Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 310 - AVS Forum
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post #9271 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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just seems like there are very few offerings such as these two discontinued klipsch models.
they are hundred pounders, so the expectation isn't that they would be super cheap, but that they would be super performers.

klf30


cf4


going even a little taller to bring the mtm up to around ear level would be the way to go.

with the 2512 driver, you could have a high sensitivity full range cab.



with dual drivers, even in the big cab, 100 watts doesn't exceed xmax (which i assume is geometric).

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post #9272 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 12:50 PM
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At the cost of making up kits that big, why wouldn't people just pay a local guy or home depot or some place to do the cuts for them? A used table saw is cheaper than the shipping on big kits like these. Or a friend or relative with some shop equipment? I understand the CNC cut baffles, but the rest is just a box.
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post #9273 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:01 PM
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How about a compact floor stander/stand-mount with a AE TD-12H. The cabinet for the woofer could have a similar size and shape as the Basslines with a SEOS 15 mounted on top of the cabinet?


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post #9274 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

At the cost of making up kits that big, why wouldn't people just pay a local guy or home depot or some place to do the cuts for them? A used table saw is cheaper than the shipping on big kits like these. Or a friend or relative with some shop equipment? I understand the CNC cut baffles, but the rest is just a box.


Tux, are you serious?? Get some employee @ home depot who does not give 2 f@#ks about cutting your cabinet compared to CNC cabinets?? You put all this design into your speakers and you want me to complete the speaker with some yoyo because it is too expensive to ship?? Come on...is this a business or what?? If people are asking for flat packs, you have no idea why??

No one wants some crappy piece of **** cabinet compared to a CNC cut flat pack!!! It is way harder than you think IF I want quality cabinet to reflect your wonder speaker design...Just give me the flat pack and done with!!!

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post #9275 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

At the cost of making up kits that big, why wouldn't people just pay a local guy or home depot or some place to do the cuts for them? A used table saw is cheaper than the shipping on big kits like these. Or a friend or relative with some shop equipment? I understand the CNC cut baffles, but the rest is just a box.
I'm a fan of having tower designs with just baffles available. I agree that shipping these really cuts into the value of the kit.
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post #9276 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:05 PM
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At some point the skill and tools are what makes DIY less of an option for some folks. Unfortunately with all that Erich has done, it's also attracted people that only want as much performance for as little money as possible. I don't think any of that is why this endeavor was started.

I'm not the first to point this out nor will I be the last.
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post #9277 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post


Tux, are you serious?? Get some employee @ home depot who does not give 2 f@#ks about cutting your cabinet compared to CNC cabinets?? You put all this design into your speakers and you want me to complete the speaker with some yoyo because it is too expensive to ship?? Come on...is this a business or what?? If people are asking for flat packs, you have no idea why??
No one wants some crappy piece of **** cabinet compared to a CNC cut flat pack!!! It is way harder than you think IF I want quality cabinet to reflect your wonder speaker design...Just give me the flat pack and done with!!!
Dude, chill.
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post #9278 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post


Tux, are you serious?? Get some employee @ home depot who does not give 2 f@#ks about cutting your cabinet compared to CNC cabinets?? You put all this design into your speakers and you want me to complete the speaker with some yoyo because it is too expensive to ship?? Come on...is this a business or what?? If people are asking for flat packs, you have no idea why??
No one wants some crappy piece of **** cabinet compared to a CNC cut flat pack!!! It is way harder than you think IF I want quality cabinet to reflect your wonder speaker design...Just give me the flat pack and done with!!!

I haven't used HD to cut anything for me in the past, personally, but I've seen reports on the forum that it went ok for other people. Maybe not. I dunno. The panel saw I've seen used at my local HD is all precise and digital. The yahoo could be asleep and it would cut straight.

Personally, I build it all. But if I could get the baffle easy enough, I'd spend the money on that part. But a 5 cuft flat pack is like ordering sheet goods over the internet. Much more economical to go to the hardware store and cut it up myself.

Not everyone has a table saw, but used ones are cheap and most people probably know someone who would let them use their's. If someone around me needs some tools let me know. I have a pretty well outfitted shop. We can cut boxes in less than an hour I bet.

