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post #10681 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
The 1099's for the GTG will be arriving at my place tomorrow, so I'll have a little time to hear them before the GTG to compare with the Tempest and 228HT's.
That's awesome Joe, wish I could attend your GTG. JTRs have always been my dream speakers and it would be interesting to hear your impressions in comparison to the other speakers. Right now, I am very interested in the 1099s and the new Sentinels so feedback on these will be most appreciated.
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post #10682 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 06:29 PM
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The 1099's for the GTG will be arriving at my place tomorrow, so I'll have a little time to hear them before the GTG to compare with the Tempest and 228HT's.
no feedback beforeni hear them. Im jealous
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post #10683 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 06:36 PM
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The 1099's for the GTG will be arriving at my place tomorrow, so I'll have a little time to hear them before the GTG to compare with the Tempest and 228HT's.
Looking forward to hear your listening impression & comparison between those 3 speakers
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post #10684 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 07:30 PM
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Don't spill the beans early Joe, and colour our expectations!
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post #10685 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 08:04 PM
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Don't spill the beans early Joe, and colour our expectations!
Of course not but I know that I can't WAIT to hear the 1099's.
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post #10686 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 08:19 PM
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Of course not but I know that I can't WAIT to hear the 1099's.
feel free to text me if there just plain awesome
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post #10687 of 12630 Old 07-16-2014, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I sent this to chalugadp in a PM I guess it is time to share this since both of these designs are done.


I'll need to explain the situation in the rallying thread so everyone knows what is going on with the 15's.

What was going to be the Fusion-15 V2 and the speaker in the video I had posted is probably going to be the Karma-15. That one uses the Eminence CA154, it's an inexpensive woofer that performs exceptionally well for its price and the reason why we were originally thinking it should be the Fusion-15. The problem lies in that we could not find a decent 15" driver for less to use in a Karma-15 and so we decided to bump it down to the Karma-15 even though it performs well enough to use as the Fusion-15 and use another better (more expensive ) driver for the Fusion-15.

The Fusion-15 will use the Deltalite 2515 which has lower inductance and measurably lower distortion compared to the CA154 in the Karma-15.

Both of these drivers share the same cone and dust cap so their raw frequency response is quite close, as such the crossover circuits are very similar though not quite the same because the CA154 is a 4 ohm driver and the higher inductance plays a roll in what parts I need in the crossover to get the transfer function and steep roll off I was looking for. The final frequency response of these two designs are very closely matched about +-1dB of each other and are voiced the same. Above the crossover they are pretty much identical and the crossover frequency on these two are right around 1000 Hz.

The CA154 in the Karma-15 will dig deeper in a set volume then the Fusion-15's 2515. Its efficiency (not sensitivity) is lower, about 96dB, being a 4 ohm design its 2.83v sensitivity (+3dB) is the same as the Fusion-15 which is 99dB. In the ~2.9cuft test box I have here the Karma-15 will dig down to the mid 40's, about the same as the Tempest. The Fusion-15 trades some extension for the higher efficiency and gets to the mid 50's in that volume. Depending upon room gain you could end up with useable extension 10-15hz lower.

If you're really interested in going full range with the 15" designs then I would suggest using a larger enclosure, the 2.9cuft enclosure is really at the bottom edge of what is reasonable for these drivers but if crossing to subs around 60-80hz you really don't need anything much larger. If you do want something full range these would be prime candidates for a tower enclosure, doing well all the way up to 8-10cuft tuned to the mid-upper 30's with 5-6 cuft tuned to 36-44hz being a happy medium.

I would not next expect large tower flat packs or baffles for these designs but it would not be hard to add a blank panel the same width as the baffle below it to make a taller baffle for use in a tower. I'd love to see someone try and build something like the JBL M2 or S9800/9900, that is something I have wanted to try and emulate with the SEOS-15 and 15" woofer for a while.

at some point, could you post or pm the frequency sweeps against distortion. i'm quite curious. is the difference cheap magnet large coil vs expensive magnet small coil or is there something else?

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post #10688 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 08:02 AM
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I've been checking the DIYSoundgroup page daily…. ok, more than once a day, for updates Really looking forward to seeing what you guys have in store! It's truly amazing just how much time and effort you guys put into this!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #10689 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 08:18 AM
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I'm going to try to get photos of the dual 8" woofer models up this weekend. I wish I had a bit more time in the day.

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post #10690 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I'm going to try to get photos of the dual 8" woofer models up this weekend. I wish I had a bit more time in the day.
I completely understand that! I've been hoping for 36 hour days for a couple years now!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #10691 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 09:30 AM
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I'm going to try to get photos of the dual 8" woofer models up this weekend. I wish I had a bit more time in the day.
I must have missed something. What models are these other than 88-Special?
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post #10692 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 03:35 PM
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They're the models I'm going to try and get photos and info of this weekend.

