Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 354 - AVS Forum
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post #10591 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 11:13 AM
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Well said Fred. Names don't matter. You can call them anything. labeling them with "good, better best" isn't a good idea. If a speaker is an exceptionally good performer and rather cheap then the product description should say that. If an alpha line speaker costs more because of fancy parts it should say that too. There is nothing wrong with saying "don't let the low cost fool you" on the cheap stuff or saying "this kit is for people that want it all" on the really high end stuff. But if you label them names that suggest the quality it naturally will just kill the sales on the cheaper models - because with DIY there just isn't a huge difference in cost.

You have cheap thrills right ? A lot of people didn't want the DNA350 they wanted the 360 because they thought it was better, and the low cost of that kit fooled a lot of folks. But I liked the name of that kit because it did suggest it was a good performer and good value. It was quite a bit cheaper than the more expensive kits but I am not sure that kit sounds equally worse than the more expensive models, certainly not as much as the difference in price. That was a good example though where I think at least some people understood that the cheap thrill was indeed "a cheap thrill" and it's wasn't cheap because it wasn't as good, it was just cheap because the parts were and that made it a great deal. If the Karma line is to remain or ever be successful it needs to take a lesson from the cheap thrill, otherwise the Fusion will out sell the karma significantly because for the small difference in price so many feel like they should step up.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #10592 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 11:15 AM
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DEAD HORSE!!!! Let Erick name them as he will and we either buy them or not.I think the larger issue that Erick eluded to is he needs help with thedescriptions on the web site and that most folks do not do a review of themeither. They pop in for help building and then you never hear from them again.I like the way the first page of the volts have a nice description of the Voltfamily then you link from there on the 8” or 10”. There should be a place at the bottom of eachspeaker where someone can do a review of their speakers.


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post #10593 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by likelinus View Post
How about Fusion Omega > Fusion Pure > Fusion Alpha? Since Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet and Alpha is the first.

Woot: My 1099 shipped yesterday and it's out for delivery! Can't wait to see it when I get home.
Congrats on the 1099! I think LOTS of people are looking for a review, so I'm looking forward to yours. FYI my Fusion PURE took a lot of time to to break in, so if you plug yours in and it doesn't overwhelm you, play it for a month or so, then get back to us.

When I bought my Fusion 10 PURE, there was also a Fusion MAX with a bigger CD, the DNA-360 and a reworked XO. I had forgotten about that.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #10594 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 11:26 AM
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As an outsider/newcomer looking in *and* a colossal cheapskate, I really don't get what the fuss and confusion is about. Karma = price is considered, strongly, in the design, but the results are excellent; Fusion = price is less important, but big-money parts/upgrades/"upgrades"/brands are avoided, but the results are excellent; Alpha = spare no expense, even possibly spending money on things most people won't be able to hear, but the results are excellent. Pick the size you need, or spend the money you want, or work out your own solution balancing the two.

I think there'd actually be less confusion if there were an option for each line at each size, but I don't think that's fair to ask -- that's a lot of stock! Maybe post public parts lists and XOs for any size that DIYSG doesn't want to stock, in a "if we were to have a Karma-6 (say), we'd do this..." and refer people to PE or elsewhere, but at least that way people could see the differences / tradeoffs and decide for themselves?

I still think the Karmas should come without a baffle, in a "cut your own hole for the woofer; mount the horn on top" elegant simplicity, lower cost, and lower shipping cost, and as another differentiation from the other lines, but perhaps I have weird taste.

That said, there's always going to be a bit of confusion, at least from we clueless newbs, when a Karma speaker is more expensive than a Fusion speaker, 'cuz it takes us a few lumps with a cluebat to get that a good woofer going into, say, a 6" design will just be cheaper than an 10" design. I can totally imagine DIYSG/this board wanting to take down the options thanks to fatiguing of the "but is the cheaper Fusion 6 better than the Karma 10?!"-type questions, though I think that would be a loss. : (

As for cheapskatery, I may be the only one (it seems audio weeds out the weak?), but budget and cost are important to me. I was waiting with 'bated breath for the K10, and was a little disappointed to see the price tag. I was hoping for < $150/each... and, yeah, that $60/pair is real money for some people. It's not the difference between making rent or not, perhaps, but it's not $0. There's a big difference between spending $100/each vs. $200/each vs. $300, vs $400 -- *especially* when you need two or more. But, maybe there's just not enough demand from people like me?

Anyone want to design something *super* cheap, like, say $20 DNA-150, 12" WG and four well-reviewed $5 6.5"ers? I told you I was cheap... I guy can hope, can't he? ; )

(While I'm dreaming, is there any chance a Fusion-4 (not F4Q4) could be done for things like boomboxes, surrounds in small rooms, maybe PC (and maybe car?) speakers? Or is that yet another stupid idea from a newb?)