I'd rather see Erich invest his time in getting awesome parts built, like compression drivers, waveguides, cross overs, etc. But I'm just one opinion. Erich gets to decide what he'd like to spend his money on wink.gif
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post #9279 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I'd rather see Erich invest his time in getting awesome parts built, like compression drivers, waveguides, cross overs, etc. But I'm just one opinion. Erich gets to decide what he'd like to spend his money on wink.gif

This!
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post #9280 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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"At the cost of making up kits that big, why wouldn't people just pay a local guy or home depot or some place to do the cuts for them? A used table saw is cheaper than the shipping on big kits like these. Or a friend or relative with some shop equipment? I understand the CNC cut baffles, but the rest is just a box."

tux, that's not the worst idea actually...maybe plans / baffle / drivers / crossover parts...makes more sense for the big cabs.

it is mostly the baffle that folks would be concerned about botching up.

and just like the marty subs, I'm sure that a cut plan that minimizes cuts could work. mdf stock is 49" side, so using that for the cab height could hit a lot of designs without any additional cuts.

i dig it tux!

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post #9281 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

At some point the skill and tools are what makes DIY less of an option for some folks. Unfortunately with all that Erich has done, it's also attracted people that only want as much performance for as little money as possible. I don't think any of that is why this endeavor was started.

I'm not the first to point this out nor will I be the last.

I guess for me, this place has gone from DIY of all types of subs and speakers to AIY what ever Erich makes the easiest and cheapest. I'm happy to see new faces around here that put veneer on a speaker cause they know how to do that (like Chalugadp and others), but how many people are showing up, gluing together a box, and disappearing. The pride of DIY is dwindling if it's all about flat packs and a bargain. Where are all the build threads of SEOS designs like NicksHitachi's curved speakers? I understand if someone doesn't have the tools, doesn't know how to build it, or what ever, but that's not what this is about. Sorry, but this doesn't apply to those types of people. This is about awesome performance. And I'm the kind of guy who designs budget speakers saying this. Take a guy like fatshaft who doesn't have tools or XO assembly knowledge, he still went out and did what he could and asks questions when he doens't know. Is that so hard? If someone wants an MTM using the AE TD12S with a BMS4550 CD that's a 50" tower with ports out the back and curved sides, THEN BUILD IT YOURSELF!

If this is all about business, then it isn't DIY. I don't have any problem with diysoundgroup going for profit and being a business. I think it should. But then it ain't really what this place is about. It's something else.

* So ya, I agree John Dean smile.gif
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post #9282 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:34 PM
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There are sorta 3 groups. The AIY crowd, the full DIY crowd (design and build) and the semi-DIY ground (build or design). That's ok. Getting the XO right is the real trick. No fancy enclosure will make up for a bad XO. Personally, I think we have tons of nice XO designs out there (but never enough :P), but very very few who are in the speaker building (enclosure) craft. I'd actually like to see more of that. I see lots of people building "marty" subs, but the truth is, I find these to be functional, and not quite "eye catchers."
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post #9283 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:35 PM
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Everybody gotta start somewhere. smile.gif
Flatpacks just make it easier to "Get Started".
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post #9284 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:40 PM
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AIY is the reason I’m here, but DIY will be why I stay. I’ve bought a few flat packs so far, but have been picking up tools along the way. A couple clamps here, a brad nailer there… eventually I’ll be able to fully build my own cabinets.

If it wasn’t for the AIY kits I would still be using headphones.
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post #9285 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

There are sorta 3 groups. The AIY crowd, the full DIY crowd (design and build) and the semi-DIY ground (build or design). That's ok. Getting the XO right is the real trick. No fancy enclosure will make up for a bad XO. Personally, I think we have tons of nice XO designs out there (but never enough :P), but very very few who are in the speaker building (enclosure) craft. I'd actually like to see more of that. I see lots of people building "marty" subs, but the truth is, I find these to be functional, and not quite "eye catchers."

I think for many the sub is a stand that there mains sit on. For others there not ready/able to do veneer work. As far as curved builds like funk audio , that's a tonne of work if your making one or two subs. I could do it but not worth my time for me. Most of the time were watching in the dark. I don't have a show home either.
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post #9286 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

At the cost of making up kits that big, why wouldn't people just pay a local guy or home depot or some place to do the cuts for them? A used table saw is cheaper than the shipping on big kits like these. Or a friend or relative with some shop equipment? I understand the CNC cut baffles, but the rest is just a box.

