Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 362 - AVS Forum
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post #10831 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 09:32 AM
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I'm sort of a lurker-newb here, I've just discovered speaker building in the past six months or so. I've built a pair of Overnight Sensations from Erich's excellent flatpack kit, and a Digger8 sub whose design is posted over at the PE Techtalk board. I'm building a pair of MLTL Speedsters right now, and after that intend to redo my living room DIYSG style, starting with some Volts for surrounds, an undecided sub design, and finally some SEOS fronts. With that said, I've got some thoughts to share:


The one thing I've observed about the AVSforum DIY board, compared to others like Techtalk or DIYAudio, is that AVSforum DIY has a major slant towards home theater. Look at the build threads. Half the builds are for giant home theater subwoofers, and most of the rest are SEOS designs (most but not all from Erich's designs), which are still mostly HT-oriented.


So the people who want to build a home theater have landed here. As I see it, the goal of this group of people isn't audio as a hobby, it's just to build the theater and be done with it. And in a lot of cases, they're building everything all at once, and they've got a budget for it as well. So there's a priority on being thrifty in the build, and less priority on traditional HiFi and audio enthusiast concerns. And that's not to say that there isn't overlap between home theater and HiFi; that's just how I interpret a lot of the threads and discussions here. Furthermore, there aren't many people designing their own speakers here, either, so there are fewer DIY audio hobbyists here.


Techtalk and other forums have a more of a general audio hobbyist and HiFi slant. There are more audio enthusiasts who are designing and/or building HiFi speakers at these boards. There are more stereo speaker builds, and the 5.1 builds you see there are still more "casual" than "dedicated home theater." And I think these audio hobbyists and audio enthusiasts are much more interested in builds with high-end drivers with higher price tags.


So what I'm trying to say is, Erich, it seems like you need to find your audience. I'm sure lots of people would be interested in your new high-end design, it's just that they're all over at the Techtalk board oohing and ahhing over the new CurtC/JimH Statements 2 design, which runs about $1k for the kit at Meniscus, without a baffle or flatpack.


I also think that the popularity of the 1099 design shows that there is some interest in higher-fidelity designs, based in its success and the comments from that Canada get-together. Seems like the 1099 is effectively the flagship Alpha series design, even if it isn't named as such. And the interest in the Maximus thread seems to suggest that you could have larger/more expensive designs than the 1099.
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post #10832 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post

The one thing I've observed about the AVSforum DIY board, compared to others like Techtalk or DIYAudio, is that AVSforum DIY has a major slant towards home theater. Look at the build threads. Half the builds are for giant home theater subwoofers, and most of the rest are SEOS designs (most but not all from Erich's designs), which are still mostly HT-oriented.


So the people who want to build a home theater have landed here. As I see it, the goal of this group of people isn't audio as a hobby, it's just to build the theater and be done with it. And in a lot of cases, they're building everything all at once, and they've got a budget for it as well.
Um.... Yes and NO.

I disagree with the "and be done with it" part strongly. Lots of the real DIYers here come back for more. and more... and MOAR!

I'm not interested in just doing it and moving on, this is a hobby for me very much; a hobby I plan to chase for decades more.

Switching gears a little to what the previous guys said,
I will add that I'm also interested in something like a 1299 or whatever... $500-$750 seems like a hole in the current line up. There is not really anything positioned above the 1099 or FUSION 15 currently (and actually those are not even posted up yet).

The money thing is never going to go away, and not everyone is ever going to agree. There's a wide range of income levels on this forum and thus the opinions are all over the place. I'm relatively poor by almost any standard, my wife is out of work and we just had twins, we are scraping by literally. Proportionally I spend a lot more of my available and limited income on this hobby than most so it probably doesn't seem like I'm quite as poor as I really am. I suspect there is a lot of other guys in my shoes trying to pay for kids, wifes, vacations, houses, braces, kids sports or college.. etc... Money is always going to be important to everyone- just not everyone will always agree on the actual dollar amounts.

