Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 337 - AVS Forum
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post #10081 of 11072 Old 05-04-2014, 09:09 PM
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Seems easy to navigate to me smile.gif just need the money to click "add to cart" lol
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post #10082 of 11072 Old 05-04-2014, 09:12 PM
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With all this talk about the SEOS 15 I thought maybe there were some WG's available. SO that was the confusion. Erich if I can help in any way I would. Let me know. biggrin.gif
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post #10083 of 11072 Old 05-04-2014, 10:09 PM
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Ok i got a chance to look at the 88 special in the home theater section of the site.

The size/height of this speaker is fairly compact after all and will actually fit under my screen.

If it is sitting close to the floor, is it better to move the midrange drivers to either side of the Seos?

Should I build the box to have the face of the box angled up toward the listening position? Since the box is only 18" tall and I have 22" of height available, perhaps I should raise the box 4" off the floor by making the box bigger?

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post #10084 of 11072 Old 05-04-2014, 10:16 PM
 
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UYou don't really want to do mtm most of the time if you cant avoid it due to packaging concerns from what i gather.

Any changes to the box would man a new crossover will berequired and probably new Ports etc. just build the box normally and put a couple angled blocks under it to meet your needs.

Wait till you see what I'm going to have to do to pt a tempest in above my TV. I have a great wife lol.
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post #10085 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

(respectful snip!)

Website is very confusing to me.

I agree. I don't want to be critical, but I fully admit to being analytical to a fault, so forgive me if I come across as too critical.

The way I see it, the website is catered to what the SELLER has and not what the BUYER wants, from an organizational standpoint.

For instance, when Mr. Newguy goes to the website, he knows he wants some speakers for the living room and how much he wants to spend. He does not know what a "Fusion" is, and he certainly doesn't know what a SEOS is. Mr. Seller knows that an Alpha is top dog, but all Mr. Buyer knows is that the Alpha costs $50 more than the Fusion, but doesn't know if he can hear the difference in sound.

Mr. Newguy can read all 10,000 posts on the "Hey Guys" thread to educate himself on why the SEOS is desirable, but most people don't want to do that much work. I think most Newguys just want to know if the SEOS is better than the Klipsch speakers he can get at BestBuy. It's a fair question. But now, turn the page.

Do you know how I got the perfect sized speakers for my living room? After several PM's back and forth to Erich, he basically said "you should try the Fusion 10's, they sound great." I gave up on all my OTHER ideas (I was confused about what to buy) and simply went with Erich's suggestion on faith.

He was 100% right, and I don't think I would have bought them if left to my own research. I just didn't know what the various products were, and believe me, I read EVERYTHING, including the then-9,000 post "Hey Guys" thread! wink.gif

In the last few hours, there is a new section in the DIY Soundgroup site that says "Home Theater." This is a good change, but terms still need to be defined. For Average Guy there are "home theater" speakers all over Sam's Club for $600 that includes an 8" sub and 5 satellite speakers. For the same term I know DIY SG means LARGE speakers for a LARGE sound in dedicated home theater rooms. I think that term is defined in the new section, so that is good, but across the speaker lines, it is unclear what speakers are best for what application.

I know Erich is overwhelmed with a large number of projects, including the "project" of running his own landscaping business! smile.gif Having been a small business owner in a previous life, I know what it's like to do everything, and how hard it is let go of control over certain parts of the business, web site design and maintenance, customer support, speaker design, shipping, finance, banking, and even what seems like a small thing (but it's not) the naming of speakers can be overwhelming with all the other things going on.

I get overwhelmed with simply building the speakers and plugging them in. smile.gif I hope the feedback is helpful.
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post #10086 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 05:03 AM
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My confusion was also in regards to current "buys," going on and in stock items. So when I go to an item I dont know if I can pre order them or when the item will be in stock if I cant order them.

If the above was reference to me I have followed this thread from the beginning. I asked Zilch many times about designs before Erich then started this thread later on. I am not complaining about the site. JUST trying to understand so I dont go filling up Erich's inbox with useless questions. Either way I will be looking at buying a SEOS 15 when they are available.biggrin.gif
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post #10087 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeme View Post

UYou don't really want to do mtm most of the time if you cant avoid it due to packaging concerns from what i gather.

