Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 347 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10381 of 12677 Old 06-05-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by zencarver View Post

FINALLY

I'm halfway through this thread.

Back to reading...
And... DONE.

What a fascinating saga. Kudos to all involved.

One day I might have a settled living situation and access to a workspace...
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post #10382 of 12677 Old 06-05-2014, 11:21 AM
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That's a big understaking (I think)! Glad people are still reading it from the very beginning. I followed along from the beginning and could probably use a refresher. There were some very smart people posting in this thread in the early stages. Zilch, Audio Josh, Coctostan, Bill, PureBass, etc. It's a gold mine. I lived in a condo back then and never thought I'd use a big waveguide eek.gif
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post #10383 of 12677 Old 06-05-2014, 11:59 AM
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That's a big understaking (I think)! Glad people are still reading it from the very beginning. I followed along from the beginning and could probably use a refresher. There were some very smart people posting in this thread in the early stages. Zilch, Audio Josh, Coctostan, Bill, PureBass, etc. It's a gold mine. I lived in a condo back then and never thought I'd use a big waveguide eek.gif
I wanted to see how it got from point A to point B, and I figured a few pages here and there, skipping around, would satisfy my curiosity. But once I started, I thought it was too fascinating to stop. I learned more about speakers and audio in general in this one thread than in months of lurking on the rest of AVS.
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post #10384 of 12677 Old 06-05-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by zencarver View Post
And... DONE.
What a fascinating saga. Kudos to all involved.

 

It really is interesting, isn't it?  And it's a fantastic faith-in-human-kind-restoring journey, too!

 

The number of smart people contributing openly to the project as it grew and morphed with time, then the incredibly generous support by a few who really got it where it is now... very, very cool both intellectually and philosophically.  I don't even really need (and likely wouldn't benefit from) new speakers, but I want to build several pairs just 'cuz of the awesomeness of this project.  The volunteering spirit is inspirational:  If the DIYSG operation wasn't a very long day's drive away, I'd volunteer to pick orders or make sammiches or sweep the floors or something.

 

Is it odd that I'm considering reading it through from the beginning *again*, in hopes that I might better understand what was going on, now that I've been reading this forum more actively for a few months?  No doubt most of it would still be over my head, but maybe by a little less....

 

All in all, very cool.  Many thanks to all involved!  Can only imagine what cool stuff will come along next!

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post #10385 of 12677 Old 06-05-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post

Is it odd that I'm considering reading it through from the beginning *again*, in hopes that I might better understand what was going on, now that I've been reading this forum more actively for a few months?  No doubt most of it would still be over my head, but maybe by a little less....
I'm not sure I could commit to rereading the whole thing, but I'll likely go back and skim through the thread, picking out the technical info for review.
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post #10386 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 09:07 AM
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I haven't been back around this area lately. Work, family, and kids been taking up all of my time.

What happened to all the speaker kits at DIYSG? Last time I checked, there were around 15-20 waveguide speaker kits. Now, I only see 7.

Did I missed some sort of consolidation or downsizing?

Thanks,
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post #10387 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 10:03 AM
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What happened to all the speaker kits at DIYSG? Last time I checked, there were around 15-20 waveguide speaker kits. Now, I only see 7.

Transition phase is happening. The 10" woofer designs are being reworked with the SEOS-10, same with the 15" woofers.

Some designs just never got ordered, so there wasn't much reason to keep stock on those. If there isn't a flat pack option, they don't get ordered. If there isn't an assembled crossover option, they rarely get ordered. No sense is wasting resources and time on things that just sit and take up room.

I'm being much pickier about what designs go up now because this stuff takes a huge amount of time for very little feedback. Rarely do people take the time to put up reviews for the speakers or components. Some guys do and that's great, but it's very rare anymore. You can understand that over time it slowly takes away some of the incentive to push things to the next level.

Having said all of that......the 10" and 15" designs are coming. smile.gif
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post #10388 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 10:48 AM
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Thanks Erich. Make sense to me.
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post #10389 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Some designs just never got ordered, so there wasn't much reason to keep stock on those. If there isn't a flat pack option, they don't get ordered. If there isn't an assembled crossover option, they rarely get ordered. No sense is wasting resources and time on things that just sit and take up room.

I'm being much pickier about what designs go up now because this stuff takes a huge amount of time for very little feedback. Rarely do people take the time to put up reviews for the speakers or components. Some guys do and that's great, but it's very rare anymore. You can understand that over time it slowly takes away some of the incentive to push things to the next level.