Yeah, yeah, just go grab the K10s while they're up... I might just have to do that....

Thanks to all for the hard work of designing, creating, stocking, shipping, answering dumb newb questions, all of it! It is not unappreciated, and I'm getting tired just sitting here thinking of all that goes in to it!

To excellent speakers! Cheers!
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post #10595 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post
^+1

I dont care what there called, gimme tha data!
OK, you got it! Are you going to buy speaker A, or Speaker B?

Speaker A: 20hz to 20,000 Mhz. 400 watts.

Speaker B: 58 Hz to to 18,000 Mhz. It is rated for 200 watts.


C'mon, you surely know a 400 watt speaker is twice as good as a 200 watt speaker, don't you? That's data, right?
Or would you rather hear an unbiased review from someone you trust?

You do trust me, don't you?

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

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post #10596 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post

I think there'd actually be less confusion if there were an option for each line at each size, but I don't think that's fair to ask -- that's a lot of stock!
Actually there are all woofer sizes from 8" - 15" for the Karma and Fusion Line. The Alpha Line was always suppose to come last after the designers got more used to working with the waveguides and more time was spent looking for which components to use.

The FL-450 compression driver hasn't been around for very long, but that's definitely the driver that will be used for the top models. The top models are expensive to get started because the parts are expensive for me to buy and just have sitting afterwards.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
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post #10597 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 12:17 PM
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Wink MegaHURTZ!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
OK, you got it! Are you going to buy speaker A, or Speaker B?

Speaker A: 20hz to 20,000 Mhz. 400 watts.

Speaker B: 58 Hz to to 18,000 Mhz. It is rated for 200 watts.


C'mon, you surely know a 400 watt speaker is twice as good as a 200 watt speaker, don't you? That's data, right?
Or would you rather hear an unbiased review from someone you trust?

You do trust me, don't you?
Ill buy either if they go to Megahurtz!

Although i bet theyll take 1.21 Jigawatts to get to reference!
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post #10598 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 12:26 PM
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Ill buy either if they go to Megahurtz!

Although i bet theyll take 1.21 Jigawatts to get to reference!
LOL! I screwed that up, didn't I? I was going for funny, but all I got was stupid!

I guess you can't have it all.
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Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #10599 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 12:33 PM
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Congrats on the 1099! I think LOTS of people are looking for a review, so I'm looking forward to yours. FYI my Fusion PURE took a lot of time to to break in, so if you plug yours in and it doesn't overwhelm you, play it for a month or so, then get back to us.

When I bought my Fusion 10 PURE, there was also a Fusion MAX with a bigger CD, the DNA-360 and a reworked XO. I had forgotten about that.
Absolutely, Will do. I'll do a build thread and write a review once I have it up and running. I'm waiting on the Fusion Pure to round out my L/R. I'm replacing a Klipsch Reference system, so I can give a quick comparison as well.
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post #10600 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 12:53 PM
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Absolutely, Will do. I'll do a build thread and write a review once I have it up and running. I'm waiting on the Fusion Pure to round out my L/R. I'm replacing a Klipsch Reference system, so I can give a quick comparison as well.
Wow, I think that is exactly what most people want, to compare the SEOS designs against the Klipsch. Your SEOS review/Klipsch shootout might become the standard post everyone wants to read. Make sure you put it in its own thread, so we can find it. It would get buried in the archives if you put it in the 10,000 post Hey Guys thread.

The SEOS speakers might be comparable to the Klipsch, but why are you swapping out your Klipsch? Any Klipsch reference system ought to be giving you some pretty great sound.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #10601 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 01:09 PM
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The top models are expensive to get started because the parts are expensive for me to buy and just have sitting afterwards.
Great news about the two full ranges. Though I do wonder if you do yourself a bit of a disservice with the occasional tease, at least with we indecisive types who then think, "maybe I'll wait and see what the new models look like..." rather than, you know, making saw dust! : )

For the record, the amount of stock you carry is mind-boggling. Do whatever you need to do to make sure you don't fatigue / burn out on the whole thing, eh? Add some profit, solicit some help (wish I was closer, though I wouldn't be much good for anything beyond putting stuff on the top shelf), trim the catalog mercilessly, have someone build you a dozen 1099s, whatever. Thanks for all you do, all that you make possible.

Now, get with posting the new designs! (Kidding! ; ) )
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post #10602 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 01:11 PM
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Wow, I think that is exactly what most people want, to compare the SEOS designs against the Klipsch. Your SEOS review/Klipsch shootout might become the standard post everyone wants to read. Make sure you put it in its own thread, so we can find it. It would get buried in the archives if you put it in the 10,000 post Hey Guys thread.

