Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 361 - AVS Forum
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post #10801 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 03:40 PM
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It certainly wouldn't be $1000, I just put that range there to keep it very general, but it would fall closer in the middle.

If you need something more than the 1099, it would certainly cost over $500 for parts because the 1099 uses buyout midwoofers and good but low priced woofers and still added up close to $400. An extra $100 wouldn't get much more with 2 midwoofer upgrades and 2 woofers to upgrade.

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post #10802 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
We could obviously talk about the speaker size if there seemed to be enough interest. It would be a bit bigger than the 1099.

I've already seen the custom woofer samples and they are mean. No problem for the speaker doing full range, or tuned higher for serious midbass, or sealed to roll off around 80hz. Speaker sensitivity would be around 100db. But they could be used sealed in smaller boxes too. My thoughts were ported left and right speakers, sealed center that could still do 80hz.
I'm interested in a high output, amazing sound speaker for about $500 each LCR. Size is not an issue at all for me. Bigger is fine. Something that is a step up from a FUSION 12 with a clearer midrange, less distortion and more output for a couple hundred bucks more. Keep me in mind, even if I am a guinea pig for a design or it's just a custom one off project. Size does not matter at all, but I do care about value. I'll spend $$ but I want a lot for the dollars I spend.
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post #10803 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
It certainly wouldn't be $1000, I just put that range there to keep it very general, but it would fall closer in the middle.

If you need something more than the 1099, it would certainly cost over $500 for parts because the 1099 uses buyout midwoofers and good but low priced woofers and still added up close to $400. An extra $100 wouldn't get much more with 2 midwoofer upgrades and 2 woofers to upgrade.
YUP! I get all that. I'd ideally like to find that good value blend, $600 each is fine but I'd want it to be a great value so perhaps buyout woofers or something nice to make the value really extra special. It's not really the cost as much as the value to me. I just don't see myself spending $1000+ for each speaker even if I could. But I'd be tempted to spend $1000 if the value was super high and the speakers themselves were over the top excellent. In other words I need a good reason to justify the spending

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post #10804 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 04:18 PM
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They wouldn't be $1000.

I doubt the buy out woofer stuff will be done any more because it's a huge amount of resources to put into something that isn't going to be around very long. The only reason the 1099 is still around is because someone had to purchase hundreds of the midwoofers.

I hope others don't feel the same way or I've seriously devalued this entire project with the hard work of the others.

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post #10805 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 04:30 PM
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Well I think value is important to everyone. Like I said it's not about being ultra low price, I said I'd spend money. I'm willing to spend double or triple what a standard kit costs now ($300) so I don't feel like I'm being a cheapskate. As I explained it's about what you get for the money that's important to me. So if the kit is super awesome but premium priced that's ok. But a FUSION 12 kit gets you 95% of the way there for 1/3rd the cost I'd have a tough time with it. It's all relative. I hate to sound like I'm a cheap bastard (even though I am ) and I fully appreciate what you and the designer do. You make great points, ideally you want a design that's going to be available for a while so it's not wasted effort. I agree with that. But I thought you said this supplier might be making a kit or drivers, so I don't see the problem. If it's not a sustainable project I agree with you that it's not worth the effort. I also agree with you that DIY isn't about being low cost or ultra cheap. But I can't really agree if you are trying to say it need to be expensive, or it shouldn't maximize value. I always assumed the poor value combinations were already axed in the initial design phase of kicking ideas around for a kit, or what drivers to use. I don't see a lot of point in making a kit with an expensive driver just because it's expensive for the sake of status symbol; I think there needs to be a real benefit that's obvious and justifies the cost. If that is well understood they'll sell well. Even at $600 each. If there isn't a benefit easily realized to justify a kit that is double the cost of a FUSION12 I don't see a lot of point in even trying the design in the first place. I think we agree with each other. Sometimes my words don't come across properly... sorry about that.

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post #10806 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 04:38 PM
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I would be interested in this type of kit. I am going to be looking for my last set of speakers soon. Something to best the 1099's (which I will be testing soon) and even the JTR 212 would be just what I am looking for.


