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DIY Speakers and Subs

Erich H's Avatar Erich H
08:01 AM Liked: 748
post #10711 of 11733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
No need for flat pack and the baffles could be made to order. Just keep an assembled crossover in stock. The minimum order would be a seos-15 waveguide, fl-450 cd , xover parts/assembled crossover and build instructions. When you add in the cost of stocking the baffles, flat pack and b&c speakers, your inventory cost goes way to high!!!
Baffles can't be made to order. The other components (like woofers) are bought in larger quantities for cheaper and the money saved goes to cover the "free shipping", packaging material, Paypal fees, etc. All of that would have to be added back in to a 'bare bones' kit.

The Maximus-18 is close to being done.
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
08:21 AM Liked: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Baffles can't be made to order. The other components (like woofers) are bought in larger quantities for cheaper and the money saved goes to cover the "free shipping", packaging material, Paypal fees, etc. All of that would have to be added back in to a 'bare bones' kit.

The Maximus-18 is close to being done.
Have you decided what kit form you will be offering the Maximus-18??
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
08:40 AM Liked: 748
post #10713 of 11733
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I'm not really sure what will even be done with the Maximus-18. Most people probably don't know what they'd be getting themselves into when buying a speaker that big. Two of them would be overkill for my entire shop with just 500 watts each.

The Maximus-15 would likely make the most sense for insane home owners and be much more manageable.
chrapladm's Avatar chrapladm
08:48 AM Liked: 103
post #10714 of 11733
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I like using great parts to start with and then building from there. SO if the FL-450 CD is better than another option I would like to use it over the other. I understand you cant just swap parts with an existing crossover. I was only saying I dont mind learning as I go because there is not an existing XO for that CD/WG.

What have you used the 450 on WG wise? SEOS15 and 12 or no?
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick
09:03 AM Liked: 1085
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EricH you do a great job, no one could criticize you on that. We are all appreciative of the things you do and how you do them.

Btw is the "h" part of your first name or the first of your last ? Or both ?
Face2's Avatar Face2
09:21 AM Liked: 60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
EricH you do a great job, no one could criticize you on that. We are all appreciative of the things you do and how you do them.

Btw is the "h" part of your first name or the first of your last ? Or both ?
Last letter of his first name.
tuxedocivic's Avatar tuxedocivic
09:27 AM Liked: 664
post #10717 of 11733
07-19-2014 | Posts: 5,101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
I like using great parts to start with and then building from there. SO if the FL-450 CD is better than another option I would like to use it over the other. I understand you cant just swap parts with an existing crossover. I was only saying I dont mind learning as I go because there is not an existing XO for that CD/WG.

What have you used the 450 on WG wise? SEOS15 and 12 or no?

When learning, you should use cheap parts. Not expensive ones. Also helps to learn on well behaved low efficiency drivers like a dome tweeter and 7" woofer with a cheap 6" waveguide. Maybe the vifa xt25 in one of Erich's denovo waveguides. Or a flush dome and 5.25" woofer. You'll be much more successful and less frustrated.
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
10:35 AM Liked: 42
post #10718 of 11733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I'm not really sure what will even be done with the Maximus-18. Most people probably don't know what they'd be getting themselves into when buying a speaker that big. Two of them would be overkill for my entire shop with just 500 watts each.

The Maximus-15 would likely make the most sense for insane home owners and be much more manageable.
I know a Maximus-15 would be insane too but the 18 version would truly be a statement piece!!!
I only plan on using 150 watts aside.
Look at how many on avs have insane bass setups with 4 or more subwoofers!!
mrevo2u's Avatar mrevo2u
10:38 AM Liked: 16
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What about going to an order based system (especially for the higher end models) where people can order the speaker with the understanding that it is a three-four week delivery time (paid in advance). You can wait until you have a few orders to amass all of the drivers/pieces. This would cut your inventory cost and allow you to use your customers' capital rather than yours. Somewhere in between a group buy and stocking everything.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick
10:49 AM Liked: 1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post
Last letter of his first name.
Actually I am looking now and it looks like both. This is correct? I don't recall the Capital H after the "erich" before. Is that new? Perhaps I am crazy? IDK... I just want to give him the respect of being correct, that's only reason I asked.
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
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Mfusick, the name has always looked like that on AVS. Face is correct, Erich H.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
I know a Maximus-15 would be insane too but the 18 version would truly be a statement piece!!!
I only plan on using 150 watts aside.
Look at how many on avs have insane bass setups with 4 or more subwoofers!!
Not to sound like a jerk or anything....but lots of people push for designs that they never have any intention of actually using. So all of that has to be taken into consideration. It's neat to see big speakers, but don't forget that someone is spending a lot of money and countless hours just so a picture can be taken and posted on the interwebz.