Well said. If you can't get a simple box built then your not really a DIY type person.
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post #9287 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:47 PM
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I hope my comments don't sound like I'm against AIY, because I'm certainly not and I hope that's clearly evident based on my support of diysoundgroup. I just think asking for huge flat packs is unreasonable and at that point I say Do It Yourself. I'm very thankful for the members who come here because DIY is accessable through AIY and then stick around. It makes the community bigger and better.
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post #9288 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:51 PM
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I fail to see why there seems to be no business plan around flat packs. If you can build the cabinet yourself, then you probably are not too interested in flat packs. But for those of us that are AIY, CNC flat packs are a godsend, especially when they are designed to the speaker kit exactly. I can only speak for myself but i am not looking for any bargains. It just makes no sense to me to not offer flat packs because it is too expensive to ship. I can see more of an inventory problem when ordering CNC flat packs as I am sure they want a minimum order and this would therefore require cash up front and some kind of warehouse for inventory. Made to order with exact shipping cost would solve this problem...

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post #9289 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Personally, I build it all. But if I could get the baffle easy enough, I'd spend the money on that part. But a 5 cuft flat pack is like ordering sheet goods over the internet. Much more economical to go to the hardware store and cut it up myself.

 

I've only read about half this awesome thread so far, but as a newb contemplating the DIYSG kits and wishing for a tower-sized baffle, can I ask what may be a stupid question?

 

Can ya' just build the box as tall as ya' want, the width of the baffle, then glue on an extension?

 

It's MDF already, so it's going to be painted anyway.  PL + clamps + trimming / sanding / bondo / maybe a backing block should make it look pretty seamless, shouldn't it?  (And if it's not seamless, that's why they sell trim. ; ))  Or is that dumb?  If that would require a different crossover (?), say, could that be incorporated in the kit instructions?  ("If you want to build a 3' tower, add two ports and use this [circuit board inhabitant(s)] instead [from PE to reduce strain on DIYSG].  Sorry, no substitutions on kits:  You'll have leftover parts.")

 

Also, tuxedocivic, while I generally agree with and understand your position above re: difference between DIY vs. AIY, don't discount how much of a different perspective you have with your incredible expertise and experience.  There's a HUGE gulf between "just design the speaker that you want!" and "build a known-good speaker from a community-developed package."  I would suggest that the benefit of welcoming, encouraging even, the "AIY" crowd brought in by DIYSG is that many of us might start off there, learn a bit, get more confident, and wind up falling rapidly down the rabbit hole to DIY addiction!  Or, at least, hanging around to help the next round of newbs, freeing you experts to work on more interesting challenges.  The cost of a one-and-disappeared would seem to me to be small... but convert one in ten to the hobby and the hobby has a big win.

 

Hey, maybe that's a way to help cover costs:  "If you don't have a login with more than [x] posts to [DIY/DIYSG-friendly audio forums], there's a 15% newb tax to make up for your not contributing to the community.  Get with the program!" 

 

Also, more generally while I'm de-lurked, if I can provide some humble feedback as a newb hoping to get into this, longing after a pair of SEOS horns:  While the kit photos are certainly well shot, it's pretty hard to get a sense of scale / size / difference.  They're almost too clinical.  Can I suggest some "family photos," and maybe a gallery of assembled speakers?  And some comparative information in the description (or links to design threads)?  Or, at least, making sure overall dimensions are listed in the "Additional Information" tables, for both the baffle and design-spec box?  I hesitate to make any suggestions at all, as Erich H has done *incredible*, *unimaginable* amounts of work, from what I've read... but I'd be happy to try to help if I could!

 

Now back to lurking... and gazing lovingly at all the various choices... and being all "Bewildered Newb" at differences....

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post #9290 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:53 PM
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AIY is the reason I’m here, but DIY will be why I stay.

 

Or, you know, that.  Exactly that.

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post #9291 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 01:57 PM
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I guess it is just as valid for someone who wants an XO and baffle, but build a fancy box, as it is for someone to get a flat pack with drivers, and design their own XO.
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post #9292 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:00 PM
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It just makes no sense to me to not offer flat packs because it is too expensive to ship.

It kind of does make sense, though:  The cost of shipping is literally prohibitive, when the alternative is "take a plan to a local cabinet maker or handyman or neighbor or friend," and that alternative might well be cheaper than just the shipping for kits.  I know I'd throw a couple boxes together for a friend if he just volunteered a six pack and to keep me company.

