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post #10651 of 11387 Old 07-11-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
From what I understand the fusion 12 is just as good as the 15 until you're hitting the max SPL's, then the 15 can take the mid bass up a few dB compared to the 12. That was the old Fusion 15 though, I'm sure the SEOS 15 is a bit better than the 12 now too.
I see this a lot but I always saw it opposite since the 15 has a lower crossover point which means the CD needs play lower. At a certain point doesn't that limit output of the CD? Can the CD with a low crossover still exceed output of the 15 can do in the frequencies below it ?

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post #10652 of 11387 Old 07-11-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
So a horizontal 1099 is right out for the center. I'm trying to imagine a Tempest as a center above my TV. TV is a 62" DLP, so depth isn't an issue at all, but it will be pretty high up.
here's a pic of my 1099's. The tower's are 54" tall and i have the waveguide around 39"-40". the center is below my 61" DLP.
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post #10653 of 11387 Old 07-11-2014, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
What I want to know is which design gives the widest horizontal performance. My seating area is wide, and I'd need speakers that give good frequency response on a +-45 degree cone for all three fronts. So a horizontal 1099 is right out for the center. I'm trying to imagine a Tempest as a center above my TV. TV is a 62" DLP, so depth isn't an issue at all, but it will be pretty high up. An 88 Special would be more practical, but I don't know how the side-by-side woofers work out is the listening area is near 90 degrees wide.
Again I would say any speaker that's using the SEOS-15 waveguide will give you a larger/wider soundstage over a speaker using the SEOS-12 waveguide.
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post #10654 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ross Kirshner View Post
…….also any updates on the new fusion 15?
I'm wondering about this as well. I suspect I'm getting really close to ordering some mains, and I've been holding off waiting on this update. Anxious to see how these turn out.

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post #10655 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 01:49 PM
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What driver does the Fusion 15 use ?
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post #10656 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
What driver does the Fusion 15 use ?
its Eminence.
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post #10657 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
its Eminence.
Like the big brother to the same ones used currently in FUSION 8 and FUSION 12 ?

I'm curious to hear about the FUSION 15 and if it sounds as good as the FUSION 12 or different and how the different crossover point effects output and sound quality.

I was leaning towards FUSION 12 but perhaps the 15 with the 15 waveguide is a smarter move for me.

Another question: Is there any other models that would be positioned above this due soon ? ALPHA 12 or ALPHA 15 ?

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post #10658 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 02:58 PM
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Yes,
I pm'd mtg90 for info and he gave me great info. If your really curious I would message him. He will be updating this thread but the guy has a tonne on his plate. Busy designing speakers for us for free.
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post #10659 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 03:01 PM
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I hate to PM and bother him. I'll be patient and just wait for the update. I lost a pair of pro audio speakers in a basement flood and I have a claim going... I will replace them with something and I am not sure what yet.

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post #10660 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Yes,
…….
Which question were you answering?

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post #10661 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Which question were you answering?
big brother to fusion. driver is similar to one in tempest, but bigger.
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post #10662 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 07:50 PM
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Gotcha! Thanks.

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post #10663 of 11387 Old 07-13-2014, 08:23 PM
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The woofer that best fit the Fusion line was the 15" Deltalite and the design has been completed. There was some thought about using the Kappalite, but we just aren't sure there's a good enough reason to justify the $70 price difference.

The first idea was to use a different Eminence 15" because it's a fairly smooth performer and can dig pretty deep in a small enclosure. It sounds great, but 2 things that kept it from the Fusion line: it's a 4 ohm woofer and the lower cost put it too close to the Fusion-12. Plus I'm not sure how many people would be wanting/needing the Fusion models for full range use versus being used with a subwoofer.
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post #10664 of 11387 Old 07-14-2014, 05:50 AM
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How low does the new Fusion have usable output?

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post #10665 of 11387 Old 07-14-2014, 05:55 AM
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post #10666 of 11387 Old 07-15-2014, 04:30 PM
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Will the new SEOS 15 Fusion also be 2.5 cubic feet, like the old one? And which Deltalite will be used?

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #10667 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 11:09 AM
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I sent this to chalugadp in a PM I guess it is time to share this since both of these designs are done.


I'll need to explain the situation in the rallying thread so everyone knows what is going on with the 15's.

What was going to be the Fusion-15 V2 and the speaker in the video I had posted is probably going to be the Karma-15. That one uses the Eminence CA154, it's an inexpensive woofer that performs exceptionally well for its price and the reason why we were originally thinking it should be the Fusion-15. The problem lies in that we could not find a decent 15" driver for less to use in a Karma-15 and so we decided to bump it down to the Karma-15 even though it performs well enough to use as the Fusion-15 and use another better (more expensive ) driver for the Fusion-15.

