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post #8461 of 11731 Old 10-25-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by avpassion View Post

Erich,

Since you asked for specifics, I would very much like to see a stand mounted or floor-standing 2-way that uses a 15" SEOS, a compression driver with a beryllium diaphragm (or the new compression driver you mentioned recently) and an AE TD 15 woofer. I would like the cabinet and baffle to incorporate layering of complementary anti-resonant materials such as baltic birch ply and the phenolic material mentioned a few pages back. I suspect that even building a thick baffle using that material would have advantages.

Another speaker that I would like to see is a floor-standing 3-way that incorporates the RAAL SEOS waveguide, a RAAL 140-15D tweeter. I am not as certain about what you would pair it with, but perhaps Wavecor or a AudioTechnology 15H SDKAM midrange and Wavecor, AE TD or AudioTechnology 10", 12" or 15" Sandwich Cone woofer. Again, the cabinet would really need to incorporate a complementary combination of anti-resonant materials.
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I second the 15 inch woofer with a 15 inch waveguide and a really expensive and good compression driver.... full range tweaked to very nice mid bass punch...

Yeah, there ought to be a lot of guys sitting on some kind of AE TD 15" driver since the group buy, and perhaps a lot of guys sitting on the BMS 4550 from that group buy as well? I understand if Erich want to sell his own CD though, but for those guys (me included) already in possession of the above mentioned set up would still by the SEOS from him. Just a thought..

BTW, using a viscoelastic glue in a sandwich construction is a very effective way of dealing with resonant cabinets.
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post #8462 of 11731 Old 10-25-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avpassion View Post

Erich,

Since you asked for specifics, I would very much like to see a stand mounted or floor-standing 2-way that uses a 15" SEOS, a compression driver with a beryllium diaphragm (or the new compression driver you mentioned recently) and an AE TD 15 woofer. I would like the cabinet and baffle to incorporate layering of complementary anti-resonant materials such as baltic birch ply and the phenolic material mentioned a few pages back. I suspect that even building a thick baffle using that material would have advantages.

Another speaker that I would like to see is a floor-standing 3-way that incorporates the RAAL SEOS waveguide, a RAAL 140-15D tweeter. I am not as certain about what you would pair it with, but perhaps Wavecor or a AudioTechnology 15H SDKAM midrange and Wavecor, AE TD or AudioTechnology 10", 12" or 15" Sandwich Cone woofer. Again, the cabinet would really need to incorporate a complementary combination of anti-resonant materials.
If you speak to RAAL, they'll tell you that they don't recommend using a waveguide with their tweeters.

Mike
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post #8463 of 11731 Old 10-25-2013, 02:04 PM
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Here is what I would consider doing:
1). Focus on making the best possible 2 way using the new 15" SOES waveguide. Don't worry about it being full range as most people will be running dedicated sub woofers. If possible, bring the New Super Compression driver to market. It will differentiate your effort from all the other possible solutions because it is your custom driver. I'm not sure if it will need to be a BE driver because the lower crossover point may not be needed. However it seems to be a very big selling point.
Think about using either a 12" or 15" AE driver. I'm not sure which one would work better but the experts probably know the tradeoffs to make. After the drivers are lined up, think about what can be done on the cabinet side to bring it to the next level. I think incorporating some Phenolic interior panels would be a good start to taking them to the next level. I don't think it has to be an all or nothing proposal to get the benefits of different materials in the speaker boxes.
2). Bring out a killer surround speaker with sensitivity that approaches the other designs. Make it available with surround appropriate speaker cabinet.
My favorite surround http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=10915.0
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post #8464 of 11731 Old 10-25-2013, 02:08 PM
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I've got an idea. But Face2 for his AE 10" / SEOS 12 design biggrin.gif Quite holding out on us wink.gif
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post #8465 of 11731 Old 10-25-2013, 02:16 PM
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Another method of damping cabinets is to apply a polyurethane rubber compound to the interior.
http://www.smooth-on.com/Life-Casting--Uret/c3_0_6_1117/index.html

This high end builder uses 15mm to 25mm spreadable poly rubber for cabinet damping.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ariescerat/1.html

Here's another , non polyurethane coating which is much cheaper.