 

And, further, if cost really isn't an issue, it's greener, and has a better result, and is probably easier, just to take plans to a good cabinet shop.  

 

I can see that it might be a waste of Erich H's / other contributors' time to design, build, pack and sit on products that make very little sense.

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post #9293 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:18 PM
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As a noob to DIY/AIY, I can tell you flatpacks and assembled crossovers are what got me started here. I'm already thinking about building more speakers, however, before I've even finished my first... smile.gif

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post #9294 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:25 PM
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It kind of does make sense, though:  The cost of shipping is literally prohibitive, when the alternative is "take a plan to a local cabinet maker or handyman or neighbor or friend," and that alternative might well be cheaper than just the shipping for kits.  I know I'd throw a couple boxes together for a friend if he just volunteered a six pack and to keep me company.

 

And, further, if cost really isn't an issue, it's greener, and has a better result, and is probably easier, just to take plans to a good cabinet shop.  

 

I can see that it might be a waste of Erich H's / other contributors' time to design, build, pack and sit on products that make very little sense.


One of the forum members is making the Martysub flat packs and I have ordered one including shipping to my doorstep for a grand total of...$290 Canadian!!!

How is "shipping literally prohibitive"?? I was originally looking at getting a complete 5.1 JTR home theater system for...$7000 US!!! this does NOT include shipping...You are absolutely right that shipping, taxes and duty on a 5.1 JTR system to Canada...would be prohibitive...

Now upon finding diysg, i cant believe that we are even having this discussion on flat packs being too expensive to ship!!! Buying anyone of EricH's speaker kits is a bargain as i know that they will perform great. But the problem is...I have no DIY skills to build a cabinet from scratch!!! At least give me an option and if shipping is too expensive then too bad for me...

Now since I have been on this forum, it seems like half the people would love flat packs for ALL of diysg speaker kits. This is a very solvable problem instead of just looking at it as a pain in the ass!!! This is a business problem...If you only look at it in DIY terms, then obviously it makes no sense to ship big flat packs...But as you go to more high end speakers that cost more dollars, i think the expectation for easy to assemble cabinets is only going to increase for anyone that is an AIYer

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post #9295 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:31 PM
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I'm going to interrupt (on something that I was part of) and say, lets bring this AIY/DIY discussion to another thread and return this one back to DIYSG discussions smile.gif
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post #9296 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:33 PM
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This is a business problem...If you only look at it in DIY terms, then obviously it makes no sense to ship big flat packs

There. Right there. As far as I know at this point, this isn't a business, this is DIY. If Erich wants this to be a business, then he can listen to his customers. But right now afaik he's helping the DIY community. And as a member of the DIY community I would NOT like him to use up his limited space, his limited group buy funds, his limited time, and limited shipping abilities on big hunks of MDF. Because the DIY in me wants those limited resources spent on CDs, waveguides, and what ever else helps the DIY'er.
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post #9297 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:50 PM
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Hmmm...sounds like a perfect solution would be...outsourcing...so that diysg can continue to do the all DIY things you love and hold dear while make the outsourcing of flat packs on a for-profit basis IF a good business case can be implemented...just a suggestion. No matter what, my dollars will be going to DIYSG and not JTR!!!

EricH...keep up the great work

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post #9298 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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post #9299 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 04:33 PM
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This thread went off on a tangent quickly. biggrin.gif

As stated in the other flat pack thread, there is a little money added to those because someone helps wrap them up. In the future I will be getting flat packs made up for every model that is offered on the site. There WILL be bigger speakers and flat packs done as well, I was just saying that they are kind of expensive due to shipping weight and packing material.

Not sure about the AIY thing. But to me, if I built the speaker, it's DIY, even if it's a CNC cut box. That was a big goal for me when this all started. Heck, that's actually what initially got me into this with the Anarchy tapped horn and Overnight Sensation flat packs. The only reason there aren't more flat packs is because there were 10's of thousands of dollars dropped on the SEOS-10, SEOS-15, compression drivers, and everything else just a few months ago.

But there will be flat pack options for everything as soon as I can get it done. If you look on the site and count up how many models there actually are right now, you'd be surprised at just how much work has actually been done,or will be done very shortly.
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post #9300 of 11707 Old 02-26-2014, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

and will be done very shortly.
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