Why aren't some or all of the speaker designs "open sourced" (ie. a parts list, baffle drawing, x-over schematic)? If they were, it seems like people could do the work on their own to source the parts and put everything together. If you have certain models that you do bulk purchases for and build kits for, you could just make the flat packs available for those select designs.
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post #10390 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 11:17 AM
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There are many more documented SEOS designs on the DIY sound group forum that are just that.
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post #10391 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 11:27 AM
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There's a lot of hand holding on those also. The kits eliminate a lot of confusion, but then it's more burdensome on Erich too. Seems people prefer the ikea type thing. All in one box, no guess work, just assemble.
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post #10392 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Transition phase is happening. The 10" woofer designs are being reworked with the SEOS-10, same with the 15" woofers.

Some designs just never got ordered, so there wasn't much reason to keep stock on those. If there isn't a flat pack option, they don't get ordered. If there isn't an assembled crossover option, they rarely get ordered. No sense is wasting resources and time on things that just sit and take up room.

I'm being much pickier about what designs go up now because this stuff takes a huge amount of time for very little feedback. Rarely do people take the time to put up reviews for the speakers or components. Some guys do and that's great, but it's very rare anymore. You can understand that over time it slowly takes away some of the incentive to push things to the next level.

Having said all of that......the 10" and 15" designs are coming. smile.gif

I'm documenting my build and will be taking measurements and leaving review wink.gif Not a waveguide tho frown.gif So wanted fusion 12s for the bedroom.
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post #10393 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by xjagox View Post

Why aren't some or all of the speaker designs "open sourced" (ie. a parts list, baffle drawing, x-over schematic)? If they were, it seems like people could do the work on their own to source the parts and put everything together. If you have certain models that you do bulk purchases for and build kits for, you could just make the flat packs available for those select designs.

There are many open source designs. But as you can see on the product pages, the kits end up selling for cheaper than retail.....so why would anyone buy parts for the Karma-12 on their own if it ends up costing the same as the Fusion-12 kit with a precut front baffle?

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post #10394 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 01:26 PM
 
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There are many open source designs. But as you can see on the product pages, the kits end up selling for cheaper than retail.....so why would anyone buy parts for the Karma-12 on their own if it ends up costing the same as the Fusion-12 kit with a precut front baffle?


Actually, for me, here in Canada I can find things on Amazon.ca with free shipping cheaper than some of the kits on the site if the shipping is not free (though greatly appreciated!) (and especially if comparing to the prices on P.E. and their insane shipping charges) so a parts list would be handy for us foreigners.  Crossovers are really the only thing that hold me back, so I would be inclined to order the parts for that from the legit source at diysoundgroup.com. It also reduces the chances of the crossover schematics getting out into the wild for far east production, if that is of concern.

 

As an example, http://www.amazon.ca/Eminence-BETA8CX-American-Standard-Speakers/dp/B000BBF43G/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402172537&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=emminence+8cx is the same price in CDN as the speaker through diysoundgroup and I have free shipping.  The remainder of the parts are much lighter and would be awesome to get through the website, but I understand it is more complication and becomes nearly impossible to calculate the discounts if you rely on selling kits whole.

 

Sorry if this is off topic, but shipping to Canada really does suck.

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post #10395 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 03:49 PM
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But you might be forgetting that I get those woofers for cheaper and use the saved money to help cover packaging material, Paypal fees, and "free shipping". If you remove the woofer you remove the savings, then those fees would have to be added back in. So in the end, whatever you save on the woofer gets wiped out because you'd then have to pay shipping, and the other expenses.

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post #10396 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 05:00 PM
 
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Actually, for me, here in Canada I can find things on Amazon.ca with free shipping cheaper than some of the kits on the site if the shipping is not free (though greatly appreciated!) (and especially if comparing to the prices on P.E. and their insane shipping charges) so a parts list would be handy for us foreigners.  Crossovers are really the only thing that hold me back, so I would be inclined to order the parts for that from the legit source at diysoundgroup.com. It also reduces the chances of the crossover schematics getting out into the wild for far east production, if that is of concern.

As an example, http://www.amazon.ca/Eminence-BETA8CX-American-Standard-Speakers/dp/B000BBF43G/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402172537&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=emminence+8cx is the same price in CDN as the speaker through diysoundgroup and I have free shipping.  The remainder of the parts are much lighter and would be awesome to get through the website, but I understand it is more complication and becomes nearly impossible to calculate the discounts if you rely on selling kits whole.