Designing kits should be about the kit, and the value and performance of it. Not the cost of it. People will spend more money on something that's better. It's not what the kit costs, it's what it offers. For me I am attracted to DIY because of the value inherent in capitalizing on your own sweat equity, I find it fun to build boxes and use tools too. But the most important thing is that I am rewarded for my hard work with great results and performance. I also like the customization aspect of DIY and being able to design or build exactly what you want. I think the value of these kits and the simplicity in how they are presented, offered, designed, laid out has attracted a lot of non traditionalist DIYer's based on price. I'm still surprised how popular the flat packs are actually, seems like shipping would be a killer on those but they sell rather well.
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post #10833 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 09:52 AM
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As someone who has posted on again and off again over on TechTalk, but has always lurked, they are usually very budget oriented. I see people spend a lot more money over here. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but they're also usually not interested in waveguides and compression drivers, and certainly not high effeciency. Commonly they build 2 way dome plus mid woofer speakers that are 85db/w/m effecient. There has been a bit more diversity in the past couple years though.
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post #10834 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 09:56 AM
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Well this is an audio video science forum dedicated primarily to home theater and a site that has an equal representation on the video side of things as the audio side of things. It makes sense our builds are very home theater centric. But I'd argue that the guy building 7 channels of SEOS and 4 subwoofers with 18"s drivers is as serious as any guy building a nice set of speakers for music. In a lot of cases the cost of these theaters they are going into is in the tens of thousands of dollars or more range too. I lurk too and I agree with you Tux.

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post #10835 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 10:08 AM
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When I built my 1099s I was more interested in music reproduction than HT. I found after building my very small theater that I was listening to music more than movies. The Energy speakers I had sucked at music. My Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands in another room put them to shame. The problem with the VAs is they can't play super loud cleanly. I wanted more.

Now $3,000 for a pair of speakers is FAR more than anyone I know would pay. Considering they are also 4 ohm the cost on gear is much higher than most are willing to pay. Granted I still love the VAs dearly, but my 1099s are just something to behold.

Could Erich offer a higher end speaker? Sure he could. But in the real world I would have to spend far more to get much better sound, and I am talking 3% better at most.

Commercial speakers just don't come close to the 1099s. No one designs a speaker for 80hz and up that is as large as these. They wouldn't sell. People wouldn't understand that a subwoofer of high quality also needs to be in the equation.

I have heard so many brands of speakers it isn't funny. I looked for 10 years to find a speaker that I loved. The Mozart Grands were that speaker. The 1099s destroy them 80hz and up.

I write this as I play the Rolling Stones at 100db and they have never sounded so good. Very few speakers could do this as accurately as the 1099s at this volume. Certainly they would cost multiples more.

Designing a speaker from the ground up is far more difficult than many understand. Tux had built a few designs before the 1099 and I am sure he would say nothing comes close to them. Cost of parts doesn't equal better. It is finding components that work fantastically with each other to make a complete sound.

I am very fortunate. I have a great job and do well. I could buy $10,000 speakers and sleep well at night. But honestly those type of offerings I couldn't justify. They struggle compared to highly efficient speakers like the 1099s. I went diy because the commercial market had nothing to offer.

At this point I can't imagine a higher priced SEOS design beating the 1099s by much. They're that good (thanks fatshaft for bringing these to my attention!). Ryan (tux) really hit it out of the park. If he comes up with something better by his own accord, I'll buy them day one. He is extremely talented and I only hope he can best the 1099.

Bottom line, don't jump to conclusions about any of the DIYsoundgroup purchaser's. We aren't new to audio and movies isn't our only interest. High end SQ is what most of us cherish!
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post #10836 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 10:11 AM
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mbyrnes,

I guess I need to drive over to Media to hear your 1099s
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post #10837 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 10:14 AM
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mbyrnes,

I guess I need to drive over to Media to hear your 1099s
More than welcome. I'm on my phone, where are you located?
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post #10838 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
I'm sort of a lurker-newb here, I've just discovered speaker building in the past six months or so. I've built a pair of Overnight Sensations from Erich's excellent flatpack kit, and a Digger8 sub whose design is posted over at the PE Techtalk board. I'm building a pair of MLTL Speedsters right now, and after that intend to redo my living room DIYSG style, starting with some Volts for surrounds, an undecided sub design, and finally some SEOS fronts. With that said, I've got some thoughts to share:


The one thing I've observed about the AVSforum DIY board, compared to others like Techtalk or DIYAudio, is that AVSforum DIY has a major slant towards home theater. Look at the build threads. Half the builds are for giant home theater subwoofers, and most of the rest are SEOS designs (most but not all from Erich's designs), which are still mostly HT-oriented.


So the people who want to build a home theater have landed here. As I see it, the goal of this group of people isn't audio as a hobby, it's just to build the theater and be done with it. And in a lot of cases, they're building everything all at once, and they've got a budget for it as well. So there's a priority on being thrifty in the build, and less priority on traditional HiFi and audio enthusiast concerns. And that's not to say that there isn't overlap between home theater and HiFi; that's just how I interpret a lot of the threads and discussions here. Furthermore, there aren't many people designing their own speakers here, either, so there are fewer DIY audio hobbyists here.


Techtalk and other forums have a more of a general audio hobbyist and HiFi slant. There are more audio enthusiasts who are designing and/or building HiFi speakers at these boards. There are more stereo speaker builds, and the 5.1 builds you see there are still more "casual" than "dedicated home theater." And I think these audio hobbyists and audio enthusiasts are much more interested in builds with high-end drivers with higher price tags.