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post #10807 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
We might have an interesting opportunity for some high end, high output speakers but I'm curious if there's enough demand to move forward.

When the SEOS prototypes were done a couple years ago, I sent out a decent number of emails to people/companies that I thought could design some really nice speakers. Some people replied back letting me know that they were too busy at the time, but would consider it later.


About a month or so ago I was in contact with one of those companies and they agreed to work on a nice design. This would be an extremely high output 3 way speaker. Could be used for left, right, and center channels. They could easily be used full range and handle over 1000 watts each. But they'd be quite efficient, so even low powered amps would be fine. It would use custom 12" monster woofers, B&C midranges, etc.

While talking about the design, there was some discussion about it being a 100% completed speaker which would be pretty expensive. When I added up the parts, it was over $600, but under $1000 for components per speaker (I don't want to give exact amounts right now). I don't know if the completed speaker would happen or not, but if it did, do you think there should possibly be a limited run of kits first so that the DIY guys can get them for much cheaper than a completed speaker price?

We've talked about wanting a higher end, more expensive SEOS speaker. But when it comes down to it, I'm just not sure how much demand there really is and I'm a little hesitant to move forward with it. I don't know how all of this would work out yet, or if a set number of kits could even be made available first, but figured I should mention it here. Obviously I can go into more details later or start a new thread to go through the design ideas.
I find it intriguing. I know when I built my friend Statements, he was excited about it, but was nervous spending so much on something he had no idea how it would sound. I believe the parts etc were around $1300, if I recall correctly. We're talking quite a bit more, but if the performance is there, I'm sure there'll be takers. It's tough to say one way or another, without having to look at a completed design, if many would jump into something like that.

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post #10808 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 04:49 PM
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I talked about besting the 1099 with Ryan and he said it wouldn't really be done for another 100-200. Need to spend double and even then the improvement would be minor. That's why I'm happy to get 1099. For me not worth spending hundreds to get 3-5% better. I'm not a midbass monster so I don't need my mains to be pounding 12-15" drivers. I know some love the crunching.

To beat the 212 would be tough when the CD for that is like 600$. Never heard the 212 but to me the 1099 is neck and neck with the jtr 228. Not sure how the 212 is better then the 228 since I've never heard it.
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post #10809 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 04:56 PM
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Mfusick,

Why would you think the kit being discussed wouldn't be an extremely good deal and maximize value like all the other kits? It would use high end parts, be very efficient, killer midbass, power handling, etc. I never said it wouldn't be a sustainable project.

Nor did I say I was going to use an expensive driver just because it's expensive. If anything, you should know from this thread and all the kits that I don't work that way at all. The Karma Line is a perfect example. The Fusion Line is the next perfect example.
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post #10810 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 05:04 PM
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I think we are on the same page. It's all good.

Can you tell me a little more about this project and what you are thinking ?
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post #10811 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 06:01 PM
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I'm not a midbass monster. I know some love the crunching.
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post #10812 of 10830 Old 07-26-2014, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'd be interested in 3 of something like this for LCR.

I'm still searching for my solution at this time, I love the 1099 but would prefer it just a tad more (like a 1299 or 1599).
I thought of this too, but then you should probably just get the 88 Special and stack it on a 15 or 18" module (or between two of them if you swing that way).
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post #10813 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 05:07 AM
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Will this new "idea/design," be using all BC parts?

I think you said custom 12" but not sure. Just curious is all. Anything 100db sensitivity would be great in my eyes.
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post #10814 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 07:05 AM
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No, it wouldn't use all B&C parts or the price would be even higher.

I'm a bit surprised there wouldn't be more interest in a higher end speaker that could also be used full range. Maybe people have wanted one, but never added up costs to see what they would be. Even a single woofer 3 way model that used a nicer $300 woofer would end up costing over $600.
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post #10815 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by martinq View Post
I thought of this too, but then you should probably just get the 88 Special and stack it on a 15 or 18" module (or between two of them if you swing that way).
Good idea.

Right now I am thinking about trying something myself with active crossovers via miniDSP (4 channels each speaker or 4way xover) and trying something like a dual 15" + dual 6" + CD/SEOS combo but I'd probably do 4 way active so I could cross over the 15" independently or run one up higher or lower if needed. Perhaps I am being over ambitious ?

