Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 351 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Claybe View Post
Erich, just saw the karma 10 and the pure 10 on the website. The designs or baffles look similar. Can you explain the differences? Or recommend one over the other?
The new Karma design uses the Eminence Beta 10 and the Fusion uses the Delta 10. Funny enough though, those woofers are the exact same cost at the moment. I was trying to figure this out earlier today. The Delta is a beefier woofer but I imagine the new Karma and Fusion will sound very similar.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:48 PM
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The Delta-10 costs about $5 more than the Beta-10. The Karma savings is in the crossover design, but not because it uses cheaper parts, it just worked out that way.....so it ended up costing less.......which put it in the Karma Line.


The Karma-10 was one of the first SEOS models done so it's tough to just get rid of it. The new version is very nice, but as you noted, the woofers are fairly similar. The Beta-10 might give some extra midbass kick.

There were other plans for the Karma Line, but I figured they should go up there for now.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:52 PM
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claybe View Post
Erich, just saw the karma 10 and the pure 10 on the website. The designs or baffles look similar. Can you explain the differences? Or recommend one over the other?
I'm sure the Karma 10 sounds better, particularly since I've never heard the Pure 10, and I was half designer on the Karma! (BTW: don't trust recommendations from component's designers!).

Since I'm posting some measurement plots on other stuff right now, here are some for the Karma 10.
Frequency response, sensitivity (indoor measurement, 2.8V 1m, 1/24th octave smoothing):


Some things of note:

Note the floor bounce notch at 120Hz, that will move around with distance.
Note also the very linear phase! That wasn't a design goal, but it started coming out that way so we went for it. So since that happened, here is a shot of the impulse response. Take that, Quad 63!:


So, yes, it can do square waves over a pretty wide range of frequencies (this one cherry-picked, of course):


A Waterfall


And its impedance plot:


(That impedance angle at 2kHz could be tamed pretty well with a few parts, if it bothers someone).

So, it came out pretty well. I'll probably be using a set of these for back channels after we move.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:44 PM
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Exclamation Audio Fest July 12

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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
That one is a 350 and won't cross low enough to a subwoofer. Of course the same guy ordered the bigger 200 model, and smaller 1000 model......2 of each in light grey and deep purple. That was around 3 years ago and I still haven't opened up the bigger ones.

There's a pallet of stuff like that sitting on the shelves. Kind of a bummer seeing group buy funds just sitting there, but some is my fault for trusting that people will hold up their end.
Why not take that stuff to the swap meet, at Midwest Audiofest at Part-Express in two weeks, July 12th?
http://www.midwestaudiofest.com/index.php

Make up a list of what you have, maybe some prices, and post it on your web site. If you don't do something to move those items, that unused inventory is just money sitting around on the floor.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

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Old 06-24-2014, 10:42 PM
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I didnt even know you had stuff sitting around Erich. Curious what other great finds you have.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Claybe View Post
Erich, just saw the karma 10 and the pure 10 on the website. The designs or baffles look similar. Can you explain the differences? Or recommend one over the other?
I feel like this is asked a lot and well the answers may or may not satisfy you.
The Fusion Pure 10 is a "better" speaker than the Karma 10.
The Karma 10 lets you step up to an SEOS waveguide. It's just a little more expensive than the Fusion 8. But for that step up, you get the SEOS waveguide over the EOS waveguide, more sensitivity, a bigger woofer (I'm not sure at all how the Fusion 8 woofer and Karma 10 woofer compare so I guess someone else can say something about that). There are some other differences as well but I dunno what to say about them. It does seem there are clear steps from the Fusion 8 to Karma 10 to Fusion 10 though. But I'm no expert!

That's how I see it but I'm a noob. @bwaslo I think he may have been looking for something easier to understand but maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tential View Post
I feel like this is asked a lot and well the answers may or may not satisfy you.
The Fusion Pure 10 is a "better" speaker than the Karma 10.
The Karma 10 lets you step up to an SEOS waveguide. It's just a little more expensive than the Fusion 8. But for that step up, you get the SEOS waveguide over the EOS waveguide, more sensitivity, a bigger woofer (I'm not sure at all how the Fusion 8 woofer and Karma 10 woofer compare so I guess someone else can say something about that). There are some other differences as well but I dunno what to say about them. It does seem there are clear steps from the Fusion 8 to Karma 10 to Fusion 10 though. But I'm no expert!