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post #10693 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 05:38 PM
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Any news on the alpha line ? What's the plan for that ?

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #10694 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 06:50 PM
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Still debating on how the Alpha line should be done. I've got too many ideas and can't narrow things down.

One part of my brain says to make them all 2 way designs using higher end parts with higher end boxes, yet still used with subwoofers. But 2 way designs like that need center channel options. Not so easy.

One part of my brain says skip that idea and make sure they all can be run full range. That's really nice for 2 channel stereo listening, but would cut down on sensitivity and they'd need big enclosures. Great for just a nice pair of speakers in the living room, but center channels are pretty much out, so they wouldn't help someone looking for a theater set up with higher end drivers.

One part of my brain says skip those ideas and make all the Alphas 3 way designs and it doesn't really matter if the higher end B&C, FaitalPro, or A&E woofers are used in them.....they're 3 ways that can be converted to center channels and likely run full range killing 2 birds with one stone.

But if they are 3 ways that can be converted to center channels, then should the higher end drivers be used? That would make them quite expensive. But if the 3 ways don't use those higher end parts....what the heck am I going to do with the sweet FL-450 compression drivers?

Doing a high end 3 way and a lower priced 3 way of the same size was also an option, but we're really getting into a big increase in kits/parts.


Then I thought about scrapping the entire Alpha line idea and just doing a Cinema line.

Yes, I have drawings of every single idea listed above, along with driver combos for every idea. At last count I was probably up to about 15-20 more speaker designs......which likely isn't going to happen. So things need to be narrowed down. See the problem?

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post #10695 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 07:00 PM
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They're the models I'm going to try and get photos and info of this weekend.
Touché.
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post #10696 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Still debating on how the Alpha line should be done. I've got too many ideas and can't narrow things down.

One part of my brain says to make them all 2 way designs using higher end parts with higher end boxes, yet still used with subwoofers. But 2 way designs like that need center channel options. Not so easy.

One part of my brain says skip that idea and make sure they all can be run full range. That's really nice for 2 channel stereo listening, but would cut down on sensitivity and they'd need big enclosures. Great for just a nice pair of speakers in the living room, but center channels are pretty much out, so they wouldn't help someone looking for a theater set up with higher end drivers.

One part of my brain says skip those ideas and make all the Alphas 3 way designs and it doesn't really matter if the higher end B&C, FaitalPro, or A&E woofers are used in them.....they're 3 ways that can be converted to center channels and likely run full range killing 2 birds with one stone.

But if they are 3 ways that can be converted to center channels, then should the higher end drivers be used? That would make them quite expensive. But if the 3 ways don't use those higher end parts....what the heck am I going to do with the sweet FL-450 compression drivers?

Doing a high end 3 way and a lower priced 3 way of the same size was also an option, but we're really getting into a big increase in kits/parts.


Then I thought about scrapping the entire Alpha line idea and just doing a Cinema line.

Yes, I have drawings of every single idea listed above, along with driver combos for every idea. At last count I was probably up to about 15-20 more speaker designs......which likely isn't going to happen. So things need to be narrowed down. See the problem?
What about the seos Maximus-18??
Will this be available as a kit of some sort??
Would make a great Alpha-18!!
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post #10697 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 07:16 PM
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Erich, I think you do need one really nice full range hifi sorta thing for people to use in their living rooms.
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post #10698 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 07:35 PM
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I'd like to see a 1299 and 1599. Coming in around say 600 and 1 k each. Make people pay and then you order parts so your not stuck with cost up front.
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post #10699 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 07:42 PM
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Then I thought about scrapping the entire Alpha line idea and just doing a Cinema line.
That's one way to approach it: a Cinema line (2-ways, including centers, meant for use with subs, moderate pricing as 5 - 7 channels may be needed, higher $ giving higher output for bigger rooms) and a Music line (2-way and/or 3-way, usable full range, with smaller models suited to smaller rooms and/or budgets and larger/pricier models offering deeper bass higher output levels, higher end drivers used as with 2 channels being the emphasis they are more easily afforded). End users could decide to use a Music speaker for cinema or vice versa, of course, depending on their situations.

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post #10700 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 08:28 PM
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I'd like to see a 1299 and 1599. Coming in around say 600 and 1 k each. Make people pay and then you order parts so your not stuck with cost up front.
If a 1899 or 2199 comes out, I'll be the first to place the order...

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #10701 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 08:53 PM
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Plans for dual 8's, 10's, 12's, and 15's were drawn up over a year ago. They were some of the very first ideas. But they can get very big and expensive, so they got put on the back burner. And with dual woofers and more internal parts, it's harder to keep them in stock like the 1099 was.

There are ways around some of that, but every design costs thousands of dollars to get up and running. For example, if something like the Maximus-18 was done as a true kit, just keeping 10 of them in stock would be around $10k for that one design. Maximus-15 wouldn't be much cheaper. None of that means bigger things aren't coming though. I'm just mentioning why kits like that take longer to get done.