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post #10816 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
No, it wouldn't use all B&C parts or the price would be even higher.

I'm a bit surprised there wouldn't be more interest in a higher end speaker that could also be used full range. Maybe people have wanted one, but never added up costs to see what they would be. Even a single woofer 3 way model that used a nicer $300 woofer would end up costing over $600.
When this thread first started, it was all high rollers. The waveguide was going to cost over $100 alone. And people were gonna use the DE250 at $150. I was much poorer and didn't have the space back then and didn't dream of using the results of this thread. People wanted high end designs and nothing but. Conversations would sound like "I'd get the Apollo upgrade on my AE drivers just cause this is the ultimate build."

Then kits started to trickle out and there was a lot of AE TD12 builds, and JBL 2226. And various things. As well as a lot of requests for more Alpha line speakers.

You didn't do the wrong thing. It's not like you could finance $750 kits for people to get what they want. Additionally, high end stuff tends to be one off stuff. Like chop shops build. Other SEOS 24 builds. Bass Addicts builds. Etc.

The demographic has shifted. Slowly.
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post #10817 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 08:41 AM
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When this thread first started, it was all high rollers. The waveguide was going to cost over $100 alone. And people were gonna use the DE250 at $150. I was much poorer and didn't have the space back then and didn't dream of using the results of this thread. People wanted high end designs and nothing but. Conversations would sound like "I'd get the Apollo upgrade on my AE drivers just cause this is the ultimate build."
Yep, the fiberglass SEOS-12 was $130 and the DE250 was $120. $250 before the woofer or crossover or front baffle or packaging and shipping. The very first designs were the A&E 12" and 15" woofers and cost $600! And people were pushing for more.

Looking back after 3 years of hard work I can honestly say I messed up the project by trying to get costs for these kits so low. It sounds stupid, but for some reason in audio, the best thing is always the most expensive thing. When you make the best thing cheaper, people no longer look at it as the best thing. It's the most bizarre industry around.

I can't tell you how many emails I've answered trying to explain why prices are so low, why their are no 'coupons', and why things are priced at retail of the parts. And afterwards I wonder 'why did I just waste my time doing that?' Long, long hours, literally a warehouse full of audio gear and flat packs.....all just to keep pricing extremely low.

Of course I've also met and emailed some really great people that truly appreciated this project and understand how it came about. I certainly don't need/want any more 'thanks' because I was only suppose to be one part of it. But after this many years, most don't know and certainly aren't picturing some dude trying to get photos of the next kits after work, or packaging up their kits at night instead of watching movies. Heck, I haven't watched a movie for 3 years, maybe longer. And I'm 100% serious when I say that, not one single movie.



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You didn't do the wrong thing. It's not like you could finance $750 kits for people to get what they want.

The demographic has shifted. Slowly.

Yes, but to be honest, I don't really like how some things have shifted in the past year or so. I'm not the type of person to 'take my toys and run home', but it's certainly time to consider refocusing on the project as a whole.
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post #10818 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM
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I think most people here (the real DIY) are looking for maximum value relative to price; that doesn't necessarily mean "cheap" or low priced. The popularity of these projects is mostly the result of the hard work people like you and Tux (and the others) have done to advance the cause and provide some really awesome designs and results that are easily available to many. The side effect of that is it has attracted a lot of non traditional DIYers due to cost, and increased simplicity to the end user, and a big crowd worried about the bottom line. Bigger crowd is good though, anytime you advance something like this project you are going to pick up all sorts of follower and folks, some cheapskates, some high end, and some in between.

I think sometimes the cost things are voiced first because it's something everyone has in common and worries about. It's not necessarily bad even when it becomes annoying though. You seem like you have things figured out. I like how you do things.

Question on the expensive stuff, do you actually have to stock it? or lay out the funds?

I'd think some speaker and driver MFG might take orders direct and possibly stock or guarantee availability for a certain period of time if you used their driver in a kit. Making a kick ass kit and making the kit available for a low cost is an easy way to pimp and promote driver sales. Can people buy the drivers themselves so you don't need to stock them? Just send them the instructions, the waveguide, CD, crossoverparts. Perhaps the baffle CNC cut. That's it. Is that possible ?

