Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 322 - AVS Forum
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post #9631 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:20 PM
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Usually what I see in speaker lines as they get more expensive from the same company is more drivers, bigger drivers/cabinets and higher wattage.
Much easier for most people to understand than flatter frequency response and better ts parameters...
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post #9632 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Interesting thought. Maybe offer a 12/15 (the V1 as it has been dubbed) size for the Fusions, and a 15/15 (V2) for the Alpha?
+++

I know we're all trying to run Erich's "hobby" for him, but I see products for practically everyone, every size, and at every price point.

The answer to the question nobody asked me rolleyes.gif I think a good model would be to have a Fusion series "family" which fills out a complete 5.x or 7.x speaker set. Then offer the Alphas for those who want more and don't mind paying the extra.

I know a lot of you guys are filling out theater room setups and you simply buy/build what is needed, but when I started a year ago I wanted a nice modern $500 5.1 AVR that would match up nicely to speakers the AVR could power. To me that was L/C/R at about $200 each, and surrounds $200 pair. That is $1,300 for a 5.0 living room setup, and you still need a sub. Once a "basic" setup is matched, the buyer can upgrade or downgrade from there.

I think of it as the McDonald's model. They offer 50 different kinds of food, but most of their profit comes from french fries and soda.

This model wouldn't suit a lot of the power users who frequent this forum, but it might make it easier for new comers to DIY to get into the game who just want a burger, fries and a Coke. Just a thought. smile.gif
Totally agree...again and much easier to compare with these non-exclusive goals:
Karma 5.1 smaller room budget oriented smaller cabinets
Fusion 7.1 average size room medium size cabinets
Alpha 11.1 large size rooms large cabinets higher wattage more expensive drivers
Just suggestions a few suggestions
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post #9633 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:34 PM
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First let me state that for me nothing is wrong with diysoundgroup speakers . I own them , recommend them , love them. The only thing that doesn't really exist yet is a true alpha line. I own the minions and there great , but if I had to choose i prefer my.fusion mtm which is almost the same price.

The alpha zephyr to me isn't an upgrade over the tempest for.those who have good subs. The alpha models to me right now are the ae12tdm driver with a seos 12. You can order the parts but there isn't a model for sale with preassembled xovers. Just a guess on my part but if there was a ae zephyr with everything for 500-550 a speaker it would be a hot seller. Just my two Canadian cents worth (1.9 cents)
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post #9634 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post


I'm not sure why people have a hard time with the waveguide line ups. It's exactly the same as any other speaker company. Polk has a cheap line up, mid priced, and higher end. They use prefixes like TSi for cheaper, Rti for mid priced, and Lsi for higher priced models. I call them Karma, Fusion, Alpha.


Just curious, how would you list all of these different speakers?

I can answer that! (Dave raises hand)

It's because, Erich, you are not marketing your product to maximize profits, like Polk does. The whole purpose of the (making up numbers here) $50 Polk speakers is to bring you into the store. Then when you get there, for "only" another $20, you can get the mid-size model! And THAT is the speaker Polk really wants to sell you, because they only make $10 profit for each cheapie they sell, and they make $30 per speaker in the mid-price line.

You don't sell cheapies, and you don't market for profit. Even though I know you have the Karma line, it's not a loss-leader for you. It's a quality product, and its purpose is not to drive the buyer into the next higher price bracket.
+++

I'm not sure what you mean by "listing" all of the different speakers. (edit: I just saw Lemans' post, directly upstream. He states it much better than I.)

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #9635 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:38 PM
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Sorry Donny, but our 2 Canadian cents are only worth 1.8 cents us today!!! Lol
I workin capital markets in Toronto...
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post #9636 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:43 PM
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Lemans24, it sounds like you only want to see 3 speaker models. I don't think you're following what was originally decided on a long time ago in this thread.

We wanted cheaper models in multiple sizes: Karma Line.

We wanted average priced speakers than most people could afford: Fusion Line.

We wanted higher end speakers for those that wanted high end drivers: Alpha Line.

They're all good speakers, just separated by costs.

I honestly don't see that as hard to follow at all.
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post #9637 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Lemans24, it sounds like you only want to see 3 speaker models. I don't think you're following what was originally decided on a long time ago in this thread.

We wanted cheaper models in multiple sizes: Karma Line.

We wanted average priced speakers than most people could afford: Fusion Line.

We wanted higher end speakers for those that wanted high end drivers: Alpha Line.

They're all good speakers, just separated by costs.

