Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 28 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 244Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #811 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 07:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
AudioJosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 65
OT but interesting....

http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/haut_...av_1_pouce.htm

Its not CD, but notice the shape and mouth dimensions.

JoshK on most other audio forums
AudioJosh is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #812 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 07:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

An ideal OS design would have no conical section. Since I don't know your manufacturing techniques I'm can't speak to the necessity of your conical section. The entire conical section is counterproductive.

Ideally, where I drew the green arrow, it should be 1" (25.4mm) in diameter. Are you saying you can't meet this target well enough due to shrinkage?

What are the entry and exit diameters for the conical section?

If there is a manufacturing obstacle I think we need to make sure we are doing our best to minimize or eliminate its effect.



At some point we have to transition from the 16.5deg angle to the angle of the SEOS waveguide so there is always going to be a transition point where the angles change and diffraction happens.

Is there any other way of doing this?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #813 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 07:52 AM
Member
 
jzagaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Most exciting CD horn is Smith type JMLC, "Midrange" horn.
LL
jzagaja is offline  
post #814 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 08:07 AM
Member
 
jzagaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is how it should (IMHO) look like at the throat.
LL
jzagaja is offline  
post #815 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 08:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

Coctostan - as far as I know the driver should have no conical duct or cylindrical duct, in other words throat angle zero degrees. So in a best case radius in OS throat should continue in a phase plug. Such a driver does not exist so far. Like I said we do slightly smaller throat and grind because shrinkage cannot be controlled with hand lamination. Part marked with red arrow will be cut.


This pretty much answers the question to the new issue right?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

Erich H is online now  
post #816 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 09:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coctostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Yes, I think Earl was a little off in his 6.5deg value. It should have been 7.3deg because he is only referring to the half angle of the 14.6deg conical opening.

Jzagaja, if there is no way to manufacture a waveguide that starts at the green arrow from my prior drawing I think we have a real issue.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying. Are proposing that the conical section is cut off after manufacturing? If so, that would be fine so long as the throat matches the 1" exit of the drivers.
coctostan is offline  
post #817 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 09:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coctostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

This pretty much answers the question to the new issue right?


I don't think so. I understand that the CD exit is conical and that ideally it would be an OS profile but that is not a possibility right now. Since we have to deal with off the shelf parts we want to transition as smoothly and as soon as possible from the conical CD exit angle to the OS profile. Extending the conical portion of the CD into the WG is not a good thing.
coctostan is offline  
post #818 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 09:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coctostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

At some point we have to transition from the 16.5deg angle to the angle of the SEOS waveguide so there is always going to be a transition point where the angles change and diffraction happens.

Is there any other way of doing this?


The idea behind starting the WG throat and OS profile where the tangent angle equals the exit angle is to minimize the throat diffraction. It is the core concept behind the OS. Transitioning at this point is the smoothest possible transition point from conical to OS.

Make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

This is how it should (IMHO) look like at the throat.

I agree that would make for the ideal CD exit. Basically start the OS profile in the phase plug. Even "more ideal" would be to make it ellipitical. Do you guys have the means to prototype this? If so, PM me offline when you get a chance.

I just want to make sure my posts don't make it seem like I'm knocking Jzagaja. I think what he is doing is great and he is very capable. I simply want to make sure there isn't a deficiency in the design that is avoidable. J, please keep up the good work.

Max
coctostan is offline  
post #819 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 09:42 AM
Member
 
jzagaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Jzagaja, if there is no way to manufacture a waveguide that starts at the green arrow from my prior drawing I think we have a real issue.

It will start - this extension is only technological step required for different drivers with slightly different throat diameter. Without it every horn is useless.
jzagaja is offline  
post #820 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 10:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coctostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

It will start - this extension is only technological step required for different drivers with slightly different throat diameter. Without it every horn is useless.

Are you saying the conical section is there to help match up to variances in the CD exit diameters?
coctostan is offline  
post #821 of 11188 Old 12-23-2010, 01:13 PM
Member
 
jzagaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yes it takes into account material shrinkage, mold wearing, throat diameter variations in drivers.
jzagaja is offline  
post #822 of 11188 Old 12-29-2010, 10:32 PM
Senior Member
 
3AMRecords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Bump.

I know that there are things happening with this project that are happening in the background, but I was wondering if we could hear about it.
Even if it is simple as: Yep we are still working on this.
Given that it has been a week.

Max

Dual Dayton RSS390HF-4 15" Sonosub Build thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"You mean, you um, you built those things?"
"Yep!" "Why?" *Power on* "Oh, that's why"
3AMRecords is offline  
post #823 of 11188 Old 12-29-2010, 11:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked: 565
I was told they might have time to start on it this week. Obviously at this time of year, things can change so I didn't want to bother them for a few days. Maybe I'll send them an e-mail tomorrow just to see how things are progressing.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

Erich H is online now  
post #824 of 11188 Old 12-30-2010, 09:05 AM
Senior Member
 
3AMRecords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I was told they might have time to start on it this week. Obviously at this time of year, things can change so I didn't want to bother them for a few days. Maybe I'll send them an e-mail tomorrow just to see how things are progressing.
Thanks.