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post #10819 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Yes, but to be honest, I don't really like how some things have shifted in the past year or so. I'm not the type of person to 'take my toys and run home', but it's certainly time to consider refocusing on the project as a whole.
You can't please everyone all the time. Do what makes sense for you.

If a particular design/product isn't exactly what someone wants they have a real simple choice to make. Accept that "it is what it is" and learn to live with it or they can keep looking for perfect.

Don't let perfect become the enemy of possible.
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post #10820 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 09:17 AM
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Erich, first off your efforts are greatly appreciated. Second I think you have the inexpensive/cost conscience segment of the market sewed up and have attracted many to DIY who would probably have never considered it. You sacrificed greatly and at this point I feel you should proceed with some of the offerings you originally envisioned. I would just encourage a safeguard so you don't get hit over the head financially in the pursuit of it...again. Even with what will be considered expensive by diysoundgroup standards it will always represent value compared to retail offerings of the same caliber.
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post #10821 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM
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Mfusik, most driver makers don't see this project as any kind of big market or advertising. And most people were coming here wanting the kit 100% one stop shop. Even down to the screws. You know how many posts there were of "what size screw go in the CD?"? Lots. On top of that Erich gets a bit of a discount on the woofers so he was trying to pass on some savings. And as soon as people start sourcing parts separately, they start to question his prices and ask "can I have the schematic cause I can buy capacitors for a $1 less" or "why do I have to buy the waveguide from you to get the schematic when I can buy it at PE" etc. They have no idea that the designs are intellectual property entrusted to Erich. I'm more open that the others, but I know Bagby, for example, is very protective of his work. Even warning me not to share his tempest XO. Then somebody just wants Erich to hand it over to save a few dollars on inductors?? Erich has been put in between a rock and a hard place. We all have given him unsolicited advice, myself included, but he knows more than anyone what has happened.
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post #10822 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 09:43 AM
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You make great points! I'd say just do whatever makes sense; you'll never please everyone. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to purchase from DIY soundgroup, and I'd just accept however it is as "it is what it is". The alternative is I could go do it all 100% on my own, but realistically we know that less than 1% are going to do that, and the ones that would are not buying "kits" anyways.

I was not questioning anything and how it's done, more just wondering if there was a way not to have to stock expensive drivers in Alpha line kits. The more expensive the parts the more it makes sense not to have to stock them. Erich doesn't seem to care much about stocking some $80 drivers, but make those $500 each drivers and it can get crazy fast. I was only asking about a possible solution, but obviously there's a lot going on that complicates things. Thanks for the intelligent explanation.

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post #10823 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 10:03 AM
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The side effect of that is it has attracted a lot of non traditional DIYers due to cost, and increased simplicity to the end user, and a big crowd worried about the bottom line. Bigger crowd is good though
My issue is that I've tied the hands of some of the designers to shoot for a certain price point that I promised to hit years ago. But then the speakers get put up against others costing 4x more and people say.....the Tempest was 95% of that $1500 speaker....shame it couldn't be better. Well it could be. "Oh, the speaker will cost an extra $100? Too much". This thought process is simply handicapping the entire project, and a lot of that has been my fault.

The 1099 has been the most expensive kit so far and you see what's possible. But even that speaker should have cost more than $400, but it happens to use buy out midranges.

People want the 1099, but want more crushing bass, great mids, great highs. But if it's $250 more....."Too much." To me that shows I've made some big mistakes and need to reverse course. Handicapping the SEOS speakers should have gotten me smacked upside the head by some of the guys from 3 years ago like AudioJosh, Coctostan, etc.

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post #10824 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 10:10 AM
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EricH, I don't think anyone dislikes the low prices. It's the first time people have seen things like this.

The first time I saw this thread and your site, I just didn't get it. I'm a business major, a person offering things at cost makes 0 sense to me in my head. It's a SCAM is what my parents would tell me. Following this thread now I know otherwise, but many of us have been taught "if it's too good to be true then it's not true!" Well this is good enough to be true.