Packaging concerns? Not sure I follow

 

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post #10088 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 05:26 AM
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The website would be more conducive to beginners with a little education for example about when you should use an MTM speaker and when you should not.

Sometimes it isn't clear what the max SPL of a specific design will yield. Is that the max SPL on the freq response curve or is the response curve just demonstrating linearity?

I think the website is fine if you already know exactly what you need but can be confusing with all the various options otherwise.

On the other hand, anyone who makes it to your website and is even considering DIY speakers is generally no idiot...
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post #10089 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Ok i got a chance to look at the 88 special in the home theater section of the site.

The size/height of this speaker is fairly compact after all and will actually fit under my screen.

If it is sitting close to the floor, is it better to move the midrange drivers to either side of the Seos?

Should I build the box to have the face of the box angled up toward the listening position? Since the box is only 18" tall and I have 22" of height available, perhaps I should raise the box 4" off the floor by making the box bigger?

The layout of the baffle is an integral part of the design. The crossover is partially designed to optimize how each driver interacts with the others in the specific layout. If you wanted to change the layout, you'd need a new crossover designed.

You could build the box in a shape that angles it up towards the listening position, but you should stick to the specified volume of the enclosure. For example, I will be making my Tux-1099's into towers but will be using the original baffles and just extending the bottoms. The base of the speaker will just be a sealed box that is separate from the lower woofer's box so that it doesn't affect the design and crossover. Beyond that, the only other risk with the floor placement is the floor bounce/other negative room interactions that may result with the woofers being so low to the ground. smile.gif
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post #10090 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

The website would be more conducive to beginners with a little education for example about when you should use an MTM speaker and when you should not.
Why? That's what this thread is for. An horizontal MTM, especially with a large center-to-center distance, is a terrible design due to lobing.

Mike
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post #10091 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Why? That's what this thread is for. An horizontal MTM, especially with a large center-to-center distance, is a terrible design due to lobing.

I agree and partially disagree, all at the same time! biggrin.gif

You are right, that this thread has fantastic people posting here, knowledgeable and helpful.

Where I would gently disagree, is how in the heck does Mr. Newguy know that "Hey guys, we need some rallying here" has ANYTHING to do with buying DIY speakers?

Hey Guys is a three and a half year-old thread with 10,000 replies. It has some great archival information, and some good info in general, but the real problem with the Hey Guys thread is there is no good way to SEARCH for information. It's like the Windows HELP files, it's a great place to go for information if you already know the answer.

A relevant comment by Mr. Blazar (summarizing here by me) was that us old farts who post here already know what they want and navigate easily to find what they want. That is true, but we are the 1%'ers. Do you think it would be better to sell to the 1% who are "in the know", or the 99% who need an easier solution? The 1%'ers are well taken care of, it's the 99% who need some more help.

Soichiro Honda in the 1960's came out with a little, friendly looking 50cc motorcycle called the Honda Super Cub when most REAL bike riders rode 1200cc Harley's, Triumphs, BSA's and Indians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Super_Cub

At a time when bikers were bad arse and tough and the image was Marlin Brando in the Wild Ones riding wild through the town, Honda's sales pitch appealed to the rest of potential bike owners, "you meet the nicest people on a Honda." When questioned about not building "real" motorcycles, Mr. Honda said he would rather sell motorcycles to the 99% who do NOT own a motorcycle, rather than the 1% who do.


Food for thought.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #10092 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 09:44 AM
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Erich has said time and time again that he could use help with info. Someone wants to volunteer their efforts to write up a "why not a horizontal MTM" article etc to be hosted on the FAQ section, by all means.
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post #10093 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Why? That's what this thread is for. An horizontal MTM, especially with a large center-to-center distance, is a terrible design due to lobing.
Actually, lobing is not the issue. Lobing only occurs close to the source; get a few wavelengths out and it's not there. This shows why:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/diffract4.htm

The issue with a horizontal MTM is dispersion. The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the dimension of the source; as the source is made wider the horizontal dispersion angle is made narrower. Since an MTM has the midbasses separated by a tweeter the width of the midbasses placed horizontally is more than twice that when they're placed vertically, so the horizontal dispersion angle will be less than half that when placed vertically.
There's also the matter of comb-filtering, which will occur if the midbasses are separated more than a wavelength. That's easily fixed by simply putting them as close together as is possible and by crossing over to the tweeter at a frequency below where they're a wavelength apart, but many commercial horizontal centers fail to do that.