I honestly don't see that as hard to follow at all.

How many designs did you have at the time, in terms of SEOS waveguides, the 8" and the 12"? And how many do you have now, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, and 24? It just seems to me that due to your success, life is MUCH more complicated than it used to be. cool.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #9638 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Lemans24, it sounds like you only want to see 3 speaker models. I don't think you're following what was originally decided on a long time ago in this thread.

We wanted cheaper models in multiple sizes: Karma Line.

We wanted average priced speakers than most people could afford: Fusion Line.

We wanted higher end speakers for those that wanted high end drivers: Alpha Line.

They're all good speakers, just separated by costs.

I honestly don't see that as hard to follow at all.
Not at all Eric...you have many size speakers and I like all of your choices.
I just think that your lines could be separated by more than just price.
I am new to your site for sure but like I said, usually when speaker lines get more expensive,
It's an easier sell when I can actually see that I am getting more for my money.
I understand what you are saying and it's great that you offer so many choices.
My suggestions are not absolutes but only points on a spectrum...
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post #9639 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:57 PM
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If I was the average Joe looking to get into diy, I could see how the site can be confusing. I would have 2-3 bookshelf sized speakers ranging from a small 6" woofer to a 10". The 6" driver model would be the cheapest speaker. Next line of speakers would be bigger speakers, higher quality 10" driver and another model with a 12" driver. Top of the line model would be a 15" driver and 3 ways.
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post #9640 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

The only thing that doesn't really exist yet is a true alpha line.

The alpha zephyr to me isn't an upgrade over the tempest for.those who have good subs. The alpha models to me right now are the ae12tdm driver with a seos 12. You can order the parts but there isn't a model for sale with preassembled xovers.

Some speakers have been temporarily taken down because I'm hoping for a new site to be coming soon.

The Alpha Line isn't done yet. The only reason the 12" is there was because Jeff started with that woofer and it was worth putting somewhere. It will be changed later. The Alpha Line was always intended to be the last ones worked on because it was going to cost more.

The SEOS-10, SEOS-15, and different CD's have only been around for a few months. You have to give it time, and also realize that stuff listed in the last sentence was about $50k. This is a huge undertaking. I'm guessing much more than some realize which kind of stinks.
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post #9641 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post

I just think that your lines could be separated by more than just price.

But you still haven't said exactly how. wink.gif

Realize that there are 3 lines of speakers with each line possibly having a 4" up to 15" size. They all sound good.

Go......
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post #9642 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 11:07 PM
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Karma, Fusion, and Alpha lines. Always made sense to me.

JBL Pro Cinema
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post #9643 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 11:15 PM
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When your buying a product online with little chance to sample it I think the onus is on the consumer to do , due diligence and research on that product . The diysoundgroup website lists all the stats needed to decide what you need. The frequency range , xover point , sensativity , cost of parts , and size. I don't think their is anything that's confusing about which speaker to purchase.

Budget , room size , cosmetics , and timbre matching may all play a role in deciding . What makes the tempests an easy selection is the 25 reviews to see. It like ebay , I don't buy from a seller unless they have 50 plus sales and 99% rating or higher .
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post #9644 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

But you still haven't said exactly how. wink.gif

Realize that there are 3 lines of speakers with each line having a 4" up to 15" size. They all sound good.
Ok let's look at your Karma line. If I was looking for cheap speakers, I would most likely looking for a 5.1 system with smallish mains and surrounds that all match together so that it would be very easy to choose from.
If I was looking a
t your alpha line, I would probably know what I want and would want some higher performance mains speakers that were different from the surrounds and probably much larger in size as space may not be a large concern.
With low price people want more guidance which translates to fewer more discernable choices.

Go......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

But you still haven't said exactly how. wink.gif

Realize that there are 3 lines of speakers with each line possibly having a 4" up to 15" size. They all sound good.

Go......
I am sure they all sound good but it should be easier to pick out a full matched set of speakers from the same line for mains, center and surrounds.
Eric, you are now a victim of your own success...right now you only have one complete line which is keeping you very busy...
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post #9645 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 11:35 PM
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Lemans24, you're giving your ideas based only on what YOU 'would most likely' be looking for in a certain price range and size. What about everyone else? This is a community effort that needs a lot more choices. The goal was laid out over 1.5 yrs ago to have cheaper, mid, and higher priced speakers so everyone could enjoy something in their price range and in the size and output they needed. That's what I've been sticking to. Sure the site looks a bit crazy right now. That's because there's a lot of work going on and there hasn't been enough time to organize some things. But none of that changes the 3 pricing tiers.