That's how I see it but I'm a noob. @bwaslo I think he may have been looking for something easier to understand but maybe I'm wrong.
Have you looked at the updated website? Apparently the Karma has been redesigned by Bill and Erich and both the Karma and the Pure both now use the SEOS 10 WG. And it seems the delta driver will outperform the pure. Input from the designer helps too! The Karma 10 is looking up in my book!!,
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:01 AM
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Actually things are simpler than that.

Two designers made 2 speakers. Because the speaker prices are based on retail costs......the one that costs less turns into the Karma. There's nothing that says the Karma could not trump an Alpha model.
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
If you promise not to change your mind when they come in, you can wait until they get here. At least for guys here on the AVS forum that I know anyway.

But if it's something kind of funky then I'm not sure. Last year when I was helping with that BMS group buy, a new AVS member that doesn't really post here ordered some purple Iwata-300s, then changed their mind and those are still here. They are kind of neat looking, but as soon as I say 'purple', most people aren't interested. And I can't really get a decent picture of them because of how deep colored they are. Someone did the same thing with some big Tractrix 200's in purple as well.

I just don't want to be stuck with any more stuff that I'll never use.
Erich,

I certainly am not one to tell you how to run things, you've done a remarkable job, but any special orders should require payment up front and once the order is placed, there's no money back.

With that aside, I like that purple look, but don't have a clue how to design something to use them. Plenty of space in my house otherwise.

Builds: Maelstrom 21 Ottoman Build, Dual Opposed MFW's x 2, Statements, SEOS-12/TD12M x 5. 
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:57 AM
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Erich ..Are the seos 15 .ever going to be a stocked item.or just pre order only.when would a new batch be in stock.or how long does the pre order take. Thanks.
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Actually things are simpler than that.

Two designers made 2 speakers. Because the speaker prices are based on retail costs......the one that costs less turns into the Karma. There's nothing that says the Karma could not trump an Alpha model.
Didn't realize that was what you were going for with the naming of each Speaker.

Just curious, if you had a Karma 10 that was in all ways better than an Alpha 10 at a cheaper price, why list the Alpha 10 at all then?
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Actually things are simpler than that.

Two designers made 2 speakers. Because the speaker prices are based on retail costs......the one that costs less turns into the Karma. There's nothing that says the Karma could not trump an Alpha model.
So, question. I have the 1099 on order and was waiting for the Fusion 10 Pure. It makes more sense to wait on the Pure due to it being the same designer and woofer as the 1099, for timbre matching. Correct? Use the Karma 10 wouldn't be as good of a match and may sound different?
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:09 PM
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I didn't label my measurements because I am dumb, so I can't find my Fusion Pure measurement. But that's ok because I have it hooked up as I've been tinkering with it anyways. I was planning on getting better measurements with some more details. I only had an on axis measurement. I'll post them here for people wondering about the Fusion vs Karma 10. I think you'll find the Fusion 10 is a little flatter and has a couple more db sensitivity. But costs more. I'll get some photos while I'm at it. Although mine is a woofer box with the waveguide mounted on top. Not quite what Erich's baffle will be.

The Fusion 10 should be a better timbre match. The karma 10 would save you some dough though.
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tential View Post
Didn't realize that was what you were going for with the naming of each Speaker.

Just curious, if you had a Karma 10 that was in all ways better than an Alpha 10 at a cheaper price, why list the Alpha 10 at all then?
Because some people want their speakers to have a B&C woofer. That might cost $100 more than an Eminence. But could they hear the difference? As mentioned, there's no guarantee they could. So the cheaper model might sound the same to them.

It's not the easiest thing to explain when people are used to seeing companies charge $10k for a speaker using $800 worth of parts. I'm just saying that the speaker lines aren't actually divided up by which ones I think sound better, or which ones you think sound better. Big companies might use cheaper parts and sell a speaker for a huge mark up to make money. But that's not what we're doing here so there's really no other way to break up the DIY speaker lines for except for cost. All the speakers are good, but because they're priced strictly based on how much the parts cost, the cheaper one goes in the Karma Line, mid priced is Fusion, high priced is Alpha. I don't know another way to do it.

But keep in mind, when the designer is planning a Karma speaker, we aren't going to be looking at B&C or expensive drivers. There is a goal set to keep the pricing low for that line. I also bug them to try and use less crossover parts to still get great sound. I truly believe the Karma Line is actually harder to do because of that.

