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post #991 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 11:19 AM
 
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can someone point me in the direction to learn how to read what the chart shows
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post #992 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 11:32 AM
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I will try to explain.

The top plots are for the horizontal axis measurements, measurements are done at 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, etc and then added together to great the polar response (Left), the right plot is all the individual measurements showing how the FR response changes when we measure off axis.

The left graph is called the polar response plot. The left index scale shows the horizontal axis degress and the right index scale shows the db drop (color coding). It will show if a driver beems (Narrow red color). The larger the red section the more the driver holds its directivity off axis. We look for uniform response shape...smooth red section, we also can see where drivers loose directivity.


The bottom graphs are for the vertical axis measurements.

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post #993 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 11:54 AM
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That's maintaining horizontal directivity to 700Hz??
Impressive. So when can they be ordered?

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
XSim -free crossover designer and simulator http://libinst.com/Xsim/XSimSetup.exe
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post #994 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 11:56 AM
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Welcome back Bill!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #995 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:16 PM
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Thanks, Penn.

(I'm sitting here wishing we could get Zilch's take on this polar plot)

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
XSim -free crossover designer and simulator http://libinst.com/Xsim/XSimSetup.exe
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post #996 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:19 PM
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yeah, he is missed daily!!


As a comparison, we could look at some other Polar plots that Geddes has stored on his website/program

http://www.gedlee.com/publish.htm

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post #997 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
SEOS-15 measured with BMS4538.
You do not have the BMS4550 on hand?? I would love to see that one since it goes lower then the 4538 and I own it.

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post #998 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:24 PM
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^^^ Same Here

While the FR will need some help up high (not sure of the natural FR and roll-off of the BMS CD used in the test), there doesn't look to be any major anomalies from mouth diffraction. The directivity looks pretty stellar, basically right on target.

Thanks Erich and Jzagaja for making this happen.
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post #999 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
SEOS-15 measured with BMS4538.
I noticed that this budget BMS 4538 is spec'd out 30k. Is the data presented possibly limited by the mic or something else?
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post #1000 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:33 PM
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There is really no reason to measure out to 30KHz. 15KHz is pretty much all we should care about.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #1001 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:43 PM
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Just grabbed the BMS 4538 Factory FR Graph, the dB scale was already cropped out in their PDF, but looks to be 2dB per line. Seems most of what we're seeing in the sloping HF is a nature of this CD, besides our little blip @ 8kHz it tracks very well.

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post #1002 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:46 PM
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This is sound card limit - 48kHz for Digigram 440VX. Mic used - Bruel Kjaer 4149+2610. I confirm 30kHz.

Unfortunately I don't have 4550.
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post #1003 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
That's maintaining horizontal directivity to 700Hz??
Impressive. So when can they be ordered?
bwaslo, I can bring one to you for testing once they get shipped to me.

Autotech said they should be ready to send the pallet next week sometime. We're still working out the shipping arrangements, but it's almost figured out.
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post #1004 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post
You do not have the BMS4550 on hand?? I would love to see that one since it goes lower then the 4538 and I own it.
I agree that the BMS 4550 looks to be a much more interesting partner than its little brother on paper. As for freq above 15k, not all may miss it but then again some do...

Nice looking unit.
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post #1005 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 01:31 PM
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The info has been uploaded for the SEOS-15:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/Ellipticals.htm

I might change that around a little bit and move the E-JMLC-1000 to it's own page so people can view it better. But for now, this should help.
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post #1006 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorstad View Post

I agree that the BMS 4550 looks to be a much more interesting partner than its little brother on paper. As for freq above 15k, not all may miss it but then again some do...

Nice looking unit.

Yes Some do That would be the 2% of the population that can even hear above 18Hz and that is only when people are younger??

I say 30KHz is meaningless....its just noise!!

Let just say that the world of horns/CDs have the idea of making the response upto 15KHz really, really good instead of screwing all that up just in the name of "golden ears". Yes to get 30KHz you will be compromising lower frequencies.

If someone cares about > 15KHz, they should waste $$$ on super tweeters and XO with the horns.

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post #1007 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes Some do That would be the 2% of the population that can even hear above 18Hz and that is only when people are younger??

I say 30KHz is meaningless....its just noise!!

Let just say that the world of horns/CDs have the idea of making the response upto 15KHz really, really good instead of screwing all that up just in the name of "golden ears". Yes to get 30KHz you will be compromising lower frequencies.

If someone cares about > 15KHz, they should waste $$$ on super tweeters and XO with the horns.

How do you expect to hear the breathless airiness, precision, and electrodynamics of your $1,000 triple silicon composite insulated twisted jewelers silver hand terminated cables and lifters (TSCITJSHT cables) without a 30kHz CD or 40kHz whizzer.
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post #1008 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 03:52 PM
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Why does the SEOS-15 roll off the low end ~300 Hz sooner?

The polar response does look very nice though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

Just grabbed the BMS 4538 Factory FR Graph, the dB scale was already cropped out in their PDF, but looks to be 2dB per line. Seems most of what we're seeing in the sloping HF is a nature of this CD, besides our little blip @ 8kHz it tracks very well.



Noah
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post #1009 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Why does the SEOS-15 roll off the low end ~300 Hz sooner?

The response does look very nice though.

Have to ask Jzagaja what their testing procedure was and if they used a protection cap, or if they used a HP filter, and what the value was?

The directivity is still strong down lower, just rolled off in the FR as you stated.
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post #1010 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes Some do That would be the 2% of the population that can even hear above 18Hz and that is only when people are younger??

