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post #10261 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 07:48 AM
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They use different woofers, different crossovers.


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post #10262 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 09:37 AM
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Well the next time the 1099 is in stock I am ordering 3 of them. I leave the diysg search page open on my phone so I can quickly check a few times a day, lol. I don't want to miss out on them any longer. I want to compare them to my Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands that were $3000. The 1099 will go in the theater with an 80hz crossover to the sub.

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post #10263 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post

I doubt anyone will take me up on it ("Honey, you're not really gonna send $x00s worth of speakers to a stranger, are you?!" among other... odd... elements of the offer), but I'm sincere, and I've met some great people via the innarwebz over the years.  This forum, in my short time lurking / learning, is -so- helpful and generous that I can't help but want to pay back.  Maybe there's someone in the area who has an apartment and a total lack of clamps and power tools.  Maybe there's someone intimidated by Ikea stuff but eager to get big speakers.  I'd be happy to help, in exchange for getting to hear them in my (horrible, general-purpose) room first, after we're done!


And, hey, it's hard not to volunteer given all the -tremendous- amounts of work others 'round here do!

So, yeah.  Ya' wanna build some big speakers (esp from the flat-packs), and don't have a place to put them together nor any tools to do so, but live somewhere near Annapolis-ish?  PM. What the heck, ya' know?

Now, back to more productive discussion OT for the thread.....

[ ... now, come on, Karma 10.... come on, Karma 10!  ; ) ... ] 

It's a great offer. Especially for newbies like myself who would like to build a speaker with someone experienced.

If there was someone in the Philadelphia Area that would build a speaker with me I'd probably have ordered my Volts already. That's my next purchase after I finish this subwoofer build.
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post #10264 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 04:53 PM
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Alpha minions ....
I have had these speakers for over six months now and my opinion has changed a bit. Until recently I really liked them but didn't love them. For movies they were great but music just good. I'm using them as mains until I can build some new ones. (Waiting for jbrowns gtg where I can hear a bunch to compare)

I have heard the minions in my room and in jbrowns. Without eq the minions are a bit bass shy from 100 to 250, a little too midrange strong in the 400 to 1000 range , and a little treble light in the 3k to 6k range. When listening to a couple of hours of music only 75% of the songs would be nailed. I have the emotiva umc200 so I tried different eq settings but was never fully happy.

A week ago I tried some different settings. I already had bottom and top boosted but it was the midrange that needed work. The setting that was right for my room was lowering 450hz by 3dbs q of 5, raising 550 by 1.5 q 15, lowering 800 by 2.5dbs q of 3, raising 950 by 1 q 17.

Rew wasn't a help because eq flat sounds awful. Ideally the speaker sounds great with no eq. Jbrowns noessis 228s would sound good in a public washroom, there that good. The reason I post this is to show that sometimes eq can make a big difference to some speakers. I think if the crossover was tweaked a bit the minion could be really special. It is now in my room.
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post #10265 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 09:46 PM
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I think some designers try to make the response as flat as possible and others design them to sound the way they like right out of the box. There's likely a good argument for either case and different situations.
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post #10266 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 09:48 PM
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No doubt crossover is hardest part of speaker design. That's what makes Jeff bagby and Dennis Murphy so special.
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post #10267 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 10:32 PM
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I do know the original Alpha-8 crossover was not the best it can be. I did redesign the crossover a few months ago when I was working on the Alpha-8 MTM, the updated crossover does help tame the midrange but I still have this nagging feeling the low end needs to be redone. Both times I worked on the crossover were over the winter and I don't trust what I can get for clean indoor measurements below 500hz or so. I just have not had time to look at it or when I do I get distracted with other things.
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post #10268 of 11167 Old 05-25-2014, 10:47 PM
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You have a lot of speakers on your plate Matt. For the price I paid the minions were a great buy. After hearing joes noessis I wanted a lighter more spacious mid range. I was able to get much closer to that sound I wanted with eq. No there not as good as the jtrs but listening to music for several hours this weekend I enjoyed every song.

What my main point is that sometimes a little eq,or room treatments can really help. It took me probably 20 hours of tweaking over a month to get it right. And that's right for me. My minion with eq now sounds very close to my fusion mtm with less eq. I marvel at you Matt and all the speaker designers. Takes a lot of courage to create an item so scrutinized. smile.gif
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post #10269 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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"The setting that was right for my room was lowering 450hz by 3dbs q of 5, raising 550 by 1.5 q 15, lowering 800 by 2.5dbs q of 3, raising 950 by 1 q 17."

q15 and q17 are extremely narrow notch filters. are you sure that is what you used?