Fusion line uses slightly more expensive parts, slightly more expensive crossover to get things flatter if needed, but still trying to keep the crossover fairly easy to assemble.

Alpha Line uses the more expensive stuff, any number of crossover components, etc.



Having said all of that.....because the Karma Line was causing people to lose sleep the last time they were up, there are different plans for them. It was mentioned a few pages ago. I just wanted to put them up in case anyone was waiting on them. They will always cause confusion when listed next to the Fusions. That's why I originally took them off the site.
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I also bug them to try and use less crossover parts to still get great sound.
Grrr.

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I truly believe the Karma Line is actually harder to do because of that.
Yup
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:06 PM
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Mr. Tuxedocivic is mad at me because I've probably been his biggest pain on the Fusion-10 to keep it manageable to the average DIY guy.

I've got a certain speaker in my mind for the Fusions. Kick butt sound, average number of crossover parts....but still fairly easy to assemble. I kept telling him he was pushing for Alpha line crossover work with a Fusion line woofer. But we eventually met in the middle. Fun stuff! In the end, this is all fun to me and I really do enjoy it. Of course the speaker designers that have helped with all of this and put up with some of my ignorance are great people.

I don't know much about crossover work, but I feel like I've got a good idea what the average DIY guy knows about speaker building and what they're hoping for. So I push hard for that in the Fusion line.
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Because some people want their speakers to have a B&C woofer. That might cost $100 more than an Eminence. But could they hear the difference? As mentioned, there's no guarantee they could. So the cheaper model might sound the same to them.

It's not the easiest thing to explain when people are used to seeing companies charge $10k for a speaker using $800 worth of parts. I'm just saying that the speaker lines aren't actually divided up by which ones I think sound better, or which ones you think sound better. Big companies might use cheaper parts and sell a speaker for a huge mark up to make money. But that's not what we're doing here so there's really no other way to break up the DIY speaker lines for except for cost. All the speakers are good, but because they're priced strictly based on how much the parts cost, the cheaper one goes in the Karma Line, mid priced is Fusion, high priced is Alpha. I don't know another way to do it.

But keep in mind, when the designer is planning a Karma speaker, we aren't going to be looking at B&C or expensive drivers. There is a goal set to keep the pricing low for that line. I also bug them to try and use less crossover parts to still get great sound. I truly believe the Karma Line is actually harder to do because of that.

Fusion line uses slightly more expensive parts, slightly more expensive crossover to get things flatter if needed, but still trying to keep the crossover fairly easy to assemble.

Alpha Line uses the more expensive stuff, any number of crossover components, etc.



Having said all of that.....because the Karma Line was causing people to lose sleep the last time they were up, there are different plans for them. It was mentioned a few pages ago. I just wanted to put them up in case anyone was waiting on them. They will always cause confusion when listed next to the Fusions. That's why I originally took them off the site.
Ya that is confusing lol.

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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I didn't label my measurements because I am dumb, so I can't find my Fusion Pure measurement. But that's ok because I have it hooked up as I've been tinkering with it anyways. I was planning on getting better measurements with some more details. I only had an on axis measurement. I'll post them here for people wondering about the Fusion vs Karma 10. I think you'll find the Fusion 10 is a little flatter and has a couple more db sensitivity. But costs more. I'll get some photos while I'm at it. Although mine is a woofer box with the waveguide mounted on top. Not quite what Erich's baffle will be.

The Fusion 10 should be a better timbre match. The karma 10 would save you some dough though.
But after reading both these posts I think it's just that when someone asks "What's the difference between the Karma-10 and the Fusion-10?" We get a long and confusing post with a ton of graphs and really longwinded talk. For a person who is browsing the site and coming in to figure out the "basic difference" it's very confusing.

To paraphrase it all:
The difference between the Fusion-10 and the Karma-10 (And the Fusion/Karma lines in general) is:

Karma Line: Uses the bear minimum to get the greatest bang for your buck. Crossover is meant to be as simple and easy to assemble as possible.
Fusion Line: Slightly more expensive parts and crossover to get a flat response and more sensitivity.
Alpha Line: Designers are free to choose what they want to get the job done (within reason obviously)

I know it's extremely simplistic and basically is just what both of you have posted but this question comes up a lot on here (What the difference between the lines are) and it's been answered by you so many times that it probably should just be put on the FAQ at this point. Anyone who wants a more detailed explanation can then come here but usually the difference between two speakers gets into a more technical debate (which is great here) but the person probably was just looking for something simplistic and that simplistic answer just gets lost under a sea of information.