I say 30KHz is meaningless....its just noise!!

Let just say that the world of horns/CDs have the idea of making the response upto 15KHz really, really good instead of screwing all that up just in the name of "golden ears". Yes to get 30KHz you will be compromising lower frequencies.

If someone cares about > 15KHz, they should waste $$$ on super tweeters and XO with the horns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

How do you expect to hear the breathless airiness, precision, and electrodynamics of your $1,000 triple silicon composite insulated twisted jewelers silver hand terminated cables and lifters (TSCITJSHT cables) without a 30kHz CD or 40kHz whizzer.

More Cow Bell!

Even from a marketing standpoint... it would be wise to offer additional data from a more competent 1" driver to show the performance possibilities....
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post #1011 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 05:47 PM
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Wow, those measurements look great. These should be great xover'd anywhere from 800-1500hz. The SEOS profile seems to not have any dips as well.

I wouldn't fret much over testing with a comp driver capable of lower extension. It won't show radical differences in the measurements. They are obviously losing some precision due to gating below 1khz anyway.

Jzagaja, job well done.
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post #1012 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I wouldn't fret much over testing with a comp driver capable of lower extension. It won't show radical differences in the measurements. They are obviously losing some precision due to gating below 1khz anyway.

What makes it obvious?

I thought it was feasible to get gated measurements down to ~200 Hz.

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post #1013 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 06:42 PM
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I would assume he chose a gate that allowed him to get accurate polars and it appears to lose resolution around 2khz and has little resolution around 1khz. That is fine but you won't see anything radically different if you put a 4550 or DE250 on there that can play down to 800hz. I have a feeling those measurements will come soon.

What I get from this is that it is nicely CD down to at least 1khz in the horizontal. It even looks good down to maybe 1.2khz in the vertical. That is one of the benefits of the bigger WG.
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post #1014 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 06:46 PM
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So how do we go about ordering some of these or has the window passed?
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post #1015 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 09:00 PM
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I suspect the resolution as shown is correct. Losing resolution because of short windowing (gating) tends to make the response seem better (higher) when LF response tails off because the spectral splatter fills in the region. The dropoff between 500Hz and 1kHz wouldn't show like that with a too-short window.

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
XSim -free crossover designer and simulator http://libinst.com/Xsim/XSimSetup.exe
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post #1016 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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for those who don't know, a primary goal in this kind of design is to get each off axis frequency response plot to be parallel with the one above it. if they are all parallel, then one can use equalization to change the 'power response' of the speaker equally and everywhere.

noah, horn width may be the factor for which you are looking. the conical holds pattern to a lower frequency with a wider horn and a smaller, if any roundover. the horn here has a large roundover, so has less width to hold pattern control. that said, the lines are all pretty much parallel so you can eq it however you like! well, let's say down to 1khz or so. ;-) the horn doesn't appear to give up the ghost until just under 900hz.

jza, and all others who helped bring this one from a dream into a finished product (and extra props to erich for helping this along)...ABSOLUTELY AMAZING WORK GUYS!!! this is a home run. this is a f_cking home run! it should be a great match for either a 12" or 15" driver. folks will want to know how they can get in on the action...does this work with the econowave deluxe crossover or something like that. the b&c driver, the jza/avs-community horn, now there needs to be an enclosure (flat pack erich?), a woof and a dividing network...maybe wayne can rejigger the crossover on the 4pi optimized to go toe to toe with the geddes summa. so many options, i hope that one of them comes through...

absolutely massive props again guys...you did it!

[for the grand slam, 18" seos, 1.5" throat, bms 4555 ;-), but that'll come later]

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post #1017 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

So how do we go about ordering some of these or has the window passed?

The current waveguide group buy has filled a pallet. There will be another one though. The goal was to first get the prototypes to a few guys here and get some designs going. I spoke with Chris from Zilchlabs today on the phone. There are some things being worked out on that end, but the balls are rolling in a few different directions to make sure this all works out for the best.



About 2 months ago, someone was working on the same basic WG design after it was discussed here, but using a different material. I'm not sure if they ever finished it or not. I know they had some initial build issues that they were trying to resolve. My guess is that if they do get it done, they'll be cheaper, but probably not as good looking as these. Even if they perform the same, it would be hard to beat the nice look of the one posted by Jack.
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post #1018 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

.....the b&c driver, the jza/avs-community horn, now there needs to be an enclosure (flat pack erich?)

If you can get me the correct sized cabinet, I have no problems getting an estimate from the CNC company. I just don't know what size people want it to be. LTD02, you sir have a mission! Let me know what dimensions and stuff like that.
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post #1019 of 11031 Old 02-17-2011, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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i'll work on it, but the major factor is public acceptance of the design. this is where z. kicked butt. his econowave appealed to vox populi. zilch loved the lower fs 14" drives, such as the le14h-3 for more full range systems, but he did suggest to me, once upon a time the 2206h for a thx type main. when one considers that such would have more power to weight than the venerable 2226h, zilch's suggestions comes into clarity...so to honor mr. z., 2206h in 1 cubic foot tuned to 55hz w/a 4" port 8.5" long, good bracing, and at least 2" of fiberglass around the walls. there may be better, but this one is 95% of the way home for most folks. can some allowance be made for using dual woofs in an mtm design in order to get 97% of the way home? crossed in around 1.2khz to the jza-avs horn. ;-) this wouldn't be a cheap build, but whatever really worth having is cheap? ;-)

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post #1020 of 11031 Old 02-18-2011, 01:00 AM
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Gate used 3.5 msec. Below OB project with rectangular OS.
LL
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