If you're only using 150 watts per speaker, there's seriously no reason at all to even be looking at the Maximus-18, or even the Maximus-15. It's just overkill on spending money if you won't even use 25% of the speaker.

A big brute speaker isn't necessarily designed to sound like a hifi speaker, so you might end up liking one of the smaller designs that was easier to work on and tweak the crossover more.
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
10:58 AM Liked: 748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrevo2u View Post
What about going to an order based system (especially for the higher end models) where people can order the speaker with the understanding that it is a three-four week delivery time (paid in advance). You can wait until you have a few orders to amass all of the drivers/pieces. This would cut your inventory cost and allow you to use your customers' capital rather than yours. Somewhere in between a group buy and stocking everything.
The current stuff is no big deal and it goes okay. The bigger speakers using the higher end drivers is the problem. Not just the actual money to order 10 at a time, but also how long it might take to get the stuff from the manufacturer.

There was a design I laid out using two 8" Faital Pro and two 8" B&C woofers. I wasn't sure which would sound better so I ordered both. The 8" B&C's came in about 1.5 months. The Faital Pros were ordered in Feb and I got those around June. Of course had I ordered 100, I could keep stock longer. But it's not worth it to me to put $15k just for small woofers in one design using higher end 8" speaker that might sit for over a year.

That's another reason why the Eminence woofers are used a lot more in the Fusion Line. I don't really have to worry about getting woofers, and I already have the compression drivers and waveguides.
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A
12:10 PM Liked: 270
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Is there an advantage to using one of the MTM designs or something like a 1099 in a dedicated home theater if the center will oriented vertically? That is, is an MTM oriented vertically preferred over something like a Fusion 15?
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick
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For your theater you'd want the wide horizontal dispersion to cover your seats, but less vertical to control floor and ceiling bounce. You'd want a wide sound stage to spread the sound over all your seats. The center channel alignments are more a matter of fit, less to worry about behind AT screen. You'd want an identical third tower.
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A
12:23 PM Liked: 270
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So the vertically oriented MTM (or 1099) provides better vertical dispersion control over the Fusion or Karma 15?
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
03:14 PM Liked: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Mfusick, the name has always looked like that on AVS. Face is correct, Erich H.




Not to sound like a jerk or anything....but lots of people push for designs that they never have any intention of actually using. So all of that has to be taken into consideration. It's neat to see big speakers, but don't forget that someone is spending a lot of money and countless hours just so a picture can be taken and posted on the interwebz.

If you're only using 150 watts per speaker, there's seriously no reason at all to even be looking at the Maximus-18, or even the Maximus-15. It's just overkill on spending money if you won't even use 25% of the speaker.

A big brute speaker isn't necessarily designed to sound like a hifi speaker, so you might end up liking one of the smaller designs that was easier to work on and tweak the crossover more.
Definitely would like a speaker with insane midbass like the Maximus-18!!!

If the Maximus-15 is a three-way fusion 15, I would interested in that too.

Not looking at less than 15" woofers for my front LR speakers...
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
03:34 PM Liked: 748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
Definitely would like a speaker with insane midbass like the Maximus-18!!!

If the Maximus-15 is a three-way fusion 15, I would interested in that too.

Not looking at less than 15" woofers for my front LR speakers...

I think you and I might have a different idea on 'insane midbass' with full range speakers. If you want that, I think you'll have to go up over your 150 watt per speaker amp that you mentioned.
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
03:59 PM Liked: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I think you and I might have a different idea on 'insane midbass' with full range speakers. If you want that, I think you'll have to go up over your 150 watt per speaker amp that you mentioned.
Not really as I assume the sensitivity of any maximus design would be over 98db/watt and 150 watts would give me around 120db dynamic range.

The amps I am looking at, have high damping ( > 800) for vise grip control of bass below 400hz which is where the mid-bass lives...

With a 15" woofer, plenty of mid-bass from these monoblocks would be enough for me...
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
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The Maximus-15 would not be too much smaller than the Maximus-18.

I am assuming the midrange would be two 8" woofers similar to the 88 special
which would put the height near 40".

How would this be more manageable??
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
05:18 PM Liked: 748
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Lots of assumptions in those last 2 posts my friend. Okay, only 2, but still.