So what I'm trying to say is, Erich, it seems like you need to find your audience. I'm sure lots of people would be interested in your new high-end design, it's just that they're all over at the Techtalk board oohing and ahhing over the new CurtC/JimH Statements 2 design, which runs about $1k for the kit at Meniscus, without a baffle or flatpack.


I also think that the popularity of the 1099 design shows that there is some interest in higher-fidelity designs, based in its success and the comments from that Canada get-together. Seems like the 1099 is effectively the flagship Alpha series design, even if it isn't named as such. And the interest in the Maximus thread seems to suggest that you could have larger/more expensive designs than the 1099.
You're right there are a lot of people interested here in home theater, but a ton of us are also into music. The SEOS speakers are awesome because they excel at home theater and are amazing for music. They have the huge dynamic capability and clarity for movies, but are also very revealing, have an amazing soundstage, and have amazing separation for music. I think you'll find a lot more people here are more technical than the average "home theater enthusiast" / "audiophile" as most avsforum members on these forums have standard copper wire, high power pro amps, have basic black boxes for speakers, have multiple large subs, and dedicated rooms for audio. Most of us understand there is no magic that happens in electronics and speakers, and realize that "hi-fi" and great audio quality can come at the cost of a single "audiophile" speaker wire.

There are many who drop in, build their speakers, and leave, sure, but tons of us are "audio hobbyists" here too.
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post #10839 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 11:36 AM
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I can understand someone wanting to dabble in speaker building as a hobby. Creating better versions each time. I think it would be very unlikely for most on forums to create a speaker of Ryan or Jeff, Matts quality.
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post #10840 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 11:45 AM
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1099 are in stock !!!!
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post #10841 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 11:50 AM
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Mfusick, Bassment, mbyrnes, tux, I agree with you guys completely as well. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of die-hard enthusiasts around here. Maybe part of my point is just that the SEOS designs and DIYSG need a wider audience than just AVS. I'm sure it's easier for Erich to handle minimum orders for waveguides and flatpacks and things when he's selling more kits.
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post #10842 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 11:54 AM
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Mfusick, Bassment, mbyrnes, tux, I agree with you guys completely as well. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of die-hard enthusiasts around here. Maybe part of my point is just that the SEOS designs and DIYSG need a wider audience than just AVS. I'm sure it's easier for Erich to handle minimum orders for waveguides and flatpacks and things when he's selling more kits.
You make some good points but isn't avs bigger then all the rest combined ?
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post #10843 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 12:03 PM
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Mfusick, Bassment, mbyrnes, tux, I agree with you guys completely as well. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of die-hard enthusiasts around here. Maybe part of my point is just that the SEOS designs and DIYSG need a wider audience than just AVS. I'm sure it's easier for Erich to handle minimum orders for waveguides and flatpacks and things when he's selling more kits.
Unfortunately Erich is insane and makes no profit on the kits. Ryan gets no cut for the design. I would gladly pay much more, but I'll have to settle and do as erich wishes, donate to a charity with my savings! (Breast cancer, mom just got diagnosed). We need more great people in this world like them.

If this was a kit for a company making it a business, I would guess the kits would have been $700+.

Can't thank Erich, Ryan, and the others involved in the SEOS project enough. I stole these speakers flat out.
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post #10844 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 12:22 PM
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Unfortunately Erich is insane and makes no profit on the kits. Ryan gets no cut for the design. I would gladly pay much more, but I'll have to settle and do as erich wishes, donate to a charity with my savings! (Breast cancer, mom just got diagnosed). We need more great people in this world like them.

If this was a kit for a company making it a business, I would guess the kits would have been $700+.

Can't thank Erich, Ryan, and the others involved in the SEOS project enough. I stole these speakers flat out.
Could not have said it better thanks to Erich and all the designers


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post #10845 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 12:26 PM
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The Who never sounded so good, seriously. I need to meet Ryan and Erich. I will have so much pleasure listening to these for so many years. Still not banging them like fatshaft, lol.
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post #10846 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 12:32 PM
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The Who never sounded so good, seriously. I need to meet Ryan and Erich. I will have so much pleasure listening to these for so many years. Still not banging them like fatshaft, lol.
Has anyone other then designers met Erich ? He's the loch ness monster... He needs to post a pic of himself
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post #10847 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 12:35 PM
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You make some good points but isn't avs bigger then all the rest combined ?
I bet most AVS members don't read all the subforums. I hardly read any of the other ones.
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post #10848 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 12:55 PM
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I bet most AVS members don't read all the subforums. I hardly read any of the other ones.
I frequent many of the other threads, but only when I am researching to upgrade, lol. Upgraditis is a tough to conquer so I avoid it at all costs. Very contagious!
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post #10849 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 01:03 PM
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I find most of the commercial threads boring. Someone posts what's the best for 500$. Then hsu guy says his, PSA guy says his, svs guy says his. Then they argue and op is left in the dust.

