Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 353 - AVS Forum
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post #10561 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
It just seemed obvious that if people think the karma is "less good" because of price to put the design goal into the product description so people know it's goal was to be as good as possible with cheaper parts and simpler design.
I can understand that, but I also think having a blub at the top of the fusion page explaining the line as a whole; as well as the description of/why they are created.. You then provide the detail for each speaker on the page like it is now, but maybe with any further description or info needed.

Users don't want to have to multi-click on to find out what the goal is overall. They can get further goal information within the page, but research shows that most people are not going to navigate multiple pages to find their info. You want it out front and then they can delve into more information based on the mission/goal of the overall line.

Makes sense?

this is TOTALLY off the top of my head, and I'm at work...lol so

"Our Fusion line of SEO based loud speakers wascreated for the do-it-yourself home theater or audio enthusiast. These kits cover a wide range of use; from living room, office, home theater, classrooms, meeting rooms and more. The goal of the fusion line is simple - use the highest quality parts, speakers, crossover parts and design to keep within a your specific budget. But don't let the price fool you, each speaker design may be superior that it's price suggest. Our speaker designers use innovative ways in designing our speaker and crossover parts. This in turn sometimes reduces overall parts, which in turn helps lower the overall cost, while maintaining the high quality and versatile sound that you may find in speakers in a higher price range. You can find more information about the goal and design of each speaker on their product descriptions.

Our Mission is to provide you, the customers, with the best possible experience and complete satisfaction in your DIY build.

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post #10562 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 11:46 AM
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DEAD HORSE ALERT!
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post #10563 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 11:46 AM
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Even though there's good karma and bad karma, I'm beginning to think those lower priced speakers are bringing bad karma to the AVS board. Every time they're listed everyone gets mad.


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post #10564 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Even though there's good karma and bad karma, I'm beginning to think those lower priced speakers are bringing bad karma to the AVS board. Every time they're listed everyone gets mad.
I hear you! Every time these conversations get started up AGAIN, I just cringe to see where they'll end up. It's ridiculous.
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post #10565 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 11:59 AM
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I don't think anyone was mad. We're just offering advise to try and help with the confusion. As I said, take what I say with a grain of salt. If you find something I say unhelpful, so be it, you're certainly NOT going to offend me. I meant no harm and I hope I didn't offend you or make you think you I was trying to tell you how to run your business.
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post #10566 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 12:09 PM
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See, I'm just kidding and you don't even know it because of bad Karma!
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post #10567 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 12:38 PM
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See, I'm just kidding and you don't even know it because of bad Karma!
Had me! I thought maybe this was a touchy subject and I missed something. I'm still new around here
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post #10568 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
It just seemed obvious that if people think the karma is "less good" because of price to put the design goal into the product description so people know it's goal was to be as good as possible with cheaper parts and simpler design.
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.
EricH has done a great job organizing this process, he just needs some help conveying his intentions through his site. It's a great project and EricH has done a great job, but the site needs work. There are a lot of us that would be willing to help you with the site EricH. I'd be more than willing to draw up some mock changes that would help organize the site in an easier to navigate manner and fill in some missing information and I'm sure others here would also be willing to do so as well.

We just have to get the website to convey the same things EricH has said in this thread. Right now it doesn't do as effectively as it could.
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post #10569 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 01:32 PM
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I think seaton sound needs work a lot more then his
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post #10570 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 02:33 PM
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I don't mean to induce an extreme topic switch, but....

Is there any reason the 88 Specials would not be as great for music as they are movies? What makes a speaker better for music as opposed to movies?
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post #10571 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 03:50 PM
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Having a matched center channel is the only thing that makes them 'better for movies'
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post #10572 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Noman74656 View Post
What makes a speaker better for music as opposed to movies?
Marketing. Misinformation. Too many really bad HTIB setups.

At best, you could argue that most music has little content below 40 Hz so a speaker can be fine for music but sorely lacking when trying to produce the <40 Hz LFE that may even extend to 10 Hz.

....and the very first reply will be that pipe organs can hit 16 Hz....

What if your movie is a concert video? What is better for that? The music speaker or the HT speaker?
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post #10573 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 07:21 PM
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For me subs will be used when listening to music or movies. So who cares about the 16hz thing. Music for me just be reproduced by a speaker that can create the illusion of live music. Some HT speakers can do that while others cant. HT speakers in this forum have great directivity which gets the sound to you without all the wall deflections. Generalization but good enough here.

Some people like the way a speaker sounds with music and no directivity while others dont. Once you start getting into the very high quality designs the difference in sound reproduced by a "HT," speaker verse music becomes smaller and smaller.

Lots of opinions also are involved in which one will work for you.
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post #10574 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Every three to four weeks the same discussion about product lines take place. I am not sure why its an issue. The fusion line outsells others by 15-20 to 1 at least....(snip)

(...snip) I think there should be just two lines. Fusion and all out stuff like maximus. Keep the confusion down. Ahhh I feel better now
We don't have these discussions when the Fusions are the only kits listed on DIY Soundgroup site.