I knew that we were waiting on this part, and obviously this time of year is hectic on everyone. I just wanted to keep everyone posted and up to date with this.

Max

Dual Dayton RSS390HF-4 15" Sonosub Build thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"You mean, you um, you built those things?"
"Yep!" "Why?" *Power on* "Oh, that's why"
3AMRecords is offline  
post #825 of 11188 Old 12-30-2010, 10:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked: 565
I got an e-mail from them letting me know that they're currently working on it. So it's a little ahead of schedule.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

Erich H is online now  
post #826 of 11188 Old 12-30-2010, 03:51 PM
Member
 
jzagaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
We can start think on another OS-18, SEOS-10, JMLC-OS-18...
jzagaja is offline  
post #827 of 11188 Old 12-30-2010, 04:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
bwaslo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 822
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

We can start think on another OS-18, SEOS-10, JMLC-OS-18...

I vote for a SEOS-18 90x45...

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

XSim -free crossover designer and simulator
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bwaslo is offline  
post #828 of 11188 Old 12-30-2010, 04:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

We can start think on another OS-18, SEOS-10, JMLC-OS-18...

Earlier I thought the SEOS-10 might be a neat idea. I sent an e-mail this morning letting him know. The SEOS-12 is probably too close to the 15, so dropping down to a 10" might not be bad.

But I'm wondering if it would make sense to get testing done on the SEOS-15 first? I'm going to be sending that prototype to Zilch.

Heck if you have the machinery to do the 10" right now, and if it keeps prototype pricing down because you're doing similar designs at the same time, I'm in. I'll e-mail you later.

I think anything over a 15" baffle mount might be a tough sell. Maybe an OS-15? Not sure it's a big enough jump over the OS-12 though.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

Erich H is online now  
post #829 of 11188 Old 12-31-2010, 04:18 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
I vote for a SEOS-18 90x45...
2 votes now for that one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
.

I think anything over a 15" baffle mount might be a tough sell. Maybe an OS-15? Not sure it's a big enough jump over the OS-12 though.
No doubt the larger choice is not popular with this crowd and its not going to be a mass market purchase but I still want one. Its what I want in my 2011 HT re-do.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #830 of 11188 Old 12-31-2010, 07:38 AM
Senior Member
 
3AMRecords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

We can start think on another OS-18, SEOS-10, JMLC-OS-18...

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

2 votes now for that one.

No doubt the larger choice is not popular with this crowd and its not going to be a mass market purchase but I still want one. Its what I want in my 2011 HT re-do.

I am not size restricted at all, though 18 would be overkill for my room. (But who here isn't about overkill?)

I would be very interested in the 18 size, though I do agree and I think we need to measure the one that we are working on now first.

Max

Dual Dayton RSS390HF-4 15" Sonosub Build thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"You mean, you um, you built those things?"
"Yep!" "Why?" *Power on* "Oh, that's why"
3AMRecords is offline  
post #831 of 11188 Old 12-31-2010, 07:41 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Eric, will have to answer it all but if they are offering a second choice for some great value then its not a bad idea to get 2 instead of 1 now. Donig one later might cost more money.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #832 of 11188 Old 12-31-2010, 10:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 201 Post(s)
Liked: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Earlier I thought the SEOS-10 might be a neat idea. I sent an e-mail this morning letting him know. The SEOS-12 is probably too close to the 15, so dropping down to a 10" might not be bad.

I think the SEOS-12 is the sweet spott.

As Geddes says about his own designs, the 12" is very close in performance to the 15" at half the box size and cost, but a significant step up in performance over the 10".

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #833 of 11188 Old 12-31-2010, 12:53 PM
Senior Member
 
3AMRecords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Earlier I thought the SEOS-10 might be a neat idea. I sent an e-mail this morning letting him know.

Heck if you have the machinery to do the 10" right now, and if it keeps prototype pricing down because you're doing similar designs at the same time, I'm in. I'll e-mail you later.

This actually might be a great idea for people looking to do Surrounds in the same type of format. if the space/cost/time is right.

Max

Dual Dayton RSS390HF-4 15" Sonosub Build thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"You mean, you um, you built those things?"
"Yep!" "Why?" *Power on* "Oh, that's why"
3AMRecords is offline  
post #834 of 11188 Old 01-01-2011, 01:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,429
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As Geddes says about his own designs, the 12" is very close in performance to the 15" at half the box size and cost, but a significant step up in performance over the 10".