I don't think the difference between the Karma/Fusion line is confusing to anyone other than to noobs (like myself) who are trying to find an answer they can understand quickly lol. I'm a firm believer in choices and if you're able to manage having both lines up, it's definitely worth it. I'd just take what was written here and just reorganize it and put it in the FAQ so people who just want the basic differences between the speaker lines will understand it. Reading the posts over a couple of times it makes sense to me now but it's just finding the concise mix of words to explain it quickly so the same situation doesn't always have to occur.
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Mr. Tuxedocivic is mad at me because I've probably been his biggest pain on the Fusion-10 to keep it manageable to the average DIY guy.

I've got a certain speaker in my mind for the Fusions. Kick butt sound, average number of crossover parts....but still fairly easy to assemble. I kept telling him he was pushing for Alpha line crossover work with a Fusion line woofer. But we eventually met in the middle. Fun stuff! In the end, this is all fun to me and I really do enjoy it. Of course the speaker designers that have helped with all of this and put up with some of my ignorance are great people.

I don't know much about crossover work, but I feel like I've got a good idea what the average DIY guy knows about speaker building and what they're hoping for. So I push hard for that in the Fusion line.
Why reduce xo parts if its not a big cost ? If you included a drawing done in word of both sides it would be easy to put together the xo. No need for schematic drawing.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:35 PM
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Why reduce xo parts if its not a big cost ? If you included a drawing done in word of both sides it would be easy to put together the xo. No need for schematic drawing.

The same could be said for woofer costs, compression driver costs, etc. That's why you don't see B&C or JBL woofers in the Fusion Line. It's not all about cost, or all about build simplicity, or all about brands. There's a balancing act between all of them.

There has to be a general price point for each model in each line. But never at the expense of crippling a speaker model. That would be stupid. It wouldn't make much sense for the Fusion-8 to cost more than the Fusion-10. If that happens it could be because the 2 parts didn't blend well enough and it's back to the drawing board until the design is nailed down.

There's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes for these designs than what most people see.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:39 PM
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Why reduce xo parts if its not a big cost ? If you included a drawing done in word of both sides it would be easy to put together the xo. No need for schematic drawing.
I mean does it hurt? You get the Fusion line. Then you get the Karma line. IF you dont' want the reduced XO cost then take the Fusion line. The Karma-10 $180 vs the $214 of the Fusion-10(Just used the pricing on the site not sure what i'll be when finalized of course). For some people, that $68 saving on a pair may be worth it. That's 90% of the cost of the SEOS-10 flatpacks.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:49 PM
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I think people want advice on which designs are "best", but don't want to risk possi ly paying more for one that is only as good or possibly worse than a less expensive one. But that won't happen because "best" is a matter of opinion not fact. The only fact you can get is some technical details and/or data plots (and if you understood all those you'd maybe be designing your own!). It's even a matter of opinion which technical details matter. Or even non technical detail -- some would say more expensive parts or complication or simplicity or fewer parts or magic parts or old technology vintage parts are preferred. Opinion holders/advisors range from data-only techies who might have no actual usage experiences to go on, to witch-doctor types who go only on experience (with a massive dose of imagination). I'm defiantly of the camp that believes price has nearly zero to do with value (was a 1980 Civic a better car to have in th long run, over time, or a 1980 Cadillac?). But more cost can be the better value too, some cheap stuff is Yugos, too.

So basically what I'm saying is that no one can just tell you what the best choice is. You have to go by what factors you trust right now or reviews if you can get them (and if they are believable or applicable to you).

Erich decides group by cost of parts selected.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:56 PM
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Erich ..Are the seos 15 .ever going to be a stocked item.or just pre order only.when would a new batch be in stock.or how long does the pre order take. Thanks.

anyone ???? bueller

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Old 06-25-2014, 07:08 PM
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To be honest, maybe I shouldn't have put the Karma Line back up on the site. There's a new 8", 10", 12", and 15", but I can't seem to properly explain why they were ever done.

Way.....way back in this thread (as in years ago) I mentioned that we would work hard to get speaker designs done that would allow even extreme penny pinchers to enjoy some crazy good speakers using the waveguides we designed here. It was very important at the time. But the idea of a cheaper speaker just doesn't seem to work in the audio field because people wonder why it's so cheap.