The reason some kits came down was so more focus can temporarily be put on the Fusion Line and getting center channel's and/or 3 ways done (and a couple other things). Believe it or not, I have drawn up a fairly well organized path for all of this and tweak it from time to time. It's still a big undertaking, but things will start to fall into place soon.
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post #10702 of 12630 Old 07-18-2014, 11:08 PM
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If a 1899 or 2199 comes out, I'll be the first to place the order...
if 1899 or 2199 comes out, I'll use it to replace my Tempest as LCR and Tempests will going to be used as surrounds
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post #10703 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 04:03 AM
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Erich, I think you do need one really nice full range hifi sorta thing for people to use in their living rooms.
I totally second this.

I would like to see a full range speakers using the 1099 as template... basically taller cabinet, better drivers, tuned down to 20hz... and if can't achieve 20hz, then maybe 25hz.. and if not, then 1299 drivers. Beyond that, it might just get too big for most people. (but what do i know when we are talking about people on this forum... haha).

Then the regular 1099 can be used as center channel.

If all this can be achieved with a 95dB sensitivity, it'll still be one of the best full range speakers around, can be driven by a receiver...
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post #10704 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 04:05 AM
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if 1899 or 2199 comes out, I'll use it to replace my Tempest as LCR and Tempests will going to be used as surrounds
2499, active speaker with built in 4000 watts DSP amps, weighing 500 lbs each!!! haha
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post #10705 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 05:34 AM
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Scrap Alpha and make cinema and Karma. Big designs only need a prototype made and then just supply the crossover parts or assembled crossover option. Dont want to see the designs go in so many directions that it becomes a full on job for 10 people and a HUGE overhead. Unless thats what your planning on doing.

I dont think you would have a problem selling FL-450 CD's. Can these be used on the 88 Special?
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post #10706 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 06:21 AM
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I would like to see a full range speakers using the 1099 as template... basically taller cabinet, better drivers, tuned down to 20hz... and if can't achieve 20hz, then maybe 25hz.. and if not, then 1299 drivers.
If all this can be achieved with a 95dB sensitivity, it'll still be one of the best full range speakers around, can be driven by a receiver...
That can't really be done. There are no 10" high end woofers that are going to do good tuned to 20hz. If they are pro woofers, good luck even getting strong out put around 40hz. Same holds true for most 12" woofers as well.

The designers will back me up when I say that if there's a speaker layout or idea, I've probably already drawn it up. I'd like to do some high end designs, but they really don't move very fast. Plus anyone spending $1000+ on a speaker might not want it to be in kit form with a MDF cabinet. So once things get to that level, completed cabinets/crossovers might be a better option.

As mentioned, my current goal is to get some 3 way designs out there so we have more center channel options. The general layout idea is done, I just haven't decided if they should use the more expensive parts, stuff like the current Fusion Line, or a blend of both. Doing one with expensive parts and another version more like the Fusion Line requires double everything, and double work for designers which likely won't happen. So we have to make decisions. We can't just remove one driver and drop in another without new boxes and crossover changes.

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post #10707 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 06:24 AM
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I dont think you would have a problem selling FL-450 CD's. Can these be used on the 88 Special?
They can be used with any of the designs, but they'd require crossover changes. Crossover changes pretty much mean you might as well start a whole new speaker design at that point.

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post #10708 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 06:27 AM
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I myself am not to worried about crossover designing. Though it is new to me I am willing to take that risk if the reward is a better CD. Either way I look forward to hearing more about the FL CD in the future. (Price)
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post #10709 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 06:31 AM
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Scrap Alpha and make cinema and Karma. Big designs only need a prototype made and then just supply the crossover parts or assembled crossover option. Dont want to see the designs go in so many directions that it becomes a full on job for 10 people and a HUGE overhead. Unless thats what your planning on doing.

I dont think you would have a problem selling FL-450 CD's. Can these be used on the 88 Special?
No need for alpha line but I would like to see a Maximus-18!!
Instead of keeping all parts in stock for the Maximus line, don't stock the speakers which come to around $500. The waveguides you are keeping in stock for other speakers as well as the fl-450 cd. No need for flat pack and the baffles could be made to order. Just keep an assembled crossover in stock. The minimum order would be a seos-15 waveguide, fl-450 cd , xover parts/assembled crossover and build instructions. When you add in the cost of stocking the baffles, flat pack and b&c speakers, your inventory cost goes way to high!!!
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post #10710 of 12630 Old 07-19-2014, 06:48 AM
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I myself am not to worried about crossover designing. Though it is new to me I am willing to take that risk if the reward is a better CD. Either way I look forward to hearing more about the FL CD in the future. (Price)
I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Switching out speaker parts without worrying about a crossover change would likely mean that the new one with more expensive parts will sound worse than the original speaker.

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