He's talking primarily about the woofer with those comments, though, IIRC. He was also talking about doing a speaker with a 15" WG and a 12" woofer.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
DS-21 is offline  
post #835 of 11188 Old 01-01-2011, 05:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

He's talking primarily about the woofer with those comments, though, IIRC. He was also talking about doing a speaker with a 15" WG and a 12" woofer.

Geddes has commented several times that smaller waveguides are not as good as the larger ones. He likes to Crossover below 1KHz and he likes directivity down that low, a 10" OS waveguide gives him neither.

Im one of those that thinks larger woofers are not the best SQ choices above 1KHz. Maybe matching a 6.5" pure mid range with a smaller waveguide will work but listening to 10", 12 and 15" woofers above 1kHz has me wondering if they are as good as pure mid range smaller choices. I have some higher quality choices too so its not a question of driver choice.

I remember a discussion on DIyAudio about the size of the piston dictate the hypothetical limits where it performs the best. There was a formula used too but I can not find it right now.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #836 of 11188 Old 01-01-2011, 09:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NEO Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 2,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I remember a discussion on DIyAudio about the size of the piston dictate the hypothetical limits where it performs the best. There was a formula used too but I can not find it right now.

Hi Penn,
Generally speaking the directivity control of the woofer narrows or begins beaming as the wavelength approaches the piston diameter, hence bigger woofers beam at lower frequency's than the smaller woofers. This is not taking into account cone breakup that can also limit a woofer's useful upper limit. Cone breakup is usually used to extend the response of a woofer, kind of a trick if you will. One must be careful when looking at data sheets; a "nice extended response" on a big pro driver is most commonly a byproduct of the cone breakup, it is distortion. Look for ripples in the electrical phase and impedance, also note that paper cones with the circular ribs are specifically engineered to use the breakup to extend the response.

Regards,
Dan
NEO Dan is offline  
post #837 of 11188 Old 01-01-2011, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,454
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 1025
tad makes some of the best cd's on the market.

when they went for an application to maximize their potential, what did they choose?

td-tsm2.

after all the research in harman/jbl, they ended up with something quite close in design.

jbl-k2.

i'm not going to say that noah isn't right with respect to popularity...there, small will always win. when it comes to performance though...the 18" ~45x90 is what many smart folks have arrived at as close to optimal as possible.




LL
LL

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #838 of 11188 Old 01-02-2011, 08:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked: 565
Won't be too long from now for the prototype to be completed. They want to make sure everything is cured and stabilized. The company does great work, so these should look really nice.


By the way, I'm going to try and set up a way to get all those past "Group Buys" from other websites into one package to be shipped here from Poland. That shipment won't contain these WG's, but any of the other ones they offer. Like the Iwata-300! Even the empty "mummie" cabinets.

Shipping is going to stink no matter how you slice it, but a full pallet should hopefully knock that down a bit per item. I'll drive up to Chicago to pick up the pallet, then ship each piece out. Yes, it's a long drive, but I'm still going to do it. I'll give more info on all this later.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

Erich H is online now  
post #839 of 11188 Old 01-02-2011, 10:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
bwaslo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 822
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 77
I hope this isn't going too far off the current path of this thread, but does anyone know how to progress from a styrofoam form to a usable waveguide? It occurs to me that it shouldn't be too difficult to make a series of thin elliptical shaped sheets of styrofoam, stack them, and smooth down the edges to make a form for the inside of a waveguide. (I haven't actually tried this, but it seems like that part should be pretty straightforward).

The next step isn't so straightforward, though. I'd need to make the template able to withstand the temperature and chemical effects of molding an actual guide from it. Is there something that could be used to coat it to seal, smooth, and vapor proof it? Maybe white glue? I know that a lot of chemicals turn styro into goo.

Or maybe there would have to be more steps -- make a guide in plaster from the stryo, then make another template (using ??) from the plaster guide, then fabricate from there? Any molding experts out there, or does anyone know any good books on the subject.

Yes, this is toward making an 18 or 20" EOS waveguide, if I get time to try.

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

XSim -free crossover designer and simulator
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bwaslo is offline  
post #840 of 11188 Old 01-02-2011, 09:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 201 Post(s)
Liked: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

He's talking primarily about the woofer with those comments, though, IIRC.

No, he was comparing the Abbey and Summa.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

Cone breakup is usually used to extend the response of a woofer, kind of a trick if you will. One must be careful when looking at data sheets; a "nice extended response" on a big pro driver is most commonly a byproduct of the cone breakup, it is distortion.

It's not always that bad.

If the cone profile is curvilinear and the material well damped, the high freq response isn't output from the uncontrolled breakup areas but from the center of the cone decoupling from the outer portion.

This reduces the effective mass being driven and widens dispersion.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off