I find I learn a lot more here.
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post #10850 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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post #10851 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 01:36 PM
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I find most of the commercial threads boring. Someone posts what's the best for 500$. Then hsu guy says his, PSA guy says his, svs guy says his. Then they argue and op is left in the dust.

I find I learn a lot more here.
ya, a lot of the commercial forum discussions are really pointless here. It's all just subjective debating over speaker brands / electronics / and UHD vs HD /plasma vs lcd

lots more science and measurements on this part of the forum


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post #10852 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 01:51 PM
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I frequent many of the other threads, but only when I am researching to upgrade, lol. Upgraditis is a tough to conquer so I avoid it at all costs. Very contagious!
Amen!


I am thinking of upgrading my projectors and am seriously trying to stay out of the $20,000+ forum and that new NEC upgraded high brightness laser projector. I really don't need to spend over $30,000 on a projector!


If only we could DIY projectors...if only.


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post #10853 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 01:59 PM
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Amen!


I am thinking of upgrading my projectors and am seriously trying to stay out of the $20,000+ forum and that new NEC upgraded high brightness laser projector. I really don't need to spend over $30,000 on a projector!


If only we could DIY projectors...if only.


Moto
I hear you. Have to appreciate what you have. I bought a house 5 months ago so that eats all of my money. In the long run it is an investment so I can't complain (do all the work myself).

My W1070 is great. I would love deeper blacks like my VT60, but I can't justify spending thousands on a projector when I have a whole house I can make better.

Patience in the A/V world pays off. The trickle down effect makes high end tech affordable a few years later. $750 for a 1080p, 3D projector is crazy cheap, and unimaginable 3 years ago.

Enjoy what you have. No matter how much you spend, the next best thing is only months away. You'll go poor or crazy trying to stay on top!
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post #10854 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 02:04 PM
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As I like to tell my buddies at the Motocross track "I only have about 10 good years left" . So I can't wait too long.
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post #10855 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 02:18 PM
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As I like to tell my buddies at the Motocross track "I only have about 10 good years left" . So I can't wait too long.
Lol. How old are you? I just sold my bike. I'm 36. My bones just hurt too much
Probably the most physically brutal sport there is. I'm one town over from Southwick MX338 (national track) and even in the 30+ class it's just freakin brutal. There is a reason why pro motocross riders usually retire in their 20's.

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post #10856 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 02:22 PM
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Has anyone other then designers met Erich ? He's the loch ness monster... He needs to post a pic of himself
I'd buy him a beer anytime!


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I find most of the commercial threads boring. Someone posts what's the best for 500$. Then hsu guy says his, PSA guy says his, svs guy says his. Then they argue and op is left in the dust.

I find I learn a lot more here.

This is very true and I agree 100%. The DIY crowd seems to have a mutul respect for the other designs and gear, even the stuff you don't own or didn't design. I like that. Honest answers. The commercial stuff each owner needs to somehow reinforce his own purchase decision and obviously everything that said is biased to that angle. There is a few exceptions where some of the real guys have attended a few GTG's and literally heard all the speakers and subs so if you find one of those guys listen to them because they often have great advice, but they are 1 out of 50. And those guys tend to hang our here too

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #10857 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 02:25 PM
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I'm 57. Just got back from Millville amateur day. Raced the 45+, 50+ and 55+ classes.


Man I wanted to hit the Southwick National one day, maybe they will put it back on the schedule at some point. I assume that was your home track. I respect you guys that can go fast in that deep sand.


I am going to say that at some point you will be back to riding motocross...once it's in your blood...
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post #10858 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post
The Who never sounded so good, seriously. I need to meet Ryan and Erich. I will have so much pleasure listening to these for so many years. Still not banging them like fatshaft, lol.
Give it some more time


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post #10859 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
Give it some more time
Your love of the 1099s makes me laugh. Their awesome, but you state it in a way that I understand, but wouldn't go as far. You're probably hilarious in person!

Hope more buy them because I really believe strongly in them. They are fantastic
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post #10860 of 11190 Old 07-28-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post
Your love of the 1099s makes me laugh. Their awesome, but you state it in a way that I understand, but wouldn't go as far. You're probably hilarious in person!
I'd like to think I am...

Quote:
Hope more buy them because I really believe strongly in them. They are fantastic
I completely agree


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