass reinforced resin or whatever it is??. You would be relying on those 4 screws to hold the weight of the horn, CD, ensure proper stiffness, fastening, without any flexure or vibration, while maintaining a full seal against the air pressure from a pumping 15" Pro woofer. In a same or smaller size QSC uses 10 and 18Sound 8 screws, once again with resilient plastic or aluminum WG's which have stiffening ribs.


Sorry but the QSC HPR-152i is 14" x 10" and 4 screws, double sided sticky thick gorilla tape, creates a great seal and they do not move with BMS4550.

This product will consist of material similar to the QSC waveguide. You are not holding the weight either if have bracing on the inside where the CD just sits on top.

You also should realize that the horn and woofer should not share the same space so there is no pressure involved.

This is one of those times were the discussion has to move on. Im not interested in having 1/2" MORE flange then needed because someone likes the look (I think it looks too PA, no style (18sound gets it, Pyle, the rest do not). If we can save 1" then we should save an 1" with respect to continous waveguide to round over transition.

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post #747 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Sorry but the QSC HPR-152i is 14" x 10" and 4 screws, double sided sticky thick gorilla tape, creates a great seal and they do not move with BMS4550.

This product will consist of material similar to the QSC waveguide. You are not holding the weight either if have bracing on the inside where the CD just sits on top.

You also should realize that the horn and woofer should not share the same space so there is no pressure involved.

This is one of those times were the discussion has to move on. Im not interested in having 1/2" MORE flange then needed because someone likes the look (I think it looks too PA, no style (18sound gets it, Pyle, the rest do not). If we can save 1" then we should save an 1" with respect to continous waveguide to round over transition.

Just double checked mine:

QSC 152i 10" x 14" = 10 screws, Material thickness .200" semi-rigid plastic

Eminence H290 6.75" x 10.75" = 6 screws, Material thickness .350" rigid abs

If you say 18Sound gets it, then we're on the same page because for their 90x60 horn they use 8 screws and have a .700" flange all the way around.

18Sound XR1496 90x60 10.6 x 10.6" = 8 screws, Material Thickness .300" aluminum



While running the WG/CD in it own sealed compartment with a brace holding the weight of the CD, that or running the WG separate all together, may be ideal, many do not do this. When running sealed I'd rather have all the usable volume I can get and damp the WG.

I think it's a fair compromise to go with the universal option of rectangular with a 1/2" lip, so it suits the most basic screw-it on user, to someone like myself who will be willing to make a jig and route mine down to elliptical, etc..

Considering this is the prototype for which future ones will be cast, I again say it's better to have the material on there now, then to find out you need it later. Since the construction material, thickness, elasticity is unknown for the prototype, or the planned production units, I don't know how anybody could say what will work or not. Therefore I'm going off what I see on similar commercial products.
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post #748 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Noah, I think a forstner bit could be used for the corners and those can be bought fairly large.

Good idea, thanks.

Do you know how thick the flange would be?

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post #749 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 08:53 PM
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Guys, I'll find out the flange thickness. If by some chance we think it could use the 2 extra screws, it's only on the top and bottom portion. There's already a little room there right now for a screw, so maybe a very small amount could be added to get about 3/8" flat. Like 1/4" extra might do it.

That would keep the width the same, but add 1/2" to the overall height. That might be a good compromise.

I'll get more info later.
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post #750 of 11690 Old 12-21-2010, 09:24 PM
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If the flange thickness is such that more screws are needed, I'd rather see 4 ea, not 3, along the top and bottom so that the height needn't be increased for ones in the center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Guys, I'll find out the flange thickness. If by some chance we think it could use the 2 extra screws, it's only on the top and bottom portion. There's already a little room there right now for a screw, so maybe a very small amount could be added to get about 3/8" flat. Like 1/4" extra might do it.

That would keep the width the same, but add 1/2" to the overall height. That might be a good compromise.

I'll get more info later.


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