http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coating-Acoust-X-Sound-Damping-Coating.html

and another:

http://store.secondskinaudio.com/spectrum-1-gallon/

Actually the Spectrum Sludge appears to be the a better way to build up a thick layer.
http://store.secondskinaudio.com/spectrum-sludge-1-gallon/

The irregular applied surface of the SS would be a good way to randomize internal reflections.
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post #8466 of 11731 Old 10-25-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT cOz View Post

Here is what I would consider doing:
1). Focus on making the best possible 2 way using the new 15" SOES waveguide. Don't worry about it being full range as most people will be running dedicated sub woofers. If possible, bring the New Super Compression driver to market. It will differentiate your effort from all the other possible solutions because it is your custom driver. I'm not sure if it will need to be a BE driver because the lower crossover point may not be needed. However it seems to be a very big selling point.
Think about using either a 12" or 15" AE driver. I'm not sure which one would work better but the experts probably know the tradeoffs to make. After the drivers are lined up, think about what can be done on the cabinet side to bring it to the next level. I think incorporating some Phenolic interior panels would be a good start to taking them to the next level. I don't think it has to be an all or nothing proposal to get the benefits of different materials in the speaker boxes.
2). Bring out a killer surround speaker with sensitivity that approaches the other designs. Make it available with surround appropriate speaker cabinet.
My favorite surround http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=10915.0

+1 on making the best 2 way without being full range. I vote for TD15M (I'm sitting on 3 of these since I couldn't pass up on the CT and built those instead tongue.gif) with either the fully loaded CD, radian with Be, BMS coax, etc.. Seos 15, 18 or even the 24. Also how about some 8 or 10" coaxial surrounds.
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post #8467 of 11731 Old 10-28-2013, 08:48 PM
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Erich ,
Any idea when we might see some of these new designs ?
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post #8468 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The 15" woofer and SEOS-15 are in the works. Actually, a couple of them.

I do have some Faital Pro components that came in yesterday, so those are going to be tested as well.

I keep debating if the 15" models should be 2 way or 3 way. The dual 8" and 10" models have been on the plate for a while, I've just been dragging my feet on which woofer models to use, and whether I should be shooting for 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers.

I was ready to order 3 x Sentinels, but now I want to know more about those up comming SEOS-15's.

Any news on those? or any info at all you can share at this point?
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post #8469 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The 15" woofer and SEOS-15 are in the works. Actually, a couple of them.

I do have some Faital Pro components that came in yesterday, so those are going to be tested as well.

I keep debating if the 15" models should be 2 way or 3 way. The dual 8" and 10" models have been on the plate for a while, I've just been dragging my feet on which woofer models to use, and whether I should be shooting for 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers.

Let me know how the FailtalPro stuff works, I am very interested in their products.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

Steam: madbrayniak

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post #8470 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Depends I guess. I would say that it is. Vertically stacking drivers like that will get the sound off the ceiling and floor and focus it out into the plane of the room. I personally think this is why so many people like 3 ways over 2 ways. They thinks its because the mids are more pure without the bass in the driver (and surely that's part of it) but I think its that the mids are more pure because the ceiling and floor aren't mucking up the sound as much.

Tux,

I think you might have just explained some behavior I have been puzzled with in my room (when using REW to compare my previous KLipsch RF35 towers versus my Deltalight / SEOS12's).
The Klipsch 35's; with multiple drivers, seemed to exhibit less floor/ceiling bounce? I say floor/ceiling bounce because; there is a null that no amount of horizontal positioning of the SEOS speakers seems to improve. I need to make one more round of REW measurements experimenting with different horizontal positions (and perhaps eliminating SBIR with varying distances from the front wall to be sure).

I'm loving my current SEOS units, but just thinking that multiple vertically stacked drivers might be the key for this room; for my next speaker build?

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post #8471 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 03:49 PM
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Yup. It's an often overlooked item. It's why I try to cross so low all the time, and shy away from huge woofers. Go back to the very early pages of this thread, Zilch was all about getting CTC spacing close. It's because the floor and ceiling matter. Some research suggests the ceiling reflection is the most offensive. And it's so hard to treat. Floors can at least get carpet or a rug.