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post #10094 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Should I build the box to have the face of the box angled up toward the listening position? Since the box is only 18" tall and I have 22" of height available, perhaps I should raise the box 4" off the floor by making the box bigger?

The easiest would be to just put the box on a riser and tilt it up.

If flush w/the screen, ideally the tilting would be by pulling the bottom of the speaker forward rather than the top of the speaker backward, as otherwise sound could reflect off the back and bounce around.

If you don't want any part of the speaker forward of the screen plane, you could tilt the top back and put some sound-absorbing foam or felt above the speaker in the gap between it and the screen.

A way to minimize the gap, but more complicated, is to cut the baffle between the woofers and WG and only tilt the top back, which is what I did:



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post #10095 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 12:58 PM
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That front end sure cleaned up nice, Noah! (I like a clean front end). smile.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #10096 of 11072 Old 05-05-2014, 01:32 PM
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Thanks, my housecleaner is really something smile.gif

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post #10097 of 11072 Old 05-06-2014, 06:20 PM
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Can anyone tell me the packaging size of the Fusion 12 tempest and the Fusion 15Sentinel?

I am still trying to find out which speaker design I want to build for outdoor pa. I have to figure out shipping and then go from there. I see that both designs are not available but depending on shipping and my budget hopefully they will be available then.
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post #10098 of 11072 Old 05-06-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

"Snip"

At a time when bikers were bad arse and tough and the image was Marlin Brando in the Wild Ones riding wild through the town, Honda's sales pitch appealed to the rest of potential bike owners, "you meet the nicest people on a Honda." When questioned about not building "real" motorcycles, Mr. Honda said he would rather sell motorcycles to the 99% who do NOT own a motorcycle, rather than the 1% who do.


Food for thought.

While what you say here is true. Erich is really not selling anything. Well he is selling things, but not to make a profit. Just trying to break even. FWIU he does this for the community and because he enjoys it and has actually has lost money. Actually pretty crazy and hard for most to even comprehend. Not the same thing, but I do service for all my neighbors friends and such. Pretty much never charge for labor and many times pay for the part myself. I have persons tell me all the time that I should charge money, i don't want to and do not need to. I think it make them feel uncomfortable with the way they are.
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post #10099 of 11072 Old 05-06-2014, 07:31 PM
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I've only really lost money on the group buy stuff from Poland. But that's from cancelled orders. Eventually I will get that stuff posted somewhere and I'm sure someone will eventually get them. The next group buys on that stuff will have to be different and I'll probably get a deposit before I order it. I must have 40-50 waveguides and horns sitting here.....so yes, that was pretty stupid of me to do.

As mentioned, there is extra added in on flat packs because I've had to get help to package up some of them up.

Parts of this are changing soon because as it was discussed over a year ago......it's not sustainable the way it is right now.
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post #10100 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 06:48 AM
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Is it crazy to be hopeful that someone is working on a ...66 Special? :-D Seos12 + FaitalPro 6FE200/6FE100 ?
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post #10101 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 07:42 AM
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66 Special had been worked on over a year ago. I thought that was posted somewhere, I'll have to see.
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post #10102 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

66 Special had been worked on over a year ago. I thought that was posted somewhere, I'll have to see.

Since we're all wishing here.....What about the 66 ultra-special? Seos12/DNA360/AE TD6

I know there was a design with these but I think it used some other CD.
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post #10103 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 08:13 AM
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I don't believe the TD6 goes low enough.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2576
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post #10104 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

Since we're all wishing here.....What about the 66 ultra-special? Seos12/DNA360/AE TD6

I know there was a design with these but I think it used some other CD.

I'm pretty sure that's already been done too.
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post #10105 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've only really lost money on the group buy stuff from Poland. But that's from cancelled orders. Eventually I will get that stuff posted somewhere and I'm sure someone will eventually get them. The next group buys on that stuff will have to be different and I'll probably get a deposit before I order it. I must have 40-50 waveguides and horns sitting here.....so yes, that was pretty stupid of me to do.

