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post #9181 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 12:12 PM
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Someone told me the following and I found it interesting. Conceptually, I understand it, but I don't design speakers. Curious what designers of SEOS speakers think of this:
Quote:
....In reality though the SEOS12 is a better match to the 10" driver as the SEOS10 doesn't extend quite low enough. A 10" driver you really want to cross at 1500hz or lower. That is about the maximum to retain 90 degrees wide for any 10" driver. The SEOS12 will do this better if you can fit it. Likewise the SEOS15 is a better option with the [12" driver]. However, many people are still using the SEOS12 with [12" driver]. The slight narrowing of dispersion isn't an issue for many people.
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post #9182 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 12:22 PM
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This was the picture that convinced me of going waveguide route
ygevajy2.jpg
I like all those dots around me
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post #9183 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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tony, that quote is roughly right.

the basic rule of thumb is when a wavelength is about the width of the driver (the actual cone), the driver will be beaming with the sound -6db at 45 degrees off axis.

standard driver sizes are 15, 12, 10, and 8 inches nominal, with cone diameters of roughly 13, 10, 8, and 6 inches.

those actual widths correspond very roughly to beaming frequencies of 1,000hz, 1333hz, 1666hz, and 2000hz. so that is about as high as you'd want to run them when crossing over to a 90 degree horn.

...

for good directivity control, you want a smooth transition from the horn to the woofer through the crossover region.

so take a horn, which is called 90 degree horizontal, that means that if you go off axis 45 degree to the left or right the sound will be down -6db.

the basic rule of thumb for a 90 degree horn is roughly the same as that of a driver. when the horn is about 1 wavelength wide, it will be starting to lose it pattern control.

what this means is that you roughly want a horn that is about the same size or one size larger than your woofer, at least in some sense.

so working backwards from the cone frequencies of 1,000hz, 1333hz, 1666hz, and 2000hz, and you'd want horns that are at least 12, 9, 7, and 5 inches in diameter.

...

there are lots of other factors and there is also some wiggle room, but that is roughly the idea.
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post #9184 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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also, what the heck is beaming?

when a speaker plays a very low frequency, like a subwoofer does, the sound is radiated almost omni-directionally. i.e., the sound goes out in all directions.

as the frequency gets higher and higher, more and more of the sound starts to be projected forward in front of the driver and less get radiated to the sides and back.

so the higher in the frequency you go the tighter and tighter the forward beam of sound will be.

one way to measure how much "beaming" is occurring is to look at how much the sound is down 45 degree off axis relative to the spl on axis.

if the 45 degree sound is down only 1 db relative to the spl on axis, that's not very much beaming.

when it is down 6db, that is about as much as you want for matching to a 90 degree horn.

when it is down 12db, that is REALLY beaming the sound forward and generally not a really good sound quality choice because moving just a little bit to the side changes the character of the sound quite a bit. it will also be big mismatch for a 90 degree horn.

hope that helps, at least a bit.
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post #9185 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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by the way, wayne parham has some good information here: http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
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post #9186 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 05:40 PM
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Anyone know if Erich is still doing custom baffles like for the 12" Acoustic Elegance drivers? I guess it's not technically custom since he's already made some. I Just know he's busy so I hate to flood him with another email/PM. I don't even see blank baffles on the site anymore...unless I'm missing it.
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post #9187 of 11173 Old 02-23-2014, 09:08 PM
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That reminds me too...are there any plans in the near future to bring out a 12" sealed speaker that would fit in the 21 x 14.5 x 10.75 flat pack?? This would make a great center and/or surrounds for the fusion-15 sentenel v2 when that comes out...
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post #9188 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 11:44 AM
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Erich, I realize that the speaker designer probably gets this privilege, but since the Fusion 6's are still unnamed I thought I'd give it a shot. wink.gif

Given their size and power this seems appropriate: The Honey Badger.

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post #9189 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderm0n View Post

Erich, I realize that the speaker designer probably gets this privilege, but since the Fusion 6's are still unnamed I thought I'd give it a shot. wink.gif

Given their size and power this seems appropriate: The Honey Badger.
I'm not sure where The Honey Badger comes from. I must have missed something. wink.gif


My vote would be for Fusion-6 Assassins since the 15's are the sentinels.