Sorry if this is off topic, but shipping to Canada really does suck.

No, I actually do understand :-) if there were parts lists and crossover schematics though it would be dandy. But I can read and do understand.

Sorry a tad teste drowning my thumb in pain killers.
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post #10397 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 07:36 PM
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Sorry a tad teste drowning my thumb in pain killers.

Your teste is doing WHAT to your thumb???

And what's that about pain killers? eek.gif
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post #10398 of 12677 Old 06-07-2014, 07:39 PM
 
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Your teste is doing WHAT to your thumb???

And what's that about pain killers? eek.gif

 

I guess you have a reading comprehension problem too.

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post #10399 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 08:23 AM
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There are many open source designs. But as you can see on the product pages, the kits end up selling for cheaper than retail.....so why would anyone buy parts for the Karma-12 on their own if it ends up costing the same as the Fusion-12 kit with a precut front baffle?

Perhaps they have drivers for the "obsolete" design or are wanting to build a match to speakers they built a year or three ago. Posting the obsolete (retired?) designs with a quick note about why they considered obsolete (e.g. driver NLA, improved design, low sales volume, whatever) and the current suggested replacement seems pretty easy. Also add a note that there is no "tech support" for the obsolete designs. If you want to go that way you have much more to DIY.
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post #10400 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 08:45 AM
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Perhaps they have drivers for the "obsolete" design or are wanting to build a match to speakers they built a year or three ago. Posting the obsolete (retired?) designs with a quick note about why they considered obsolete (e.g. driver NLA, improved design, low sales volume, whatever) and the current suggested replacement seems pretty easy. Also add a note that there is no "tech support" for the obsolete designs. If you want to go that way you have much more to DIY.

+1
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post #10401 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 09:10 AM
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As I see it you either appreciate the time and effort Erich and the designers do and purchases an awesome speaker for pennies on the dollar of not. Erich puts a lot of time and effort doing this for free at the expense of his normal business and has stated before 2 of his business trucks. Some of the items i.e. wave guides and drivers the group actually developed at a huge expense that is defrayed buy group buys. You can not get those parts anywhere else. He is not doing this for profit and he works with anyone who has special needs like yours off line. If all you want is a wave guide and compression driver you can get that. some times you can get advice from the designer and they will get the parts lists and crossover schematics to you but via PM and email. I do not think anyone can ask more out of some one doing all this for free.
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post #10402 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 09:32 AM
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I've handed out XOers over PM for all my designs. And I've spent countless hours helping people make decisions, wire things, choose box sizes, add helper woofers, adjust baffle dimensions, suit a design to in wall, etc. We aren't gods you won't talk to you. We do this because its fun. At least I do.

The problem with doing that, and part of why I'm laying off on just handing out schematics, is because people get confused and they ask Erich for partial kits. They don't know what parts to buy even with the schematic. So basically they need the kit. So I'm then putting together a shopping cart for them. Sorry, I'm a nice guy but if you can't do that then buy the kit. So then they go to Erich and say "hey can you sell me a pair of CDs, waveguides, and a baffle." Well, no actually because Erich pre-packs the kits and doesn't have time to put together one off orders like that. I just did that to Erich so I'm just as guilty, but hopefully he doesn't mind making an exception.

One other reason looming, is people don't respect the unwritten rules of DIY. I've had people PM me and ask if they can build my designs and sell them. There's a guy on PE who asked this about a little 2 way I did a couple years ago. It won a competition. He started by saying he'd pay me. Well I told him he doesn't have to. He just wants to build a few on the side. The design is free for him to sell. We still talk and he'd like me to do more. But that could be the exception. There's no stopping a Chinese company from buying SEOS molds and selling these designs. Boom, we'd be duped just like that. There's more wrapped up in the SEOS thing than just a little competition speaker. Big dollars for Erich. Countless hours for the designers. And a ton of emotion. As you've seen in this thread, I'm annoyed when people even come here in and out real quick just to get a deal. How much more angered would Erich be if some overseas company just snagged all these designs and went mainstream.
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post #10403 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 09:45 AM
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Mmm, sell seos and make big bucks smile.gif
I find most people on avs are really good to deal with. In selling 25 flatpacks now I haven't yet had to deal with any jerks. That doesn't mean I don't get people asking me 10 questions like their going to buy and then say , its diy, I'll do it myself. Karma seems to exist out their. Helping others does feel good.
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post #10404 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Perhaps they have drivers for the "obsolete" design or are wanting to build a match to speakers they built a year or three ago. Posting the obsolete (retired?) designs with a quick note about why they considered obsolete (e.g. driver NLA, improved design, low sales volume, whatever) and the current suggested replacement seems pretty easy. Also add a note that there is no "tech support" for the obsolete designs. If you want to go that way you have much more to DIY.