As mentioned, there is extra added in on flat packs because I've had to get help to package up some of them up.

Parts of this are changing soon because as it was discussed over a year ago......it's not sustainable the way it is right now.

Why not just add 5$ to every order to start paying yourself back ? And charge "true costs" for things so you don't take a hit personally. If you need to pay someone to help you with something about it, and you pay them 10$ an hour to do it and it take them 30 minutes to do it then I see no reason not to just make the item $5 more expensive to cover it. At the end of the day - if you took a magic wand and swept over the entire DIY soundgroup line and added $10 to everything across the board the appeal would still be the same, and the sales would be the same. I personally have no problem with it.

I can tell from the time I have spent here that you are an ethical guy, and a person of high character. The things you do are greatly appreciate by everyone, including myself. I consider it a privilege to be able to order from DIY sound group. That's why if something takes a few more days to get shipped out, I am inclined to just accept it and be happy with what it is. I suggest others should also do the same. If you were running a business officially and for profit (with profit margins built in) I might expect a higher level of service because I am paying for it- but last I checked I did not find any other place online or otherwise where I could obtain what the DIY sound group is offering (what you are providing) for the same costs, products, and services. Beggers should not be choosers I guess is what I am saying here.

I hate to think you get punished for your generosity and efforts to the point you lose money because others cancel on you. Even if you re-list or resell the extra items and recoup your costs there is no reason at all you should have to bother with the extra effort and trouble required to do it. Personally I would never order something and then cancel knowing the real arrangement and how it effects you and others. I'd be inclined to take it anyways even if I changed my mind and then resell it on my own to save you the trouble. Not everyone is the same, or fully understands the difference between a real business and the DIY soungroup and group buy efforts that you spearhead. Taking a deposit is more than appropriate I think, I doubt anyone would complain. If they do let them go buy something else somewhere else then. You would not want the trouble anyways. I'm a business owner too, and I've always worked in sales and it took me a long time to realize not all business is good business. Some people and some deals or customers you just are better off without, they are never going to be worth the trouble. Having a substantial deposit (like 50%) up front will probably make 99% of the abandoned orders you get stuck with go away and seems more than reasonable to me.

The balancing act is you want to encourage people to pre-order and requiring more deposit (or any deposit) does not encourage or support people pre-ordering stuff. But to sugar coat the issue in an effort to support the highest level of pre-ordering but not requiring the appropriate deposit amount only leads to more trouble later in cancelled orders. It's like allowing people to pretend to be a real customer when they are not. The solution is probably to make the cost higher (add $20) for non pre-orders as a buffer and make the pre-orders more in line with actual costs (or even $5 under true cost and subsidized by the $20 added to non pre-orders) This would lead to more pre-orders because the discount is more substantial and solve the issue of not supporting pre-orders enough without the problems of cancelled orders. If someone cancels an order and the deposit is non-refundable then use that cost to pay yourself for the trouble of having to re-list and resell that item at a later date.
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post #10106 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 08:39 AM
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Erich any chance the 1099 will eventually get a flatpack for the enclosure ? pretty pretty please
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post #10107 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

66 Special had been worked on over a year ago. I thought that was posted somewhere, I'll have to see.
Are you by chance thinking of the BUC?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1440063/diy-seos-for-ht-upgrade

Edit: more hunting turned up
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0
and
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0
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post #10108 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 09:29 AM
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There was a design done with the small A&E woofers, but there were some issues with something. Can't recall what right now. There are other shorter centers coming.
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post #10109 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 09:34 AM
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There is apparent issues with the TD6 is the dip around 900hz which I think John says doesn't show up on this infinite baffle tests. Either way, really looking forward to what is released in the next 6 weeks since that is when I get to send you my $$$ :-D
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post #10110 of 11072 Old 05-07-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

There is apparent issues with the TD6 is the dip around 900hz which I think John says doesn't show up on this infinite baffle tests. Either way, really looking forward to what is released in the next 6 weeks since that is when I get to send you my $$$ :-D

Yep. I've read about those issues. I'm more concerned with the efficiency being pulled down with the design than the dip at 800. I guess I'm not in any hurry anyway.

I'd really like to see some new designs rather than more variations/shapes of the same things.
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