The SEOS speakers might be comparable to the Klipsch, but why are you swapping out your Klipsch? Any Klipsch reference system ought to be giving you some pretty great sound.
Mostly due to size constraints and the fact I want to DIY. I realize I may not get a huge boost over the Klipsch, but I've had them since around 2000 (RF3 ii) and It's just time for a change. I actually pulled the speakers out of the towers and build large bookshelf (similar size to Pure) cabinets to run the Klipsch. It's obviously not idea though. The sound isn't bad though!

I've built (2) SI 18s and (1) Dayton 15 and have had a lot of fun doing so.

I really wanted a 1099 as a center - which has to be better than the Klipsch RC3 ii's single horn w/ (2) 6" center channel. I'd rather have all 1099s or tempest, but this is going into an in-wall entertainment center that will not accept speakers almost 40" tall. So I'm going to use the Pure 10s to timbre match the 1099.

In the long run, it's not a huge amount of money and I like building things for fun. So it's a win win

And since this is a shared space, my goal ultimately is to get something like the V8/10 or Fusion 8 as my surround/rears and embed them into the wall and cover them with art.

DIY Custom-Printed Movie Poster Acoustic Panels - cheap!

Right now I have RS3 iis bolted onto the wall and it's not the most aesthetic looking. My wife is a peach and puts up with me and my toys, but I'd rather it look good and I think the diy custom panels would be awesome to hide speakers.

Long term we will probably move in the next 3-4 years and we will get a place with a basement and have a full on theater with much larger speakers.
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post #10603 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 01:35 PM
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Wow, I think that is exactly what most people want, to compare the SEOS designs against the Klipsch. Your SEOS review/Klipsch shootout might become the standard post everyone wants to read. Make sure you put it in its own thread, so we can find it. It would get buried in the archives if you put it in the 10,000 post Hey Guys thread.

The SEOS speakers might be comparable to the Klipsch, but why are you swapping out your Klipsch? Any Klipsch reference system ought to be giving you some pretty great sound.
I have the Klipsch Reference RB-75 system. I replaced it with SEOS12/TD12M's. I would never go back.

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...eference-rb-75

They're very different speakers. I like the natural response of the seos speakers much more. I find the highs on the klipsch to be a bit harsh or bright whereas the seos are richer and smoother sounding. The Klipsch are excellent with acoustic music, but not with classical or digital and the SEOS/TD12M's sound very good with every style I've thrown at them. I'm not saying the Klipsch are bad, but I prefer the SEOS/TD12M's.

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post #10604 of 11167 Old 06-27-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post
Great news about the two full ranges. Though I do wonder if you do yourself a bit of a disservice with the occasional tease, at least with we indecisive types who then think, "maybe I'll wait and see what the new models look like..." rather than, you know, making saw dust! : )

For the record, the amount of stock you carry is mind-boggling.
Well that's another odd thing about the way it's all set up......I don't need to push any model or sell any of them to make a house payment. When you take out all the reasons other audio companies push their gear, things seem very strange to the person looking at the site. I've talked people out of buying bigger more expensive kits many times and later they thank me, but don't understand why I did it.

People can sit on the side lines and wait for things that might eventually come, but you can say that about any product out there. What I need to do is make up some emblems for the kits so they look more 'professional'. That way they can likely be sold easier if someone wanted to upgrade at a later time.


As for the amount of stock? Yes, it's getting pretty mind boggling and I'm starting to worry about where things need to go. This has gotten much bigger over the past year and not many people realize how much room all of that stuff takes up. I was very lucky to have an extra building next to my landscaping company that wasn't being used or we wouldn't be talking about any of this right now.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
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post #10605 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 08:39 AM
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I can't even imagine how much you have invested in this undertaking...direct, indirect, and opportunity costs.
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post #10606 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 12:04 PM
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DEAD HORSE!!!! Let Erick name them as he will and we either buy them or not.
I suggest "dead horse" as name for an upcoming speaker design. Because you can beat on them all day long...
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post #10607 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
Wow, I think that is exactly what most people want, to compare the SEOS designs against the Klipsch. Your SEOS review/Klipsch shootout might become the standard post everyone wants to read. Make sure you put it in its own thread, so we can find it. It would get buried in the archives if you put it in the 10,000 post Hey Guys thread.

The SEOS speakers might be comparable to the Klipsch, but why are you swapping out your Klipsch? Any Klipsch reference system ought to be giving you some pretty great sound.

The SEOS cannot be compared to klipsch. My new alchemy LCR blow my old klipsch ref out of the water. I thought I loved klipsch's sound but the first time I turned these guys on, that opinion changed immediately. The only thing I miss is my new speakers are a bit lacking in the mid bass area(comparatively) but that's only because I don't have any subs to go along with them.
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post #10608 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 03:53 PM
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Quick question....I'm finishing up our 13x28x8 theater and wonder what speaker kits to get for L,C,R? Listening position will be 12-14 feet from front. I'd like to be able to hit ref level without pushing it to the max. Amps aren't a problem. Am I looking at a 15" design, or will a 12" or even 10" do it? Thanks in advance.