The 15" 3-way would not use dual 8's. It would be over 2 cuft smaller, and cheaper. There's a big difference trying to package and ship a box that's 27" wide x 52" tall versus 21" x 44". That all adds up to being more manageable.

The Maximus-18 was a trial to see what's possible, what's needed for power, volume, tuning, etc.

People that love that 'punch you in the chest' feeling aren't just putting 150 watts into a speaker with a fairly flat response curve. Because by the time you got the midbass up high enough, your ears would be bleeding from the midrange driver and the compression driver. To get that feeling without blowing out your ears, you'd have to boost the lower end a few notches up, which really starts to pull wattage. That's why sub amps need so much more power than your receiver.
Boxozaxu's Avatar Boxozaxu
08:55 PM Liked: 92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
Any plans to work on plastic versions of other seos sizes? For some reason I think the seos 6&8 sizes would be cool.
Are there any documented SEOS 6 designs out there? I know I'm kinda doing a 180 from all this crazy Maximus 18 talk but I'm looking for another small speaker project and a SEOS 6 speaker sounds like fun. Even better would be using a nice colored fiberglass version. Don't worry Erich, I'll prepay for my purple SEOS.

I breezed through Mrkazador's Master Index of DIY Speaker Projects and couldn't find any.
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
09:18 PM Liked: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Lots of assumptions in those last 2 posts my friend. Okay, only 2, but still.

The 15" 3-way would not use dual 8's. It would be over 2 cuft smaller, and cheaper. There's a big difference trying to package and ship a box that's 27" wide x 52" tall versus 21" x 44". That all adds up to being more manageable.

The Maximus-18 was a trial to see what's possible, what's needed for power, volume, tuning, etc.

People that love that 'punch you in the chest' feeling aren't just putting 150 watts into a speaker with a fairly flat response curve. Because by the time you got the midbass up high enough, your ears would be bleeding from the midrange driver and the compression driver. To get that feeling without blowing out your ears, you'd have to boost the lower end a few notches up, which really starts to pull wattage. That's why sub amps need so much more power than your receiver.
Yes, we both have different views on mid-bass!!
What I am ideally looking for is a modern version of a klipsch cornwall speaker that has a 15" woofer in 6-7cf box with a horn top end. The sound is amazing to me as the bass fills the room at any volume to me. You don't need to turn it up to get that massive soundstage. This is my main goal for my LR from speakers and a seos 15 with a 15/18 inch woofer in a large 6-7cf box would be perfect to me. I am not fixed on 150 watts but that is a starting goal I can live with. If I need more wattage to get more midbass then in time I can get it.
I have been to many concerts and even homes with crazy loud high efficiency speakers like what you offer.
I have a very good idea what I am looking for and your Maximus line is very close to my ideal speaker:
Very high sensitivity full range-ish speaker that has great mid-bass and a very wide soundstage...
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
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You said you wanted "insane midbass". To me that means you want your living room to sound like the local dance club.
doc5150's Avatar doc5150
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I agree lol, just build a PA...tops, subs and a dbx driverack pa+ and his goal is achieved.
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
You said you wanted "insane midbass". To me that means you want your living room to sound like the local dance club.
No dance club...bunch of Marty subs would do that!!
Think live concert or jazz club!!
Like I said klipsch cornwall speaker, old style big speaker box.
chrapladm's Avatar chrapladm
10:56 PM Liked: 103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc5150 View Post
I agree lol, just build a PA...tops, subs and a dbx driverack pa+ and his goal is achieved.
Maybe but there are better options.

If I wanted crazy dynamics I would have huge amounts of headroom. So I would use at least a 1000watt amplifier to the Max18 but probably only use 150watts at a time. Not saying headroom is always the answer but for me it is the easiest thing to change and I easily noticed the change.(Could be other factors but this worked for me)

I like the idea of a 1299/12100 or 1599/15100 or better. I know some designs can do it with midbass horn loaded but hope it can be achieved in a sealed/ported configuration.

Maximus to me means huge dynamics plenty of spl for everything and FULLRANGE. Built in crossover to keep it simple with a good size poweramp. BUT thats just me.
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
That can't really be done. There are no 10" high end woofers that are going to do good tuned to 20hz. If they are pro woofers, good luck even getting strong out put around 40hz. Same holds true for most 12" woofers as well.