The Fusion-15 will use the Deltalite 2515 which has lower inductance and measurably lower distortion compared to the CA154 in the Karma-15.

Both of these drivers share the same cone and dust cap so their raw frequency response is quite close, as such the crossover circuits are very similar though not quite the same because the CA154 is a 4 ohm driver and the higher inductance plays a roll in what parts I need in the crossover to get the transfer function and steep roll off I was looking for. The final frequency response of these two designs are very closely matched about +-1dB of each other and are voiced the same. Above the crossover they are pretty much identical and the crossover frequency on these two are right around 1000 Hz.

The CA154 in the Karma-15 will dig deeper in a set volume then the Fusion-15's 2515. Its efficiency (not sensitivity) is lower, about 96dB, being a 4 ohm design its 2.83v sensitivity (+3dB) is the same as the Fusion-15 which is 99dB. In the ~2.9cuft test box I have here the Karma-15 will dig down to the mid 40's, about the same as the Tempest. The Fusion-15 trades some extension for the higher efficiency and gets to the mid 50's in that volume. Depending upon room gain you could end up with useable extension 10-15hz lower.

If you're really interested in going full range with the 15" designs then I would suggest using a larger enclosure, the 2.9cuft enclosure is really at the bottom edge of what is reasonable for these drivers but if crossing to subs around 60-80hz you really don't need anything much larger. If you do want something full range these would be prime candidates for a tower enclosure, doing well all the way up to 8-10cuft tuned to the mid-upper 30's with 5-6 cuft tuned to 36-44hz being a happy medium.

I would not next expect large tower flat packs or baffles for these designs but it would not be hard to add a blank panel the same width as the baffle below it to make a taller baffle for use in a tower. I'd love to see someone try and build something like the JBL M2 or S9800/9900, that is something I have wanted to try and emulate with the SEOS-15 and 15" woofer for a while.
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post #10668 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 11:22 AM
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Matt, looking foward to seeing people build these. The SEOS15 size of waveguide has been the waveguide of interest since the conception of this thread. It'll be good to see it finally mainstread

Never looked at the CA154 until now. The eminence spec sheet says Sensitivity is 96.9db but their SPL curve shows about 96.5db/w/m. I'm assuming they didn't use the term sensitivity correctly. I noticed this on another Eminence product recently. Perhaps they need some education over there
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post #10669 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 02:37 PM
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Group Buy Update:

We're getting close to the last call on the group buy for the horns and waveguides from Poland. The pallet is about 75% filled right now, possibly more. So if you're holding off, don't wait too much longer or you might be out of luck.

Not sure how many more will be done......
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post #10670 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 02:49 PM
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mtg90, great info on the fusion and karma 15! I've been waiting for the update on them. BTW, are you guys planning to publish off-axis frequency response plots for these updated speakers as well? I will have to have that data to plan room treatments, and I'm not confident in my ability to take accurate measurements.


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Group Buy Update:

We're getting close to the last call on the group buy for the horns and waveguides from Poland. The pallet is about 75% filled right now, possibly more. So if you're holding off, don't wait too much longer or you might be out of luck.

Not sure how many more will be done......
Sorry for what I suspect is a bad question, but what is this group buy for?

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post #10671 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 02:55 PM
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The group buy is for the fiberglass horns and larger SEOS waveguides that weren't done in plastic. Like the SEOS-18, SEOS-22, SEOS-24, etc. As most here already know, I don't make anything on these group buys from Poland. The only extra cost would be if a funky sized cardboard shipping box was needed that I don't have. I will still package them for free.
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post #10672 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 03:00 PM
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Ah, gotcha. Sorry, this thread feels like drinking from a fire hose sometimes. I try to keep up
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post #10673 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Matt, looking foward to seeing people build these. The SEOS15 size of waveguide has been the waveguide of interest since the conception of this thread. It'll be good to see it finally mainstread

Never looked at the CA154 until now. The eminence spec sheet says Sensitivity is 96.9db but their SPL curve shows about 96.5db/w/m. I'm assuming they didn't use the term sensitivity correctly. I noticed this on another Eminence product recently. Perhaps they need some education over there
it will come down to fusion 15 or your 1099. three days to hear those babies
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post #10674 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
it will come down to fusion 15 or your 1099. three days to hear those babies
You won't be impressed with the 1099's. You need diamond ears for those

It feels like 3 weeks from now...I'm so looking forward to everyone's listening impression for ALL the speakers!