If this was run as a big company, or doing what other audio companies do, the Karma line would cost about the sum of the parts. The Fusion line would be well over retail price of it's parts, and the Alpha Line would be out of reach for most people's wallets. Why? Because that's business.

Everyone would say 'Wow, that Fusion Line must be incredible because it cost three times as much as the Karma.' That "3x as much" money is what audio companies pocket.

But when we're simply listing things at their actual costs (or less)......kits are much closer in price. So when you add up the Fusion-10 parts, it might only be $45 more than the Karma-10......not 3 times more. What should be done? Not offer the cheaper one because people think it's too cheap? Raise the price of the Fusion just for the heck of it so that there's a bigger price gap? I'm not going to do that.

The Karmas were taken down last year because most people didn't see why saving $45 or $100 per speaker was worth it. I thought of something different for them later this year, but figured I'd go ahead and put them up again as they were finished up just in case anyone wanted to snag some.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:25 PM
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I would have gone ahead and picked up the Karma if I didn't want to use a 1099 as the center.

Have you should any since they've gone back up on sale? I would let anything other than sales deter you from continuing what you are doing. If the sales aren't there that's one thing.


On the whole crossover instructions, i was wondering the same thing. Sounds a bit overwhelming for first time DIYers to build a crossover with minimal or no instructions. I though about emailing you and talking about this. It would be nice to have a PDF or printout that people received with their purchase. Something showing the size of the wood needed, the layout and part name/number, and the back showing how everything connects. Could even give measurements on where to drill the holes and spacing. Would be fairly simple to do once a prototype is built. A branded instruction sheet that would be simple for everyone to follow. I mentioned emailing you because I've been I've been in the creative business for years and thought about offering my help for free. It would be easy to set up a simple template and just drop in what is needed for new speakers.

Food for though. If you're interested, you know where to find me and I could mock something up.
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
To be honest, maybe I shouldn't have put the Karma Line back up on the site. There's a new 8", 10", 12", and 15", but I can't seem to properly explain why they were ever done.

Way.....way back in this thread (as in years ago) I mentioned that we would work hard to get speaker designs done that would allow even extreme penny pinchers to enjoy some crazy good speakers using the waveguides we designed here. It was very important at the time. But the idea of a cheaper speaker just doesn't seem to work in the audio field because people wonder why it's so cheap.

If this was run as a big company, or doing what other audio companies do, the Karma line would cost about the sum of the parts. The Fusion line would be well over retail price of it's parts, and the Alpha Line would be out of reach for most people's wallets. Why? Because that's business.

Everyone would say 'Wow, that Fusion Line must be incredible because it cost three times as much as the Karma.' That "3x as much" money is what audio companies pocket.

But when we're simply listing things at their actual costs (or less)......kits are much closer in price. So when you add up the Fusion-10 parts, it might only be $45 more than the Karma-10......not 3 times more. What should be done? Not offer the cheaper one because people think it's too cheap? Raise the price of the Fusion just for the heck of it so that there's a bigger price gap? I'm not going to do that.

The Karmas were taken down last year because most people didn't see why saving $45 or $100 per speaker was worth it. I thought of something different for them later this year, but figured I'd go ahead and put them up again as they were finished up just in case anyone wanted to snag some.
Well just like I said earlier. Just put up on the FAQ that the Karma line is simply like the fusion but using the cheapest component possible to still provide quality sound up to the high standards that you've set.

You described it already pretty well here. Just put it up on the actual site and people will understand. From your description here it makes sense but it's not always the same description you give.
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:25 PM
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Here some videos I did on how to assemble a XO. I did them on my phone and sound like a total dork.


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Old 06-25-2014, 09:37 PM
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LOL......Great video. IN the mind of a mad scientist. LOL.

Either way I do believe the videos were a big help for others. I enjoyed watching them.
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Here some videos I did on how to assemble a XO. I did them on my phone and sound like a total dork.

http://youtu.be/aP9rdh3EjPg

http://youtu.be/UUBDRI9j2IE
Maybe a little like Steve earkle
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:38 PM
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Just put up on the FAQ that the Karma line is simply like the fusion but using the cheapest component possible to still provide quality sound up to the high standards that you've set.
---

But that's not really true. They are different speakers designed by different people with different ideas and perhaps different assumptions about what will make a speaker sound good. You don't just pick a type of speaker, some inches number for the woofer, and then turn the dollar knob up or down to hit a target.
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