By the way, you still haven't given a road map for how I should divide up and list the speaker kits. wink.gif There will be 3 lines with each line possibly having 4" - 15" sizes. How would you do it?



By the way, there are no completed lines yet. biggrin.gif
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post #9646 of 11675 Old 03-14-2014, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

When your buying a product online with little chance to sample it I think the onus is on the consumer to do , due diligence and research on that product . The diysoundgroup website lists all the stats needed to decide what you need. The frequency range , xover point , sensativity , cost of parts , and size. I don't think their is anything that's confusing about which speaker to purchase.

Budget , room size , cosmetics , and timbre matching may all play a role in deciding . What makes the tempests an easy selection is the 25 reviews to see. It like ebay , I don't buy from a seller unless they have 50 plus sales and 99% rating or higher .
It's not confusing at all...it's just not complete. I want to get a fusion-15 based mains and since I want a center channel that matches there is quite a few choices...
Which one do I choose?? In my mind a smaller speaker with the same waveguide as the fusion-15 is an easier choice than all the other speakers offered.
All I am asking for is a suggested matched set for each speaker line... Not asking for less speaker models at all and not asking for only matched speaker sets just more guidance than price.
Eric, it would be good to know what speakers are going to what line based on a published roadmap that obviously you can change for whatever reason.
I am buying the fusion-15 and eventually more speakers for a 11.x home theater.
My preference is to buy all the speakers from the same company
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post #9647 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Lemans24, you're giving your ideas based only on what YOU 'would most likely' be looking for in a certain price range and size. What about everyone else? This is a community effort that needs a lot more choices. The goal was laid out over 1.5 yrs ago to have cheaper, mid, and higher priced speakers so everyone could enjoy something in their price range and in the size and output they needed. That's what I've been sticking to. Sure the site looks a bit crazy right now. That's because there's a lot of work going on and there hasn't been enough time to organize some things. But none of that changes the 3 pricing tiers.

By the way, you still haven't given a road map for how I should divide up and list the speaker kits. wink.gif There will be 3 lines with each line possibly having 4" - 15" sizes. How would you do it?



By the way, there are no completed lines yet. biggrin.gif
Eric I did clealy give you a suggested roadmap:

Karma: 5.1
Fusion: 7.1
Alpha: 11.1

These are just suggestions only...I am not trying to run your business and yes I would rather speak regarding my thoughts but I am very open to listening to all and any other suggestions from the community. You clearly have communicated a pricing strategy as your main difference between your 3 lines. I agree with that...
I am just making a suggestion that when you looking at home theater speaker usually but not exclusively, you want a matched set.
To me at least, this is an easier way to pick speakers.
If I make a suggestion,how else am I going to put this suggestion to you?
A complete speaker line would only be relative to mains, center and surrounds, which is what I meant by complete.
Your fusion line offers a complete line of mains, center and surround speakers in choice only.
I did not mean complete in the absolute sense...
Eric, I am just a customer...what do I know??
I run a small consulting business and my clients give me all kinds of suggestions especially ones I don't agree with!! Lol
Keep up the great work...
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post #9648 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 06:36 AM
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Lemans24, you've missed the biggest point of all, which is why you're having trouble with the line ups. So far, DIY Sound Group hasn't been run as a business. It was only suppose to be a place to list a bunch of speaker kits and help with group buys. That site was never designed to be run as a business for profit. There was no intention to design loss leaders to get people in the door, market, advertise, or focus in on a few kits that would make someone money because making money wasn't the point. You need to go back and read more in this thread to see how this all came about. wink.gif

The site is simply a place to list a bunch of DIY kits. The only reason the waveguides took over was due to the SEOS and people wanting a decent number of options. I run a business and really only cater to one market........because I need to make money. But the DIY Sound Group site needs to cater to all groups in the community......and doesn't need to make money.

If that changes (soon), things might be different.
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post #9649 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post



This would be perfect for what I want. Please bring these to market!
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post #9650 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 08:17 AM
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Erich, you can call them the poop plus 2 line and I don't think anyone would care. Just keep offering the kits!!!!
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post #9651 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 08:27 AM
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[/quote]

If I was comparing this speaker with the sentinel and the tempest could I make these conclusions.