I blame the discussion redux on Erich. He's the one stirring the pot by re-listing some Karma models on the site.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #10575 of 11167 Old 06-26-2014, 09:43 PM
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You just put "The simple solution is make the karma line the "fusion lite" and in the first sentence or two of the description say "all of the amazing fusion sound for $60 less the cost"." Which is EXACTLY what I already wrote.

(respectful snip)

All of that aside, Erich might not like the idea of streamlining his business and trying to help with the confusion in the various product lines. I'm just offering help in that area as I've done it time and time again. He can tell me to shut up if he wants
Would you guys stop it with the "Lite" suggestions? No real man wants to brag he drinks "lite" beer; only my wife would drink Pepsi "Lite". "It's Lite, it's frilly, it's cute, it isn't as substantial as the "real" stuff." Blech. It's like cowboys riding unicorns instead of horses. Men simply do not want to ride unicorns.

No my friends, we need to have the FUSION line, something MEN would buy, a speaker for for real men! FUSION, kind of like a super power, which combines two other super powers.

(Now don't tell anybody I said so, but this would really be your "Lite" version. Your "Karma" line. Your entry level model.)
I say take your basic line and then ADD terms: Fusion Plus. Fusion 2's. Fusion Grande. Fusion Pro. Fusion Alpha. Even making the font bigger makes me feel bigger, metaphorically speaking from a man's point of view, if you know what I mean. And I think a lot of you guys do, know what I mean.
+++

/rant

As I suggested to Erich elsewhere in the 10,500 post "Hey Guys" thread, "what's in a name?"

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

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post #10576 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman74656 View Post
I don't mean to induce an extreme topic switch, but....

Is there any reason the 88 Specials would not be as great for music as they are movies? What makes a speaker better for music as opposed to movies?
They should do music equally as well assuming an appropriate sub complement.

I think the "cinema" name arises mostly from the form factor of the speaker. It fits nicely under a screen and is capable enough to be used across the LCRs.

AFA a music speaker vs a cinema speaker, I personally prefer a "strictly music" setup to have an exaggerated mid-bass and sub. Something like 3-4db rise through bottom octaves of the bass guitar down to the kick drum and beyond. Similar to what you hear live. So AFA speaker properties one voiced with a stronger midbass would be my preferrence.

For a cinema speaker i find less midbass preferable and a more flat response although 1-2db rise is still nice i find any more distracting for movie watching.
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post #10577 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 05:57 AM
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A speaker is a speaker. It's job is to reproduce sound accurately. The quality of the speaker is determined by how well it does this task. It doesn't matter if it's a movie or it's music. It's either a good speaker or it's a bad speaker or it's somewhere in between; lots of shades of grey. It doesn't actually matter if it not movies or music; it could be books on tape or relaxation sounds like waves crashing. A good speaker is a good speaker. There isn't such a thing as good for music but bad for movies or vice versa. As speakers get "better" they become more ideal for any task; as they get "worse" they become less ideal. The goal is to get the sound reproduced as accurately as possible. Great movie speakers are great music speakers. Terrible speakers are terrible for both too.
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post #10578 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
Would you guys stop it with the "Lite" suggestions?
How about Fusion Omega > Fusion Pure > Fusion Alpha? Since Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet and Alpha is the first.

Woot: My 1099 shipped yesterday and it's out for delivery! Can't wait to see it when I get home.

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post #10579 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by likelinus View Post
How about Fusion Omega > Fusion Pure > Fusion Alpha? Since Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet and Alpha is the first.

Woot: My 1099 shipped yesterday and it's out for delivery! Can't wait to see it when I get home.
Welcome to the 1099 club! If you have any questions I am available to help. You'll love them!
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post #10580 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by likelinus View Post
How about Fusion Omega > Fusion Pure > Fusion Alpha? Since Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet and Alpha is the first.

For what it's worth, there's nothing different from that than calling them Omega, Pure, Alpha. Which means there's nothing different from that than calling them Karma, Fusion, Alpha.


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post #10581 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 07:41 AM
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For what it's worth, there's nothing different from that than calling them Omega, Pure, Alpha. Which means there's nothing different from that than calling them Karma, Fusion, Alpha.
That's true. I guess the only think I was suggesting is trying to avoid multiple lines of speakers if they are using similar components and it's causing confusion. Because you have the Karma's separate from the Fusion and you may have the future Karma 12 and 15 in the future. So all I was only suggesting is to have one line with:

Fusion Omega 10, Fusion Pure 10, Fusion Alpha 10
Fusion Omega 12, Fusion Pure 12, Fusion Alpha 12

Anyways, I was just responding to the poster complaining about me using lite. It was all I could think of at the time. Ultimately it doesn't matter and I don't care either way Just trying to help since everyone says there is confusion. You can ignore me
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post #10582 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 07:45 AM
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Welcome to the 1099 club! If you have any questions I am available to help. You'll love them!
Thanks! Will do. Building the crossover correctly is my only concern. The box and everything else I've done many many times. I took Tux's advice and looked at the other threads and then started saving photos of the layout. So once I get everything laid out on the board, I'm sure I'll be bothering you guys to check my layout and wiring to make sure I did it correctly. I really appreciate the help though!
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post #10583 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 07:46 AM
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This really helps! That makes sense now why the 88 Special is also called the cinema 1 since it's shape is more conducive to a theater setup. I am leaning toward three of those up front, and perhaps putting the L and R on top of my two Marty Cubes to use them as stands.