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post #9190 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

I'm not sure where The Honey Badger comes from. I must have missed something. wink.gif

start here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

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post #9191 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 07:48 PM
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I think I'm close to talking my GF in to using some of her tax refund on a pair of Fusion-6's for the living room (as soon as the flat packs are ready). I'd get them myself, but I already spent my return on a UXL-18 and pair of Fusion-12's for the game room tongue.gifcool.gif The other option would be the Fusion-8, but I think she'd rather save the ~$120. Besides, dat purple woofer.


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post #9192 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel975 View Post

I think I'm close to talking my GF in to using some of her tax refund on a pair of Fusion-6's for the living room (as soon as the flat packs are ready). I'd get them myself, but I already spent my return on a UXL-18 and pair of Fusion-12's for the game room tongue.gifcool.gif The other option would be the Fusion-8, but I think she'd rather save the ~$120. Besides, dat purple woofer.

I was just modeling the TM and man, it's nice! -3db at 80hz sealed. Figure in 3db of baffle step and these guys hit xmax at 80watts and almost at reference level (~104.5db 1m)
And if you XO at 100hz, you are solid at 100watts RMS and still be under xmax.
These are going to make a heck of a surround, or small room speaker. I might have to also get a pair biggrin.gif
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post #9193 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 09:30 PM
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They can take a good amount of power (more than you mentioned) and you're right, they were designed purposely to roll off right there around 80hz. They're impressive even in a decent sized room, and not just for surrounds.

While working on the speaker, MTG90 poured a channel of his Behringer A500 amp into one of them. If I recall, he thought it was 200 watts, or maybe this was the one he said he clipped one amp channel on, not sure. biggrin.gif We had some fun with this little bugger.

Believe it or not, we probably spent more time deciding on what to use in the Fusion-6 than any other speaker so far. There were a couple other versions completely built using different components and maybe in time those will be listed some where. But in the end this model came together really good.
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post #9194 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 09:49 PM
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Are you coming out with some faital pro coaxial speakers too??
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post #9195 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

They can take a good amount of power (more than you mentioned) and you're right, they were designed purposely to roll off right there around 80hz. They're impressive even in a decent sized room, and not just for surrounds.

While working on the speaker, MTG90 poured a channel of his Behringer A500 amp into one of them. If I recall, he thought it was 200 watts, or maybe this was the one he said he clipped one amp channel on, not sure. biggrin.gif We had some fun with this little bugger.

Believe it or not, we probably spent more time deciding on what to use in the Fusion-6 than any other speaker so far. There were a couple other versions completely built using different components and maybe in time those will be listed some where. But in the end this model came together really good.



Nice. I might be ordering a pair right as they become available. Just have to keep sweet talking the GF. haha tongue.gif


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post #9196 of 11173 Old 02-24-2014, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

They can take a good amount of power (more than you mentioned) and you're right, they were designed purposely to roll off right there around 80hz. They're impressive even in a decent sized room, and not just for surrounds.

While working on the speaker, MTG90 poured a channel of his Behringer A500 amp into one of them. If I recall, he thought it was 200 watts, or maybe this was the one he said he clipped one amp channel on, not sure. biggrin.gif We had some fun with this little bugger.

Lets just say you can saturate the inductor with dynamic material before it sounds like the drivers are stressed, I have done that driving it with my Altec 9446A as it approached 400w. That woofer can take a beating, no trouble running a few hundred watts through it (obviously not continuous power). However I would advise use of a highpass at those levels, I did not use one while testing it but you never know if the right bass drop could be too much for the woofer. cool.gif
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post #9197 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post

Are you coming out with some faital pro coaxial speakers too??

I sure hope so as well. I've used the Faital Pro regular woofers in the past and really enjoy working with them. Great sound quality at a good price.

Erich, if you would like to work on an XO design for the Faital Pro coax's I will be receiving a pair of the 8HX150 coax's pretty soon. I'd be willing to send the pair to a designer to get a XO worked out for them.
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post #9198 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 06:02 AM
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Does this mean we will see larger faital pro woofers in the diysg lineup soon?? I am sure they sound great but just as good...they look awesome in solid black!!
I really hate the purple and grey/blue eminence woofers!! They are ugly looking as hell...the b&c and faital pro look the best so far...but as you know, the ear can't see beauty!!
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post #9199 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 06:33 AM
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Erich, hopefully there will be the option of preassembled crossovers for the Fusion-6? I was impressed (and relieved) with my Fusion-12 assembled crossovers!