It has benefits of seos 15 (compared to my fusion mtm with eos 8) with dual 8's so sensativity will be high. Will have less midbass crossed over at 70-80 then sentinel/tempest .
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post #9652 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Lemans24, you've missed the biggest point of all, which is why you're having trouble with the line ups. So far, DIY Sound Group hasn't been run as a business. It was only suppose to be a place to list a bunch of speaker kits and help with group buys. That site was never designed to be run as a business for profit. There was no intention to design loss leaders to get people in the door, market, advertise, or focus in on a few kits that would make someone money because making money wasn't the point. You need to go back and read more in this thread to see how this all came about. wink.gif

The site is simply a place to list a bunch of DIY kits. The only reason the waveguides took over was due to the SEOS and people wanting a decent number of options. I run a business and really only cater to one market........because I need to make money. But the DIY Sound Group site needs to cater to all groups in the community......and doesn't need to make money.

If that changes (soon), things might be different.
Eric, if I had any trouble with your lineup, do you really think I would making any suggestions at all??
I love your website, all of your speaker kits...I feel like a kid in Disneyland when browsing your website
I just want a center speaker and surrounds that match the fusion-15.
Looking forward to the seos-15 tmm speaker that you will be offering soon and hopefully a sealed 12"/DNA 360 combo too.
I know you are only offering a bunch of kits and I am only asking for some more kits...
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post #9653 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post


If I was comparing this speaker with the sentinel and the tempest could I make these conclusions.

It has benefits of seos 15 (compared to my fusion mtm with eos 8) with dual 8's so sensativity will be high. Will have less midbass crossed over at 70-80 then sentinel/tempest .[/quote]
This will make an excellent center speaker for those that don't have room for a tempest/sentinel center speaker. The center is where I clearly want to hear voices and less mid bass would be a plus in this case...
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post #9654 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 09:40 AM
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My small vote says if you are going to make a seos 15 Alpha - make it as 'alpha' as you can........
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post #9655 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Lemans24, it sounds like you only want to see 3 speaker models. I don't think you're following what was originally decided on a long time ago in this thread.

We wanted cheaper models in multiple sizes: Karma Line.

We wanted average priced speakers than most people could afford: Fusion Line.

We wanted higher end speakers for those that wanted high end drivers: Alpha Line.

They're all good speakers, just separated by costs.

I honestly don't see that as hard to follow at all.

Makes sense to me and this is how I like it. It's by far the simplest way to differentiate between products.

Edit: As for Leman's posts. I think the issue he is having a "set" of speakers. He wants the Fusion 15 line, but wants matching surrounds/center channels as well. I think what you're missing out on Leman's is that speaker designs aren't done. There most likely will be the speaker you want EVENTUALLY. It just has to be designed and then organized by EricH for release. Most likely there will be the speaker you want that matches everything, you just have to wait.

A couple of months ago I would have purchased Tempest and Alch's for a full surround sound. There wasn't a center channel option for the Tempest. Now we have the Fusion 1099s coming and the Fusion 6 for nice surrounds. There will eventually be the full set you want but you have to wait for the designs to come through. Right now it seems that you're interested in the Fusion 15s which well leaves you only with the option for LCR Fusion 15s. As for the surrounds you choose? That's really your own choice. There isn't a reason for EricH to say "Oh the Fusion 15s go with Fusion Tempest surrounds and Fusion 6 highs to make the perfect 7.1 system!"(or whatever), because you really can just pick your own surrounds based on your needs. I'd prefer Fusion 6 surrounds in most instances but I can understand how some people may take Fusion 8 surrounds, or even larger depending on their usage scenarios.

There may not be center channels for each line/size but I think they'll eventually get there as EricH has been adding new speakers for awhile now and Speaker Designers have continued to add great designs.

When you go to Klipsch and you want a full matching 7.1 speaker system, they take a couple years, design it, then release it all at once. Here, you're getting designs the second they're done and read to be released. You aren't waiting years between speaker generations but are getting constant updates so it's just a different way of doing things.
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post #9656 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

But you still haven't said exactly how. wink.gif

Realize that there are 3 lines of speakers with each line possibly having a 4" up to 15" size. They all sound good.

Go......

Yes, he did. He said EXACTLY how, further upstream in Post #9632:
Quote:
Totally agree...again and much easier to compare with these non-exclusive goals:
Karma 5.1 smaller room budget oriented smaller cabinets
Fusion 7.1 average size room medium size cabinets
Alpha 11.1 large size rooms large cabinets higher wattage more expensive drivers

Just suggestions a few suggestions
+++
Edit: Whoops, sorry, I saw later that this was answered in the thread, and in the same way.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #9657 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Yes, he did. He said EXACTLY how, further upstream in Post #9632:

Not really, he was only explaining 3 systems: 5.1 for Karma, 7.1 for Fusion, and 11.1 for Alpha.