In your case, try and raise or lower the speaker. 1/3 the way up. Make sure it doesn't coincide with a horizontal reflection. And ask someone who knows more about rooms than me wink.gif
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post #8472 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 03:54 PM
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Tux,
Thanks for the quick response. My next round with REW will be to optimize the X/Y positioning. Once that's locked in; I will make some REW comparison sweeps at varying speaker heights.

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post #8473 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikegeek 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avpassion 
Erich,

Since you asked for specifics, I would very much like to see a stand mounted or floor-standing 2-way that uses a 15" SEOS, a compression driver with a beryllium diaphragm (or the new compression driver you mentioned recently) and an AE TD 15 woofer. I would like the cabinet and baffle to incorporate layering of complementary anti-resonant materials such as baltic birch ply and the phenolic material mentioned a few pages back. I suspect that even building a thick baffle using that material would have advantages.
I second the 15 inch woofer with a 15 inch waveguide and a really expensive and good compression driver.... full range tweaked to very nice mid bass punch...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donivan 
+1 on making the best 2 way without being full range. I vote for TD15M (I'm sitting on 3 of these since I couldn't pass up on the CT and built those instead ) with either the fully loaded CD, radian with Be, BMS coax, etc.. Seos 15, 18 or even the 24. Also how about some 8 or 10" coaxial surrounds.

+1

After building the Overnight Sensations for a local cafe (and all the praise they garner from non-audiophile customers) and knowing Jeff B's fondness for the AE drivers, I think having him design a SEOS15/TD15M would certainly raise more than a few eyebrows and have a few big boys running scared.

Some other considerations:
Solid birch enclosure
Rear mounting of the woofer
Isolating the waveguide from the woofer enclosure (or top mounting it)
or
Rear mounting of the waveguide integrating the baffle with the mouth
Utilizing wave-canceling enclosure geometry
As mentioned before, incorporate internal reflection damping materials inside the enclosure (roofing felt?)
Low crossover frequency (sub 1000Hz)
And of course, utilizing the the "fully loaded" compression driver with possible beryllium diaphragm
I imagine discussion of foam plugs is verboten

When I preordered the seos12 I was hoping for a more full-range solution to come out of this but have since come around to the HT way of thinking and am fine with a -3dB of 80Hz. That said, a sealed enclosure is still desireable to those of planning on running them full-range with a sealed enclosure's natural roll-off (and decreased group delay) and using bass management & subs for the sub-80Hz range.
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post #8474 of 11731 Old 10-29-2013, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBrinkman View Post


+1

After building the Overnight Sensations for a local cafe (and all the praise they garner from non-audiophile customers) and knowing Jeff B's fondness for the AE drivers, I think having him design a SEOS15/TD15M would certainly raise more than a few eyebrows and have a few big boys running scared.

Some other considerations:
Solid birch enclosure
Rear mounting of the woofer
Isolating the waveguide from the woofer enclosure (or top mounting it)
or
Rear mounting of the waveguide integrating the baffle with the mouth
Utilizing wave-canceling enclosure geometry
As mentioned before, incorporate internal reflection damping materials inside the enclosure (roofing felt?)
Low crossover frequency (sub 1000Hz)
And of course, utilizing the the "fully loaded" compression driver with possible beryllium diaphragm
I imagine discussion of foam plugs is verboten

When I preordered the seos12 I was hoping for a more full-range solution to come out of this but have since come around to the HT way of thinking and am fine with a -3dB of 80Hz. That said, a sealed enclosure is still desireable to those of planning on running them full-range with a sealed enclosure's natural roll-off (and decreased group delay) and using bass management & subs for the sub-80Hz range.

Somewhere along this line for the SEOS 15, but with a crossover of 400hz or even 300hz if possible to the CD... I have the Noesis 212s and they are crossed at 400hz and vocals just sounds so amazing coming out of the CD Coaxial... and yes, sealed...
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post #8475 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 07:41 PM
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The Seos 15 is too small to be used down to 3-400hz, so is 1" exit drivers.
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post #8476 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post

The Seos 15 is too small to be used down to 3-400hz, so is 1" exit drivers.