None of the Karma-15's ever sold. Very few of the other Karma models sold. The thing is, I don't believe anyone will build the old Karma-15 if the new one uses the SEOS-15. Same with the Karma-10 getting the SEOS-10. The Karma-8 will stay the same. I just took the 8 down because the other ones were getting reworked.

But basically they will all be pretty much the same, just a matching SEOS size, which requires a new crossover design. I won't mind posting the old crossovers, but I don't think anyone would actually use them.

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post #10405 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 10:05 AM
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Never understand why you would buy karma line. Really barely cheaper and if your going to diy the fusions seem to be just better.
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post #10406 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 10:18 AM
 
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Well, I feel I've been kicked out of the club.  Since there is no way to just buy the kits I was looking for through the website I emailed Erich, told him what I wanted and that I was going to be paid a little bit for my time constructing the kits.  The conversation ends here apparently.  I'm not exactly sure why but the diy crowd appears to be very offended at the prospect of making a monetary ROI, but I understand the emotional side of the investment. I offered to share in any profits (would be great, so more funds could be put back into new designs or whatever).  I'd love to do way more, but a couple here and there helping friends and family is great, and I think the point of this DIY venture.  I also can't afford to operate at a loss, so if someone wants to give me some money to perform a function for them, I let them.

 

I am not making thousands of speakers a year, a couple sets a month MAX. (though I think there is great potential for much more, but that is something for the designers and Erich to discuss).  If I'm successful in creating my amazon.ca sourced version of a volt I'll be posting up the information in case anyone would like to replicate it, gratis.  My small contribution.

 

Everyone that's come over here for a movie or a visit has been floored by the Tempests. They are simply a work of art. If something is that good, the Chinese/far east ARE going to copy it as some time in the future anyway, so why not beat them to the punch on your own terms?  Kind of funny/sad because this actually happened to a family member of mine who lost everything trying to fight in court against the company that stole their designs, and this was a commercial product. Anyone that really wants to copy the stuff from diysoundgroup is not going to give a damn about copyright infringement, or asking your opinion, and will just use puppet accounts to addresses in the USA so it won't be suspicious.

 

I really, truly appreciate the time, money and blood that has gone into this crazy exciting venture, please don't take my words as an offence, its just another opinion to consider, and you know what they say about opinions.  I can understand both sides of the coin, I'm just disappointed because the quality of the items Erich and company put out is absolutely amazing, and as such, is very likely to be emulated in a manner that is not so amazing. I'm trying to be above board and operate within the spirit of DIY.  At this very moment I have a piece in the garage I'm working on for a person in Hong Kong that is without work space, if I get $20 a pat on the back and the shipping I'll be ecstatic. (just a baffle that needed cutting).

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post #10407 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 10:31 AM
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You have to offer something that isn't there already. Why buy the kits from you at an inflated price. Assembling a speaker kit is so easy that tape will do. That's why I went into a subwoofers. No one at that time had a ported Marty flatpacks. Even with Erich's Stonehenge the cubes are still selling. Now people want the minimarty.

As for someone else doing seos... They can't compete. His prices are rock bottom. Why would anyone buy parts from China for more. If someone offered the completed speaker all done they would have to sell it for quite a bit more. If you want to build for friends just buy the kit that exists and put a nice veneer on your own flatpacks.
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post #10408 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 10:32 AM
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Well, I feel I've been kicked out of the club.  Since there is no way to just buy the kits I was looking for through the website I emailed Erich, told him what I wanted and that I was going to be paid a little bit for my time constructing the kits.  The conversation ends here apparently.  I'm not exactly sure why but the diy crowd appears to be very offended at the prospect of making a monetary ROI, but I understand the emotional side of the investment. I offered to share in any profits (would be great, so more funds could be put back into new designs or whatever).  I'd love to do way more, but a couple here and there helping friends and family is great, and I think the point of this DIY venture.  I also can't afford to operate at a loss, so if someone wants to give me some money to perform a function for them, I let them.

I am not making thousands of speakers a year, a couple sets a month MAX. (though I think there is great potential for much more, but that is something for the designers and Erich to discuss).  If I'm successful in creating my amazon.ca sourced version of a volt I'll be posting up the information in case anyone would like to replicate it, gratis.  My small contribution.

