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post #11071 of 11099 Unread 08-26-2014, 05:26 PM
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My SEOS 15's from awhile ago have been aching for a new speaker to go into.

In honest opinions, would I be better keeping my TD12X custom towers, or would the new Fusion 15 provide better performance? I don't need full range, as I have two 18" subs. I could also use a little less height right now than the 40" of the towers, as I just installed a projector and the tower speaker height is keeping me from reaching "optimal" screen size.
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post #11072 of 11099 Unread 08-27-2014, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post
My SEOS 15's from awhile ago have been aching for a new speaker to go into.
...
I could also use a little less height right now than the 40" of the towers, as I just installed a projector and the tower speaker height is keeping me from reaching "optimal" screen size.
You can also build the cinema 88 with two 8" side by side below the SEOS-15 if you want to redcue the height.
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post #11073 of 11099 Unread 08-30-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post
My SEOS 15's from awhile ago have been aching for a new speaker to go into.

In honest opinions, would I be better keeping my TD12X custom towers,
I think you would - assuming you've gotten the crossover really, really well dialed in. If you're using a half-assed crossover then you're not squeezing the full potential out of your systme.
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post #11074 of 11099 Unread 08-30-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post
I think you would - assuming you've gotten the crossover really, really well dialed in. If you're using a half-assed crossover then you're not squeezing the full potential out of your systme.
That would be Bill Waslo's crossover IIRC, so I would assume that part is covered. Although I have heard it said that Bill's methodology is to concentrate on the technical aspects of flat FR, directivity matching and good solid phase behavior while leaving it for the end user to "voice" with EQ if desired, in contrast to some designers who build and tweak for a specific sound. So depending on your definition of "dialed in" I suppose there might be some room for adjustment and personal preference.

bhazard, my take on it is that going to the 15 would gain you controlled directivity down a bit lower (measured, not necessarily audible) with the tradeoff being you lose the AE drivers' world-class distortion numbers (again measured, not necessarily audible, especially at sane volumes). I say you keep the towers and build the 15s and host a listening party.
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post #11075 of 11099 Unread 08-30-2014, 10:19 PM
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I find it near impossible to voice a clean lifelike voice with eq. To me that's one of the main things that I want the xo to accomplish . I find it easier to eq the lows and highs then midrange .
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post #11076 of 11099 Unread 08-30-2014, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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nice work matt. I'm a little surprised that you didn't put more 'down angle' in the response. any comment on that?


the off axis performance of that woofer is quite interesting too. strange off-axis performance makes it look like a horn loaded system down to around 500hz!


the crossover matching is REALLY good--about as good as i have ever seen. i couldn't tell you where the crossover is just looking at the off axis response. it could just as easily be 700hz as 1400hz. very smooth transition.


most of the chop in the upper end could be eq'd out. have you guys thought about an upgrade crossover that includes 2 or 3 minor eq adjustments?


the response buildup around 100-150hz suggest a cab that might be a little small. did you guys take a look at 3 c.f. sealed? winisd has that driver at -3db, q=0.7, 80hz which would be ideal for thx mains, at least in some sense.


sounds like this one is a real winner.

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post #11077 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 08:43 AM
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LTD02, I've wondered about giving recommended PEQs but I've found that stuff like that just confuses the average person. Certainly that's a great way to go with XO design. It assumes the end user has adjustable PEQ, which many don't.
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post #11078 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering if it could be done passively as part of a 'premium crossover'. I don't know enough about passive network design to know if it would be possible to notch down the 1k, 2k, and 4k, bumps. if possible, it would only be a marginal benefit at significant additional cost, but it seems like this design is so good that such an upgrade may actually be warranted for those not just seeking best bang for the buck, but for those seeking more of the best period.

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post #11079 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 09:18 AM
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Oh I see. Ya that's a tricky one with passive parts. I'd say the end user is better going active.
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post #11080 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 10:12 AM
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A while back I did an "EconoSEOS" crossover design for people going it alone, on different woofer/tweeter pairs, but without measurement ability. Erich decided not to do it as a DIYSG project/kit because the parts cost ends up a little too high for most "Econo" builders.

But here it is for anyone interested. There is an L-Pad for level matching and for adjusting to taste, and a polarity switch. High slope crossovers so that phase matching isn't too important.




---
I don't do much "voicing" on crossovers for other people, since that could end up as optimizing it for the designer's room and tastes, and I have 60 year old ears and somewhat peculiar tastes! Nothing really wrong to do voicing, but not really in the spirit of "EconoWave", either. Erich and I did do some voicing on the crossover for Maximus (even changing a woofer because the B&C sounded too murky!), and on crossovers for the new maybe-too-expensive-to-be-supplied dual concentrics. I did some voicing on my Synergies, but now they sound too bright since the room has been almost emptied to better "show" the house (We're moving to Portland in about a month).

Bill
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DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
XSim -free crossover designer and simulator http://libinst.com/Xsim/XSimSetup.exe
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post #11081 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 10:40 AM
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Thanks John,

There is some downward angle to the response but only about 1-2dB, I went back and forth (a lot) and felt this sounded the best, with more downward angle you lost HF detail and it tended to sound just little muffled.

The only thing that I feel is worth being pulled down if someone wanted is that slight peak at 4k, I did not feel it to be obtrusive at all so I left it. The rest of that range is almost +-1dB! You don't really hear small blips like that. I had addressed that 4 k peak in the TD15 SEOS12 crossover but it requires another three parts to the crossover and adjustments to all the other values so it's not a drop in thing here, best would be a bit of PEQ. The very slight peak at 1k gives vocals at bit more detail, I was able to adjust that flat tweaking the crossover slopes and liked the sound more with the slight bump there. Also the power response is flatter with the bump there.