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post #10270 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 06:02 AM
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I was just gonna ask that LTD. I doubt those are audible.
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post #10271 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 06:08 AM
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BTW, Jeff B designs for flat anechoic, although he sometimes uses a bbc dip. Don't confuse anechoic with room. Flat room response is not good. Flat anechoic is good.
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post #10272 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

Well the next time the 1099 is in stock I am ordering 3 of them. I leave the diysg search page open on my phone so I can quickly check a few times a day, lol

 

LOL.  I have the opposite problem:  I've seen the Elusives 3-4 times, but have barely a Karma budget... for which I keep refreshing with hope in my heart! : )

 

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If there was someone in the Philadelphia Area that would build a speaker with me I'd probably have ordered my Volts already. That's my next purchase after I finish this subwoofer build.

 

Volts have a flat-pack cabinet, right?  The barrier to entry there is pretttttty low.  I wonder if it would be an interesting experiment to build something with a "how few tools / how little space do I *really* need?" angle?*  But, I bet if you can build a sub, you can certainly put together a Volt kit... maybe the only difference is needing to assemble the XO, and I bet someone on here would do it for a small fee?  Or, you know, ship 'em to me and I'll bolt 'em together for you, for a small "but I get to hear them first" fee -- B'more isn't -that- far away. ; )

 

Go for it!  If you have any trouble, start a thread... this has to be the most generous and helpful community on the 'net....

 

* suddenly having thoughts about a F4Q4 center + flatpack with a "how hard is it -really-?" photojournal... hmmm...

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post #10273 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post


Rew wasn't a help because eq flat sounds awful. Ideally the speaker sounds great with no eq. Jbrowns noessis 228s would sound good in a public washroom, there that good. The reason I post this is to show that sometimes eq can make a big difference to some speakers. I think if the crossover was tweaked a bit the minion could be really special. It is now in my room.

Your EQ change sounds like the typical 'smiley face curve' added to a flat speaker that many people like. But if the Minion had an actual crossover tweak to sound great in your room, and match that EQ you just added, it might sound absolutely horrible in my room. wink.gif

Every speaker response changes when put into one room, then a different room. No speaker can break the laws of physics and sound good in every room no matter where they are placed.

My guess is if you listen to any speaker for the same time you've listened to those Minions, you will eventually put some EQ to it. If your speaker sounds great with no EQ added, you're lucky.....75% because of your room placement and LP.


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post #10274 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post

LOL.  I have the opposite problem:  I've seen the Elusives 3-4 times, but have barely a Karma budget... for which I keep refreshing with hope in my heart! : )


Volts have a flat-pack cabinet, right?  The barrier to entry there is pretttttty low.  I wonder if it would be an interesting experiment to build something with a "how few tools / how little space do I *really* need?" angle?*  But, I bet if you can build a sub, you can certainly put together a Volt kit... maybe the only difference is needing to assemble the XO, and I bet someone on here would do it for a small fee?  Or, you know, ship 'em to me and I'll bolt 'em together for you, for a small "but I get to hear them first" fee -- B'more isn't -that- far away. ; )

Go for it!  If you have any trouble, start a thread... this has to be the most generous and helpful community on the 'net....

* suddenly having thoughts about a F4Q4 center + flatpack with a "how hard is it -really-?" photojournal... hmmm...

Ya I mean I wanted to ship the crossover out to have it done, but I also want to learn because I know full well this is only the first step. After I get the Volts done and get more cash coming in I'll be saving up for the 1099 and I know eventually I'd build the Maximus if it gets done.
I think after reading up some more though I'm more comfortable and will attempt the Volts after I confirm my Polk Monitor 70s are gone. The buyer I got for them was during a heavy drinking/partying session so I need to confirm that he still wants them lol.

Tools is a biggy though. Only having 2 clamps is annoying and as for screwdrivers/power tools I have so few. In fact, I think we only have 2 screw drivers, the one of which I need is no where to be found.....
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post #10275 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 08:41 AM
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No speaker can break the laws of physics and sound good in every room no matter where they are placed.

This isn't what you're saying, but I'll say it anyways.