There's going to be at least 16 models. What should be done with the other 13? wink.gif

His idea is to have a small set of speakers for the Karma (assuming 8"). Left, right, center, and surrounds. What happens to the 6", 10", 12", and 15"?

Lemans24 said the SEOS-15 should only be in the Alpha line. So if the Alpha line only uses a SEOS-15, then how does his Alpha line only include an 11.1 system?
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post #9658 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Yes, he did. He said EXACTLY how, further upstream in Post #9632:

He did state it but I really don't think it makes much sense to do it like that vs how EricH is currently doing it.

In such a naming scheme, the Fusion 6, Alpha 8, Alchemy 8, Karma 8 would all be in the "Karma line" because they're small. Just because a speaker is small doesn't mean all of a sudden it's budget.

In that naming scheme The Alpha 8 is just lost as to which line to put it in. Like I previously posted, most of Leman's issues with the product naming currently will be fixed as more speaker designs are finished. He wants a "set" of speakers and even if we renamed it to that way it still wouldn't work because there isn't a center channel done yet for "large cabinet speakers" or even "Medium size" yet. Just the smaller Fusion 8 MTM is listed and the Fusion 1099 Center Channel is coming soon as well.

I don't agree though with segmentation based on how many channels you plan to use though, based solely on Speaker size, or based on how many watts you throw at the speaker. The Karma 15 shouldn't be renamed into the Alpha line just because it's big. There would essentially be ZERO way to list the current Karma 15 in that speaker lineup and I don't understand why a speaker being very inefficient would mean that it deserves to be in the top of the line.
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post #9659 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 10:26 AM
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I'm a fan of the good, better, best scenario you've laid out Erich.

5.1, 7.1 or 11.1 doesn't have anything to do with an actual product line. I'm sure there are DIY folks that would like an 11 speaker set up in the entry level as well.

I think what some people are asking for are matching surrounds for the various lines to create, say, the "Tempest 7.1 kit". With so many options within each line I'm sure that would prove to be a huge undertaking.

I would think that most gravitate towards the Fusion line. Human nature usually makes us pick the one in the middle. smile.gif
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post #9660 of 11675 Old 03-15-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tential View Post

He did state it but I really don't think it makes much sense to do it like that vs how EricH is currently doing it.

In such a naming scheme, the Fusion 6, Alpha 8, Alchemy 8, Karma 8 would all be in the "Karma line" because they're small. Just because a speaker is small doesn't mean all of a sudden it's budget.

In that naming scheme The Alpha 8 is just lost as to which line to put it in. Like I previously posted, most of Leman's issues with the product naming currently will be fixed as more speaker designs are finished. He wants a "set" of speakers and even if we renamed it to that way it still wouldn't work because there isn't a center channel done yet for "large cabinet speakers" or even "Medium size" yet. Just the smaller Fusion 8 MTM is listed and the Fusion 1099 Center Channel is coming soon as well.

I don't agree though with segmentation based on how many channels you plan to use though, based solely on Speaker size, or based on how many watts you throw at the speaker. The Karma 15 shouldn't be renamed into the Alpha line just because it's big. There would essentially be ZERO way to list the current Karma 15 in that speaker lineup and I don't understand why a speaker being very inefficient would mean that it deserves to be in the top of the line.
Your answer is quite correct about the general aspect of what should be in each line. Where this breaks down is what if we were to offer a really high performance speaker in the alpha line like a seos-18 with ba-750 cd a be dual 12" woofers. Does it make sense to over the same speakers with only difference with less expensive components??
As you go up in performance, why restrict all of your designs based on relative cost only??
I am not saying that 6" should only go in karma and 15" in alpha but if you are going to do an alpha anything why make it look just like your karma with less expensive components??
Do you really want only one axis of differentiation to your speaker lines??
That really is my main point: as price goes up, I think the design complexity should go up including crossover, cabinet size, multiple drivers and something that Eric has already ruled out, active crossovers. A rainbow of choices with more axis of differentiation between the speaker lines than just price...
I love what diysg is doing...not wait for JTR speakers to waiting for more Seos based speakers is quite fine with me.
Like I keep saying, just throwing out suggestions not making crazy demands...
Love all the responses so far!! May not agree with them but I do listen to all of them
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