The designers will back me up when I say that if there's a speaker layout or idea, I've probably already drawn it up. I'd like to do some high end designs, but they really don't move very fast. Plus anyone spending $1000+ on a speaker might not want it to be in kit form with a MDF cabinet. So once things get to that level, completed cabinets/crossovers might be a better option.

As mentioned, my current goal is to get some 3 way designs out there so we have more center channel options. The general layout idea is done, I just haven't decided if they should use the more expensive parts, stuff like the current Fusion Line, or a blend of both. Doing one with expensive parts and another version more like the Fusion Line requires double everything, and double work for designers which likely won't happen. So we have to make decisions. We can't just remove one driver and drop in another without new boxes and crossover changes.
I might be missing something here. What about the Catalyst 12s? I heard that when it's DSP was set to full range, it was incredible bass like a couple of high power subs coming out of them. Of course, they are getting a lot of AMP juice.
tential's Avatar tential
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
You said you wanted "insane midbass". To me that means you want your living room to sound like the local dance club.
It's all I've ever wanted! That said I agree with you completely. It's the internet, people always push for more even if they probably wouldn't get it. I REALLY would want a Maximus-18 but it'd take me awhile to be able to not only afford the speaker, but a space I could really get a full usage out of. Remember, this speaker fills a FULL warehouse.

I doubt people in this thread just have warehouses they're trying to fill with sound.

My dream though is to have a pretty large basement party area so I'd definitely love a Maximus-15 type build as that's probably a LOT more reasonable.

I trust your judgement to understand practicality vs internet insanity.

It'd be nice though if you could post the Maximus-18 design if you don't plan on offering it as a kit though. I bet you only 5 people maximum build it and thus prove your point that tons of people will say they will do it, then never do it.

Edit: Oh and if it was me, I dunno about ya'll but there is no way I'm feeding a speaker like this 150 watts.... Definitely depends on the impedance of course but I'd be looking at a CrownXLS 2500 to pair with it at minimum. If I could get away with only a CrownXLS 1500 though I'd be very happy.
lemans24's Avatar lemans24
11:29 AM Liked: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Lots of assumptions in those last 2 posts my friend. Okay, only 2, but still.

The 15" 3-way would not use dual 8's. It would be over 2 cuft smaller, and cheaper. There's a big difference trying to package and ship a box that's 27" wide x 52" tall versus 21" x 44". That all adds up to being more manageable.

The Maximus-18 was a trial to see what's possible, what's needed for power, volume, tuning, etc.

People that love that 'punch you in the chest' feeling aren't just putting 150 watts into a speaker with a fairly flat response curve. Because by the time you got the midbass up high enough, your ears would be bleeding from the midrange driver and the compression driver. To get that feeling without blowing out your ears, you'd have to boost the lower end a few notches up, which really starts to pull wattage. That's why sub amps need so much more power than your receiver.
Can you give out any specs on the Maximus-15??
Just speculating:
40x17.5x15 tower
Seos 15 waveguide
Fl-450 waveguide
B&c 12" mid woofer
B&c 15" woofer
F3 35hz
1000 watts
jkkwaz's Avatar jkkwaz
10:29 PM Liked: 25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

People that love that 'punch you in the chest' feeling aren't just putting 150 watts into a speaker with a fairly flat response curve. Because by the time you got the midbass up high enough, your ears would be bleeding from the midrange driver and the compression driver. To get that feeling without blowing out your ears, you'd have to boost the lower end a few notches up, which really starts to pull wattage. That's why sub amps need so much more power than your receiver.
This is a great point. My speakers are 99 db/W, so I know they are probably fine running off my x4000, but I start to feel like having some extra watts would be beneficial when EQing. I'd like to EQ a bit because I feel like I could be getting more from my mains in the midbass area (JBL 3677's). When you talk about "boosting the lower end a few notches up", I am assuming you are talking about boosting more that just the sub trims? If I crossover at 80, boosting the sub trims is only going to affect 80 and below. If I want to boost anything higher than 80, in the "midbass" region, I would need to do that with separate, external EQ (iNuke DSP, miniDSP, etc.) correct? Audyssey is not going to allow me to do that. In addition, as I start to boost certain frequencies by even a few dB, my power requirements could DOUBLE or more. Am I thinking about this correctly? If I do add external amplification, I could keep Audyssey engaged, since I like the way it sounds and actually does a pretty good job of integrating my horn sub with my ported sub, and just add a few dB to certain frequencies to integrate a little more pronounced house curve? I remember seeing Carp post some preset house curves in his iNuke DSP that looked pretty awesome (and convenient when switching sources from movies to music, etc.).

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