Although you're right, no speaker will always sound it's best in ANY room in ANY placement. BUT, a well designed speaker should sound good from 400hz and up in any well laid out room with unequal distances to the front and side walls and especially the floor, away from diffraction sources (ie. TV, subs, etc.), properly aimed at the LP (or toed past the LP if this is what the design calls for), and properly integrated with a subwoofer system if incorporated. That's the point. Saying, "well, the room screws it up anyways so we'll just design it however and the end user can fix it" is improper design as the end user is now the actual designer.

That can be a practical approach if you know the end user and know they can handle this, or a set of eq parameters are provided with the design.
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post #10276 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 08:58 AM
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BUT, a well designed speaker should sound good from 400hz and up in any well laid out room with unequal distances to the front and side walls and especially the floor, away from diffraction sources (ie. TV, subs, etc.), properly aimed at the LP (or toed past the LP if this is what the design calls for), and properly integrated with a subwoofer system if incorporated.

And rarely can that happen when a speaker is set up for home theater use.


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post #10277 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 09:10 AM
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I'm not sure about that. Doesn't seem to difficult to achieve those things. And even if they are a little compromised, eq is just fine. It's still no excuse to just say, "well it'll get messed up anyways so just throw the baby out with the bath water". Like I said, I don't think that's what you're saying, it's just an easy trap to fall into.

This isn't a knock agains the Minion btw. I bet it's designed quite well. I've seen the measurements and I've recommended the speaker many times. I'm talking in general and to chalugadp's comment. I think he has some subjective bias here that wouldn't apply to others, or his room setup is causing some change to the response that needs correction. Both of which are fine.
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post #10278 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 10:14 AM
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No subjective bias or room issues. The minion sounds similar in all four rooms that I tried it in. Also I pmd with Matt and his feelings about the speaker were similar to mine. I have spent a lot of time setting up my room and I have a decent ear. Not bass that hz good....

Remember I am not saying that the speaker is bad. Its very good and with eq in my room ssounds great. The fusion mtm sounds noticeably better when both speakers have no eq. I have tried both in four rooms.
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post #10279 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 10:26 AM
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Ok then it could be the design. I didn't mean that subjective bias was a bad thing. Some people like overly hot bass. Some people like it lean. Some people like sizzling highs. Others like them mellow. The fact that they sound similar in 4 different rooms goes to reinforce my point, that the room doesn't dramatically influence the sound of a speaker as much as some people like to think. I see this over in the audio theory forum and can't stomach it. I don't go there often because it's always the same thing: Q - I want to upgrade my polk speakers. A - Try room treatments first. Q - These speakers have no bass. A - Treat the room. Q - Here's my room response, how do I eq it? A - Hang some room treatments. It gets old. But I'm just rambling and asking for trouble tongue.gif
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post #10280 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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"...the room doesn't dramatically influence the sound of a speaker as much as some people like to think."

or, at least as not as much as some measurements would suggest!
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post #10281 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 10:45 AM
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The buyer I got for them was during a heavy drinking/partying session so I need to confirm that he still wants them lol.

Tools is a biggy though. Only having 2 clamps is annoying and as for screwdrivers/power tools I have so few. In fact, I think we only have 2 screw drivers, the one of which I need is no where to be found.....

 

Heh.  I may have bought a few things that way.  Er, I mean, "how uncouth!" ; )

 

Also, my sincere apologies:  I guess I assumed, incorrectly, that everyone has at least a collection of basic hand tools and the knowledge to use them, like the way I assume everyone can reach everything on the top shelf in the kitchen.  I shouldn't assume that, and I didn't mean to put pressure or be negative.  But -- if you're DIY-interested, and keep at it, you'll eventually wind up looking around and thinking, "where did all this come from?  When's the last time I used [some obscure tool, likely from Harbor Freight].  Good luck with your builds!  I really need to clean out the basement, come to think of it.

 

Still, with a flat-pack and a kit, it might be an interesting challenge to go at it with "how can I build this successfully using the -least- tools / accessories?"

 

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No speaker can break the laws of physics and sound good in every room no matter where they are placed.
 

 

I think this sentiment, and the way it was put, are the essence of why I'm smitten with this forum.  (a) Objectivity and not hand waving / mumbo-jumbo combined with (b) polite, but clear, corrections, instruction, wisdom sharing, etc when appropriate.  Love it.