The Noesis is crossed at 400hz and the horn is only 12 inches... and it seems to work great...
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post #8477 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 09:34 PM
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It uses the 1.4" BMS 4593 coax (on the 18Sound XR1464)
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post #8478 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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exa,

if the c.d. is up to it and the horn and the woofer lose directivity control at about the same rate, a lower cross becomes possible without any significant directivity interrupt.

i put together a fairly extensive explanation here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/11370#post_23830092

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #8479 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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"Somewhere along this line for the SEOS 15, but with a crossover of 400hz or even 300hz if possible to the CD... I have the Noesis 212s and they are crossed at 400hz and vocals just sounds so amazing coming out of the CD Coaxial... and yes, sealed..."

that is a good strategy, but the compression driver is about a $600 unit +/- and that about doubles the cost of the whole project. might also work best on a little larger horn, such as the 18".

the middle ground would be an upgraded c.d. that could be crossed in around 750hz or so. perhaps a 1.4" on a 15-18" seos or something else. not sure if erich has one of those in the pile.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #8480 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 10:07 PM
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How difficult do you think it would be to have a larger SEOS waveguide (15-18) molded to accept a 2" CD? There are a number of them on PE that aren't terribly expensive* and will reach down to 500 Hz, although their specs suggest a 2nd order crossover at 800 Hz is more effective.

* "aren't terribly expensive" meaning about $160-200.
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post #8481 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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2" compression drivers begin to compromise the top end and so tend to be used with super tweeters of some sort which complicates the whole thing again. otherwise, that would be an excellent solution.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #8482 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 10:40 PM
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Interesting, thank you.

I suppose we could do stacked SEOS horns. A single 15" woofer, a SEOS 18 or 24 with a 2" CD, then a SEOS 10 with a 1" CD.

I might draw that up.
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post #8483 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

exa,

if the c.d. is up to it and the horn and the woofer lose directivity control at about the same rate, a lower cross becomes possible without any significant directivity interrupt.

i put together a fairly extensive explanation here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/11370#post_23830092

Im too tired to read that now(will do later), but are you talking just in theory, or do you have any examples of 1" CDs that can handle a 400hz XO?
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post #8484 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Somewhere along this line for the SEOS 15, but with a crossover of 400hz or even 300hz if possible to the CD... I have the Noesis 212s and they are crossed at 400hz and vocals just sounds so amazing coming out of the CD Coaxial... and yes, sealed..."

that is a good strategy, but the compression driver is about a $600 unit +/- and that about doubles the cost of the whole project. might also work best on a little larger horn, such as the 18".

the middle ground would be an upgraded c.d. that could be crossed in around 750hz or so. perhaps a 1.4" on a 15-18" seos or something else. not sure if erich has one of those in the pile.

Erich was asking for a 'high end' build... So, i suppose a $600 CD is not out of the question.. (in fact, if anyone can find an even better CD, that'll be welcomed)

I might be wrong here, but after hearing the vocals on the Noesis crossed at 400hz, (which covers almost all of the female vocal range, and most of the male's), I can't see any other way to best it...

Might be a great idea to have some higher range, more expensive build speakers for those who are looking for the 'something special'...
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post #8485 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

Interesting, thank you.

I suppose we could do stacked SEOS horns. A single 15" woofer, a SEOS 18 or 24 with a 2" CD, then a SEOS 10 with a 1" CD.

I might draw that up.
At that point you may as well go for a SEOS-18 or 24 with a coaxial 1.4" CD.

Mike
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post #8486 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 11:41 PM
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I was having a hard time finding 1.4" CDs that could go down to 5-800 Hz without spending a ton of money, so I went for 2".
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post #8487 of 11731 Old 10-30-2013, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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"Erich was asking for a 'high end' build..."

eek.gif

it is a continuum.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #8488 of 11731 Old 10-31-2013, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

I was having a hard time finding 1.4" CDs that could go down to 5-800 Hz without spending a ton of money, so I went for 2".
BMS has a couple. I'm sure there's others out there too.

Mike
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post #8489 of 11731 Old 10-31-2013, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

I was having a hard time finding 1.4" CDs that could go down to 5-800 Hz without spending a ton of money, so I went for 2".

If you go for 2 inch, then add a super tweeter, or another CD for higher freq, then wouldn't that be the same cost as a coaxial 1.4 inch that does the whole range?
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post #8490 of 11731 Old 10-31-2013, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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exa, my comment was about this: "The Seos 15 is too small to be used down to 3-400hz..." in the link you'll see what i'm talking about.

Listen. It's All Good.
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