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post #10609 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quick question....I'm finishing up our 13x28x8 theater and wonder what speaker kits to get for L,C,R? Listening position will be 12-14 feet from front. I'd like to be able to hit ref level without pushing it to the max. Amps aren't a problem. Am I looking at a 15" design, or will a 12" or even 10" do it? Thanks in advance.
Tempests.
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post #10610 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 04:26 PM
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Many thanks. Been looking hard at those. I'm about to start slinging drywall, so getting close. They will reside behind an AT screen.

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post #10611 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 05:00 PM
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Many thanks. Been looking hard at those. I'm about to start slinging drywall, so getting close. They will reside behind an AT screen.
Three of those up front and you will be raving.
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post #10612 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 08:14 PM
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Hi Eddie.

Eddie. Seems like budget isn't the problem here?

At that distance you'll hit reference at 80hz with any of the 12", 15", or dual 10" kits. Because you said reference 'easily' I'd shy away from the single 10" kits, unless you crossed to a sub higher than 80 or used MBMs. And if you wanna cross lower, I'd be looking at the new Fusion 15 seriously. Especially your comment about amps, I'm guessing you have a lot of power on tap. So the 15 is even more attractive as it takes quite a bit of power to eat up its excursion.

If you didn't have much amp power I'd steer you towards the 1099 because of it very high sensitivity. And the Tempest offers a nice form factor with easy assembly if you want a flat pack and pre-built XO.

Overall based on what you said I'm gonna cast a vote towards the Fusion 15 unless you offer more feedback that could sway my reasoning. I'm not sure the Fusion 15 is listed but since you're still building you do have time.
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post #10613 of 11167 Old 06-29-2014, 11:59 PM
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If I buy a pair of volt 10 for surround duty, my left back wall is angled towards the center . can I buy a swivel bracket to mount to the volt so I can angle the surround to the proper location ?

Using the surround slanted enclosure would be close to 30lbs and most brackets I see only hold up to 20lbs.

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post #10614 of 11167 Old 06-30-2014, 12:33 AM
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A small lcd wall mount bracket would work

http://www.monoprice.com/Category?c_id=109&cp_id=10828
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post #10615 of 11167 Old 06-30-2014, 12:46 AM
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Found these ones
http://m.ebay.com/itm?itemId=160817657948&roken=KOS4oV
A little less noticeable
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post #10616 of 11167 Old 07-01-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post
I suggest "dead horse" as name for an upcoming speaker design. Because you can beat on them all day long...
Not bad. But I've already settled on naming my next "ChickMagnet".
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post #10617 of 11167 Old 07-03-2014, 09:39 AM
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Question: How well do the SEOS kits like the Fusion series do with recreating sound stage depth?

Years ago I recall BMW 801 Matrix speakers doing a spectacular job of creating a deep layered sound stage with orchestral music.
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post #10618 of 11167 Old 07-04-2014, 10:00 AM
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Erich...saw that 10-99 flat packs are now available...as well as the Elusive 1099 itself!!!!
Would you elaborate on exactly what is included?...(4 sides, back, 2 dividers I am assuming...are any panels "dadoed"?


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post #10619 of 11167 Old 07-04-2014, 10:26 AM
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The flat packs are pretty much like all the other ones. Rabbet joints all around for the sides, top, and bottom to fit in along with dados for the 2 internal panels that divide up the chambers into 3 individual sections. It's a simple box actually.

For their size, the price seemed pretty good compared to the Tempest box. But the Tempest has the double thick baffle and maybe those took more time to cut because of the intricate internal braces. They both weigh nearly the same, so I guess they use pretty much the same amount of wood too.

The boxes can easily be cut shallower if anyone wanted to do that. I could probably make an option for shaving them back 1" or so if anyone needed them shallower.
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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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post #10620 of 11167 Old 07-04-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronlinkous View Post
The SEOS cannot be compared to klipsch. My new alchemy LCR blow my old klipsch ref out of the water. I thought I loved klipsch's sound but the first time I turned these guys on, that opinion changed immediately. The only thing I miss is my new speakers are a bit lacking in the mid bass area(comparatively) but that's only because I don't have any subs to go along with them.
This is the same story every time I've heard the Klipsch brought up, and since I orignally was shopping the Klipsch Reference Series vs the SEOS I specifically have looked for those comparisons.

The best way I've been able to sum up comparisons after looking at them for so long is that once you build an SEOS build you won't look back at most commercial brands.
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