That's like going to a store and they're selling Louis Vuitton bags for the cost it actually costs to make them rather than the $2000+ they cost in the store. Of COURSE you'll have to explain to people what's going on.

Although like I've said multiple times in the thread, if you just put these explanations on the FAQ of your site you'd get a lot less questions and people would understand the idea of the site.
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post #10825 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
No, it wouldn't use all B&C parts or the price would be even higher.

I'm a bit surprised there wouldn't be more interest in a higher end speaker that could also be used full range. Maybe people have wanted one, but never added up costs to see what they would be. Even a single woofer 3 way model that used a nicer $300 woofer would end up costing over $600.
Erich,

I am interested, but I'm already in the TD camp. I was an early adopter and wasn't even sure when I purchased the woofers WTF I would do with them. Thanks to you, bill and mike and a few others I have some awesome sounding speakers. Now if you were doing something with the TD woofer in a 3-way design, I'd be more interested. I'm not too concerned about the dollar amount with the figures your speaking about, I'm more concerned about having a cohesive surround sound system with timber mating etc.

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post #10826 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 10:54 AM
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When I try to explain to others getting speakers with no mark up people don't believe me.( not avs members, just friends) It really is conditioned into us to pay more for quality. Look at nearly anything in retail.

I do understand a bit what you are going through. Although my side venture is much smaller and only six months old it has changed a few times since I started. I wonder if I just do a bit more then will I enjoy it more ? People ask me the craziest questions sometimes. Many are trying to achieve what the big dogs here have. I say do you ever listen louder then reference in your 1500 cuft room ? They say no , but I think some feel a pressure to be able to say they have 120+ dB's or flat to 8hz. There is nothing wrong with incredible systems if you are going to use it.

Talking with Ryan at the gtg really grounded me in what I am chasing. I did the same thing that you are talking about . right away I wondered if I replace the mids with ae drivers and change the 10" to 12" it must be better. Then he helped me remember what I just listened too. It is an incredible speaker already.

Your venture has allowed me to have a 10k speaker system for under 2k. I can't thank you enough for doing that. I recommend your products to people daily in the PMS I get.

You can't let people who post get to you. I know its hard. I run pretty hot myself . You just try to help the best you can. My side venture started as a way to buy speakers from you. It morphed into saving my bacon due to work issues. Now its back where it belongs in future 1099 purchases. From there stuff for my kids. I know you lose money on your venture. Could I do that ? No, but I get why you do it. It does feel great when you set someone up with a product that literally changes there happiness level in life.

In the end do what makes you happy. Take some time and watch a couple of movies. Pm me and I can hook you up with some. Don't put off your happiness completely. As bad as I want a 1099 right now..... It can wait.
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post #10827 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 11:33 AM
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Thumbs up for focusing on design instead of price! I'll take two!

Last edited by Boxozaxu; Yesterday at 11:51 AM.
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post #10828 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 07:36 PM
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I'm interested in a nice 3 way in the 500 - 750/each range, and also interested in some upgraded volts for surrounds and maybe atmos speakers
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post #10829 of 10830 Old Yesterday, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
But then the speakers get put up against others costing 4x more and people say.....the Tempest was 95% of that $1500 speaker....shame it couldn't be better. Well it could be. "Oh, the speaker will cost an extra $100? Too much". This thought process is simply handicapping the entire project, and a lot of that has been my fault.
I guess I could be partially to blame for that even though I never intended it to be like that. Although my speakers are only 3x more then the Tempest, but I've always maintained that for the price I refuse to speak badly about the Tempest because they offer amazing value. I have also said that I very much enjoyed the Tempest and really like them, I just felt they didn't do anything better then the speakers that I compared them too. Well except for saving someone a good amount of cash


I really do hope that you follow through with some of these high end models that you've been teasing us about though
Will all of that said I still think you deserve a freaking metal for all that you've done for the DIY community.
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My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #10830 of 10830 Old Today, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maklar View Post
I'm interested in a nice 3 way in the 500 - 750/each range, and also interested in some upgraded volts for surrounds and maybe atmos speakers
In a year or two, I'd be interested in a nice 3 way in the 500-1000 each range too.
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