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post #10675 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 03:46 PM
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it will come down to fusion 15 or your 1099. three days to hear those babies
Chal, I might have missed something but it sounds like the new sentinels will also be at the GTG, can you please confirm?

thanks
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post #10676 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 04:00 PM
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Chal, I might have missed something but it sounds like the new sentinels will also be at the GTG, can you please confirm?

thanks
no unfortunately not. tux is bringing two models, 1099 and his dual 12 design. along with tempest that's the 3 diy models will hear.

I've narrowed down to 1099 and fusion 15 . I'm hoping that the 1099 is a combination of the sweet mids of the statement speakers with the directivity of seos and ability to play loud of seos.
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post #10677 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
I sent this to chalugadp in a PM I guess it is time to share this since both of these designs are done.


I'll need to explain the situation in the rallying thread so everyone knows what is going on with the 15's.

What was going to be the Fusion-15 V2 and the speaker in the video I had posted is probably going to be the Karma-15. That one uses the Eminence CA154, it's an inexpensive woofer that performs exceptionally well for its price and the reason why we were originally thinking it should be the Fusion-15. The problem lies in that we could not find a decent 15" driver for less to use in a Karma-15 and so we decided to bump it down to the Karma-15 even though it performs well enough to use as the Fusion-15 and use another better (more expensive ) driver for the Fusion-15.

The Fusion-15 will use the Deltalite 2515 which has lower inductance and measurably lower distortion compared to the CA154 in the Karma-15.

Both of these drivers share the same cone and dust cap so their raw frequency response is quite close, as such the crossover circuits are very similar though not quite the same because the CA154 is a 4 ohm driver and the higher inductance plays a roll in what parts I need in the crossover to get the transfer function and steep roll off I was looking for. The final frequency response of these two designs are very closely matched about +-1dB of each other and are voiced the same. Above the crossover they are pretty much identical and the crossover frequency on these two are right around 1000 Hz.

The CA154 in the Karma-15 will dig deeper in a set volume then the Fusion-15's 2515. Its efficiency (not sensitivity) is lower, about 96dB, being a 4 ohm design its 2.83v sensitivity (+3dB) is the same as the Fusion-15 which is 99dB. In the ~2.9cuft test box I have here the Karma-15 will dig down to the mid 40's, about the same as the Tempest. The Fusion-15 trades some extension for the higher efficiency and gets to the mid 50's in that volume. Depending upon room gain you could end up with useable extension 10-15hz lower.

If you're really interested in going full range with the 15" designs then I would suggest using a larger enclosure, the 2.9cuft enclosure is really at the bottom edge of what is reasonable for these drivers but if crossing to subs around 60-80hz you really don't need anything much larger. If you do want something full range these would be prime candidates for a tower enclosure, doing well all the way up to 8-10cuft tuned to the mid-upper 30's with 5-6 cuft tuned to 36-44hz being a happy medium.

I would not next expect large tower flat packs or baffles for these designs but it would not be hard to add a blank panel the same width as the baffle below it to make a taller baffle for use in a tower. I'd love to see someone try and build something like the JBL M2 or S9800/9900, that is something I have wanted to try and emulate with the SEOS-15 and 15" woofer for a while.
How does the Deltalite v2 compare to the B&C v1 fusion-15. With the larger waveguide, I would assume the v2 version measures better.
Really want to know how the mid-bass compares between the 2 versions as well...
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post #10678 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
no unfortunately not. tux is bringing two models, 1099 and his dual 12 design. along with tempest that's the 3 diy models will hear.

I've narrowed down to 1099 and fusion 15 . I'm hoping that the 1099 is a combination of the sweet mids of the statement speakers with the directivity of seos and ability to play loud of seos.
Thanks Chal, I really look forward to reading all the feedback on the speakers at the GTG. I absolutely love my Tempests and it would be great to hear how they stack up against the other speakers.
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post #10679 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The group buy is for the fiberglass horns and larger SEOS waveguides that weren't done in plastic. Like the SEOS-18, SEOS-22, SEOS-24, etc. As most here already know, I don't make anything on these group buys from Poland. The only extra cost would be if a funky sized cardboard shipping box was needed that I don't have. I will still package them for free.
Any plans to work on plastic versions of other seos sizes? For some reason I think the seos 6&8 sizes would be cool.
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post #10680 of 11387 Old 07-16-2014, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Thanks Chal, I really look forward to reading all the feedback on the speakers at the GTG. I absolutely love my Tempests and it would be great to hear how they stack up against the other speakers.

The 1099's for the GTG will be arriving at my place tomorrow, so I'll have a little time to hear them before the GTG to compare with the Tempest and 228HT's.
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