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post #9200 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I sure hope so as well. I've used the Faital Pro regular woofers in the past and really enjoy working with them. Great sound quality at a good price.

Erich, if you would like to work on an XO design for the Faital Pro coax's I will be receiving a pair of the 8HX150 coax's pretty soon. I'd be willing to send the pair to a designer to get a XO worked out for them.

I've got that model already. It was worked on, but it wasn't coming together as hoped. So for now, it was put on the back burner.


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post #9201 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 07:28 AM
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There are crossover boards made up for the Fusion-6, so assembled crossovers can be an option.


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post #9202 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've got that model already. It was worked on, but it wasn't coming together as hoped. So for now, it was put on the back burner.
mad.gifmad.gif
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post #9203 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 09:35 AM
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Fusion-6 mtm:
What is the approx input sensitivity and wattage?? I would expect at least 3db more sensitive since we are doubling up the speakers??

This fusion-6 set is totally matched...decisions, decisions

The fusion-8 mtm, why not a sealed version with the horn turned horizontal aswell?? Would gladly sacrifice some bass in the center speaker...
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post #9204 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

ErichH, when will the Fusion-6 L/R and Center be available for order and will there be flat packs? Want to order a 5.0 system for a game room (which will be about 10x16 so I think these will be plenty for that size room?) that I will have in my new house. Do you have any response graphs for it yet?


I think they will do well for a room that size however they are not full range speakers (they start to roll off around 80hz) so a subwoofer would help fill in the low end.

Here is the on axis response graph with measured and minimum phase, notice phase is nearly flat/linear. These were just quick measurements taken indoors so ignore below 500Hz or so:



0-90 degrees off axis horizontal at 10 degree increments:

nice crossover work there!

guys, this is a nice one. the transition from the waveguide to the woofer is without any hiccups in the off axis response, the on axis response, or the phase.

the only other thing is really the level/voicing and that is a personal preference thing. i would have though a slightly more downward sloping response would have been preferred, but who knows...maybe they just do the other things so well, that isn't as important in this case?

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post #9205 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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i wonder if you could take a close mic of the woofer, so there is some idea of how it will actually perform on axis excluding room effects.

also, i feel like it still needs to be mentioned, but the THX SPEC FOR MAINS IS 80HZ -3DB.

if they hit that goal, they hit the goal.

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post #9206 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 10:27 AM
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the only other thing is really the level/voicing and that is a personal preference thing. i would have though a slightly more downward sloping response would have been preferred, but who knows...maybe they just do the other things so well, that isn't as important in this case?

I wouldn't expect that type of voicing to be an improvement with this type of speaker, which is mostly omni-directional up to nearly 1khz, then becomes rapidly directional above 2khz. That would likely tame the high end naturally. Unlike a speaker that holds directivity very low and narrow, may sound better with a down tilt.
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post #9207 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 11:28 AM
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^
I agree with Tux, on these smaller speakers a rolled off top end tends to make the sound a little dull or soft and/or makes the midrange/bass too pronounced. The larger the speaker (or perhaps the lower it controls the directivity) the more natural it sounds with a slight tilt to the response
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post

Fusion-6 mtm:
What is the approx input sensitivity and wattage?? I would expect at least 3db more sensitive since we are doubling up the speakers??

The Fusion-6 MTM has the woofers in series as to keep impedance above 8 ohms for those who are picky about that sort of thing so overall sensitivity is the exact same as the single woofer version, however efficiency does go up 3dB. Distortion of the MTM will be about 6dB less below the crossover then the TM.

I would expect the design to handle roughly twice the power as the TM. The inductor *should* handle twice the power because the series wiring cuts current in half, rather then doubling it like parallel wiring would.
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post #9208 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 11:31 AM
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 the THX SPEC FOR MAINS IS 80HZ -3DB.

 

 

 

Can you explain what exactly that means? -3DB from what? 



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post #9209 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 11:42 AM
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-3dB or f3 usually refers to the low frequency corner where bass output is dropping and it is down 3dB from the point where output is level or flat.
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post #9210 of 11173 Old 02-25-2014, 11:48 AM
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^ That. It's the frequency at which the speaker is 3 decibels down from zero decibels. That's what people refer to as the "F3" point in speaker and subwoofer design.



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