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post #10584 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 08:02 AM
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totally agree @.mfusick..
Need good subs to cover the very bottom.

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post #10585 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 08:07 AM
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Fusion Gold(or Platinum)
Fusion Silver
Fusion Bronze

Etc etc
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post #10586 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Cocoboo View Post
Fusion Gold(or Platinum)
Fusion Silver
Fusion Bronze

Etc etc
This is bad. It reinforces that the higher series is significantly better, or the lower series is somehow not good.

That's not necessarily the case. Sure it's true that the more expensive parts or kits might be better in a lot of cases but it's not automatically true and the difference between a silver and a gold speaker won't be like the real difference between real silver and real gold.

Just because some parts are a little cheaper doesn't mean they can't be as good (or better). There's a few cases where some drivers are just good values, and the designer really nailed the crossover and design so the inexpensive kit is one hell of a great speaker - especially considering the price. It's this that's isn't translated well currently and why people think the cheaper stuff isn't "good" or the more expensive stuff is significantly better just because it costs more.

In retail the cheap stuff sells for 20% margin while the middle line enjoys a 60% margin and the high line might have a 200% margin but at the true mfg cost in parts for the mfg it might only be a $60 difference in parts and the differences in performance isn't as big as the difference in price suggests anyways.

If a driver is cheap because of economies of scale, a special buyout, Erich's discount or whatever that doesn't mean the inexpensive kit has to give up a lot of performance. Non of the designers are trying to design a speaker that fits into the line up perfectly or position the speaker they are designing below an existing model or line. They are trying to design the best possible speaker for a given budget of parts and desired simplicity. If some parts are a good value and the chosen drivers just happen to work perfectly together you might get a really nice result, almost surprisingly good or special where everything just works out perfectly. Kudos to the awesome designers for that too! That's the goal. It's not to design a karma line speaker to be slightly less good than a fusion line speaker. That's not the goal. The goal is to make both models as awesome as possible; it might not work out so perfectly where there's a distinct difference between them or that the results line up perfectly with "silver" or "gold" or "platinum"

I know the expensive drivers with shorting rings or special features or that test better one paper and cost a ton more might have some advantages and a lot of folks want them and want alpha line speaker designs but if you dig through some of the reviews and comparisons there seems to be a lot of folks on both sides. Some seem to think there's a big difference and others seem to think there isn't or the lower lines in comparison get you basically all the sound for less cost so they are really the better value. That's why there is different lines but the lowest lines are not designed necessarily to be the lowest in sound. They are actually designed to be the best sounding they can be just like the rest. That's why all the SEOS designs kick so much ass. They aren't designed to line up like mfg made models do at retail. That's why there's so much confusion too.

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post #10587 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 09:38 AM
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The name thing is working itself out as evidenced by the latter designs (maximus, 1099, 88 special, etc.)
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post #10588 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 10:28 AM
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I'd rather see no product categories, and just complete descriptions and performance data; but that not realistic.

Instead, how about calling the various groups "beginner" or "novice?" The speakers can be given normal names, so a guy doesn't need to say "I need help with this beginner level speaker." (We can save that awkwardness.) More complicated designs can be called "hobbyist" or something; more clearly communicating that they are geared to the more experienced builder. Any really complicated stuff (like hybrid active designs) can be categorized as "pro level." Things like PCBs could be limited to novice level designs, to simplify supply and stock issues.
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post #10589 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 10:53 AM
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^+1

I dont care what there called, gimme tha data!
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post #10590 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 10:58 AM
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The issue is there is 0 description on the site currently about the difference between the Karma and Fusion line.
I'm confused as to how people think this WOULDNT cause confusion. You have 2 lines on the site with 0 description of each line.

Why don't we at least attempt to add a description about what the product lines are first?

There is an EMPTY FAQ section. Yet there CERTAINLY are frequently asked questions, many of which are brought to this thread.

I don't think the issues are with the names of the product line or anything. It's a lack of posted information on the site or EricH's intentions.

Like I've said before, this is a GREAT project EricH has done. But his website doesn't accurately communicate what he is trying to achieve so of course that will cause issues.

Updating the site will certainly go a long way to resolving many of the questions brought up here repeatedly.
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