Everyone that's come over here for a movie or a visit has been floored by the Tempests. They are simply a work of art. If something is that good, the Chinese/far east ARE going to copy it as some time in the future anyway, so why not beat them to the punch on your own terms?  Kind of funny/sad because this actually happened to a family member of mine who lost everything trying to fight in court against the company that stole their designs, and this was a commercial product. Anyone that really wants to copy the stuff from diysoundgroup is not going to give a damn about copyright infringement, or asking your opinion, and will just use puppet accounts to addresses in the USA so it won't be suspicious.

I really, truly appreciate the time, money and blood that has gone into this crazy exciting venture, please don't take my words as an offence, its just another opinion to consider, and you know what they say about opinions.  I can understand both sides of the coin, I'm just disappointed because the quality of the items Erich and company put out is absolutely amazing, and as such, is very likely to be emulated in a manner that is not so amazing. I'm trying to be above board and operate within the spirit of DIY.  At this very moment I have a piece in the garage I'm working on for a person in Hong Kong that is without work space, if I get $20 a pat on the back and the shipping I'll be ecstatic. (just a baffle that needed cutting).

I haven't replied to any emails on the site since about Thursday. So maybe I missed one from you, or just haven't read it yet.

Everyone here has worked very hard on all of this. If someone buys a kit, assembles it, then sells it to a friend, I certainly don't care. But there are companies out there that have stolen other people's crossovers and sold them as their own. That's just not right.

You're correct, some of these speakers are really nice. I'm not sure why you don't think things might be stepped up in the near future with completed speakers.
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post #10409 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 10:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post


I haven't replied to any emails on the site since about Thursday. So maybe I missed one from you, or just haven't read it yet.

Everyone here has worked very hard on all of this. If someone buys a kit, assembles it, then sells it to a friend, I certainly don't care. But there are companies out there that have stolen other people's crossovers and sold them as their own. That's just not right.

You're correct, some of these speakers are really nice, so I'm not sure why you don't think things might be stepped up in the future with completed speakers.


"People" are generally lazy unfortunately/fortunately so I hope the plans come to fruition.  It seems to me the people who consider diy are probably not even looking for a great price, but a great sound. Right there that's likely only 5% of the general population, because most of my friends think their HTIB sounds good till they come visit us for a family movie night :) I'm trying to convince people with no children or other obligations that a kit you can glue together and paint would be worth it and most scoff at the idea even after seeing mine all done up nicely. (too much work).  Maybe those sorts of people should be excluded.

 

I agree, anyone who steals another person's work is despicable, especially if being done for profit to boot. Unfortunately, in my experience the guy with the most money wins intellectual property disputes.

 

Either way, I've just taken the next leap in the DIY adventure and hope to return something useful to the community in the next few weeks, be less a whiney biatch, and I'll have a better idea of the mental anguish you have been suffering.

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post #10410 of 12677 Old 06-08-2014, 10:52 AM
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Pokeme. It isn't up to Erich to give out the design. It's up to the designer. I haven't made a penny off any of these designs. I've lost some money. So if you think you should be compensated, where does that leave me (I'm saying 'me' but mean any designer). They're our designs to do as we please. How about Jeff B for his amazing PCD program that has been used for a lot of these designs... FREE!!! That program is a $150 piece of software that hundred of people use free. If you feel kicked out of the club because Erich didn't give you the schematic for something that isn't his, feel free to ask the designer who has the rights to that design.

Perhaps you don't remember why Erich started the website. I do. It was because he felt bad for guys like Bagby, lilmike, etc. Handing out designs without compensation for their time. So he set up a donation thing on the website to say thanks for flat packs and things. Guess how many donations he received? It's as if the designer's effort is not appreciated but a builders time is worth something. And I'm not supposed to be insulted? I've declined every donation that has come my way. Not one penny has been collected. You don't have any say in this. If you think you're kicked out of the club, that's your own feeling.

I'll tell you what. Send me a thousand dollars, which is roughly the cost of parts of my new design, and another thousand dollars for my time (roughly 100hours and $10/hr) and once it's done, it's yours to build and sell. I haven't released the XO. It's all yours for $2k. I mean hey, that's my cost in this whole thing, so I'm not even making money. That's just to get me out of the hole I'm in with my wife. And if you think I should make money, then make it $1000 plus $10,000 which is about 100 hours at $100/hr of engineers time. Seems fair??

And I'll just caveat this like you did and say don't be offended this is just my perspective.
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