 

This might be more appropriate for a new topic, but since this thread is kinda the Compendium Of All Things DIYSG/SEOS, I might as well try here first:  Am I correct / safe in assuming that I can make a cabinet -deeper- or -taller-  but cannot change the width of the baffle?  That is, if I needed to make the F4Q4 deeper so that, as a center, it is deep enough to support my TV stand, I'd be ok?  Or is that a terrible idea?

 

I've already rambled on enough on this beautiful day, so I'll save the blathering treatise on bias and the need for -truly- double-blind comparisons, that no one will read, for another day. ; )

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post #10282 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 10:47 AM
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"...the room doesn't dramatically influence the sound of a speaker as much as some people like to think."

or, at least as not as much as some measurements would suggest!

That's a better way to say it. Bingo!
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post #10283 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

The fusion mtm sounds noticeably better when both speakers have no eq. I have tried both in four rooms.

I could be wrong here, but I believe that's because Jeff designs the speaker to sound a certain way to him versus shooting for a flat response. I've always thought Jeff's speakers sound good 'right out of the box', while other designers might shoot for flatter response so the user can easily tweak to their liking.

In the end, EQ will help make the speaker sound the way you personally like it. But that might not be the way your friends think it should sound after they listen for an extended period of time.


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post #10284 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 11:08 AM
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I like to apply auto EQ to a speaker design, then scale the magnitude of the correction to about 1/2-1/3. This way you get some room correction, without messing too much with the original design.
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post #10285 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 02:29 PM
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Heh.  I may have bought a few things that way.  Er, I mean, "how uncouth!" ; )

Also, my sincere apologies:  I guess I assumed, incorrectly, that everyone has at least a collection of basic hand tools and the knowledge to use them, like the way I assume everyone can reach everything on the top shelf in the kitchen.  I shouldn't assume that, and I didn't mean to put pressure or be negative.  But -- if you're DIY-interested, and keep at it, you'll eventually wind up looking around and thinking, "where did all this come from?  When's the last time I used [some obscure tool, likely from Harbor Freight].  Good luck with your builds!  I really need to clean out the basement, come to think of it.

Still, with a flat-pack and a kit, it might be an interesting challenge to go at it with "how can I build this successfully using the -least- tools / accessories?"

No problems lol. And I can reach the top shelf in the Kitchen if I stand on the counter lol. If I wasn't extremely athletic, being shorter would be much more annoying. I don't have many tools at all and the ones I do have are scattered around the house. And because I'm still looking for my own place, any tools(or just anything for that matter) we do have are consistently moved away. I bought 10 HDMI cables at one point. Zero clue where they all are now lol. Could say the same for tons of things. Like if I knew where the dremel I bought was that'd be very useful right now to do some modifications to my TV stand to ensure I'm getting proper airflow there.

Hopefully if I get a full list of everything I need I can head over to Home Depot and pick up some more things today to at least get the enclosure done by the end of the week and start painting.
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post #10286 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 05:21 PM
 
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No problems lol. And I can reach the top shelf in the Kitchen if I stand on the counter lol. If I wasn't extremely athletic, being shorter would be much more annoying. I don't have many tools at all and the ones I do have are scattered around the house. And because I'm still looking for my own place, any tools(or just anything for that matter) we do have are consistently moved away. I bought 10 HDMI cables at one point. Zero clue where they all are now lol. Could say the same for tons of things. Like if I knew where the dremel I bought was that'd be very useful right now to do some modifications to my TV stand to ensure I'm getting proper airflow there.

Hopefully if I get a full list of everything I need I can head over to Home Depot and pick up some more things today to at least get the enclosure done by the end of the week and start painting.

Break fingers the next time someone steals your stuff, even if it's family.
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post #10287 of 11167 Old 05-26-2014, 09:53 PM
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My mom asked me how these speakers compare to bose: my reaction
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post #10288 of 11167 Old 05-27-2014, 04:58 AM
 
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Much like comparing a Frisbee to a cow pie. :-)
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post #10289 of 11167 Old 05-27-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeme View Post

Much like comparing a Frisbee to a cow pie. :-)
you can throw a cow pie as far as a Frisbee just ask my brother (says the guy with Bose 301s LR VC10 center and 201s for side and rear surrounds)


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post #10290 of 11167 Old 05-27-2014, 09:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post

you can throw a cow pie as far as a Frisbee just ask my brother (says the guy with Bose 301s LR VC10 center and 201s for side and rear surrounds)

Cow pie takes much skill to catch however.
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