The 150hz bump you see is a combination of a few things. The cabinet is slightly undersized for being ported with this woofer (2.9 cuft 42hz tune) but Erich has to ship these things. That accounts for about 1dB of that bump, most of it is from the the inductor/impedance interaction. That bump is not huge and is low enough to add some kick the midbass without muddying up the lower midrange.


Edit PCD sim for those interested (FR, individual driver FR, Power response and inverted polarity):
Attached Images
File Type: png Fusion-15 PCD.png (34.1 KB, 40 views)

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post #11082 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 10:44 AM
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Can't wait to hear these at a gtg.
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post #11083 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 10:52 AM
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Hey Bill. Voicing really is a peculiar word for speaker design isn't it. Really, personal voicing is wrong. It should be 'making it sound accurate'. Voicing implies coloring the sound.
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post #11084 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 02:14 PM
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But, "sounding accurate" is a subjective thing, isn't it?
"Measuring accurate" is maybe objective (but still requires subjective choices between what characteristics are assumed to make it accurate).

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
XSim -free crossover designer and simulator http://libinst.com/Xsim/XSimSetup.exe
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post #11085 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 02:49 PM
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Correct. Making a speaker sound accurate can be wrong. But I'd argue that if the designer is listening for balanced response and sounds that are reproduced with lifelike accuracy, then they are doing it right. This should always be done congruently with measurements. And you're also right that both require the (somewhat subjective) interpretation of what measurements matter for accuracy.

Voicing, just means anything.
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post #11086 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 03:21 PM
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To me your describing what I would call sonic signature. I find major commercial brands have that as well. B&W , Polk , etc. I found jtrs super smooth and Jeff bagbys very neutral. Mtg90 minions are a bit more dynamic and your 1099 really dynamic and clean.
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post #11087 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I find it near impossible to voice a clean lifelike voice with eq. To me that's one of the main things that I want the xo to accomplish . I find it easier to eq the lows and highs then midrange .
I find this to be an interesting comment because of active XOs.
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post #11088 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
I don't know enough about passive network design to know if it would be possible to notch down the 1k, 2k, and 4k, bumps. if possible, it would only be a marginal benefit at significant additional cost, but it seems like this design is so good that such an upgrade may actually be warranted.
It's possible but the cost/complexity isn't really warranted for the Fusion Line.
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post #11089 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I find it near impossible to voice a clean lifelike voice with eq. To me that's one of the main things that I want the xo to accomplish . I find it easier to eq the lows and highs then midrange .
I find this to be an interesting comment because of active XOs.
What Donny has experienced is that eq can't correct for directivity matching, woofer break up, vertical lobing, etc. All things the XO takes care of in the midrange. This only applies to speakers with a XO smack in the mids, which is extremely common.

So active XO'ers certainly can look after this just fine, but applying PEQ to a poor XO won't fix the issues that really matter.
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post #11090 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 08:31 PM
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Yeah that's my answer. Just with a lot more detail and knowledge
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post #11091 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 08:38 PM
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Gotcha! thanks for the clarity
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post #11092 of 11099 Unread 08-31-2014, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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"I had addressed that 4 k peak in the TD15 SEOS12 crossover but it requires another three parts to the crossover and adjustments to all the other values so it's not a drop in thing here..."


ah! so it wouldn't just be a simple addition, but because of the interactive nature of all the parts, it would be pretty much a whole different crossover. pcd is really tricky!

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post #11093 of 11099 Unread Yesterday, 04:33 AM
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I just wanted to let you guys know that John is assisting me in building a pair of Seos-15+DNA-360+JBL-2226 tower speakers that will be used in my new dedicated theater room. I have all the wood cut, and will be starting a thread soon so that folks can follow my progress!

These will be active with each speaker getting its own iNuke1000dsp. I have a Seos-18 waveguide that will be used for a future center channel build. I have not decided which compression driver and mid's/woofers will be used for with the Seos-18. I will be taking measurements and will rely on being able to message them back & forth to John so that he can help me with setting up the active filters.
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post #11094 of 11099 Unread Yesterday, 04:38 AM
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Also, I would like to say publicly how greatful I am to have John (LTD02) helping me with this. He is truly an asset to our small community, without whom, there would be such a void! So here is to you John! (raises glass for a toast!)

Oh and I would also like to thank Tux and Erich for being kind and helpful in my journey down this path!
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post #11095 of 11099 Unread Yesterday, 05:06 AM
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Passive with Inuke power?

Curious as I will be starting my Maximus 15 build soon.
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post #11096 of 11099 Unread Yesterday, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Passive with Inuke power?

Curious as I will be starting my Maximus 15 build soon.
Would a mini DSP and better/cleaner/different class amplifiers make more sense ?

You can buy high end pre-HDMI AVR on ebay and Craigslist and local pawn shops for pennies on dollar that offer 5/7 channels of clean amp power with pre ins. The power rating isn't a concern, because in a three way crossover you are getting three channels per speaker so effectively your using three AVR to power your speakers. With a high efficiency design you'll hit reference and leave the room in pain screaming before you hit the wattage/volume limits.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #11097 of 11099 Unread Yesterday, 07:10 AM
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Marty's setup I would want to use a full passive Xo. Then use the Inuke 1000DSP for power and extra EQ. For me I will be building a 3 way setup and it will be used outdoors. I would prefer to have a passive setup because I dont feel like having 6 channels of amplifiers. For some that is easy but for me I cant afford that. I have a fully functional 8 channel DSP with preouts/mixer I will use to help get the mid/high. I only have one amp for now though. So I will try and dial in 2 sections at a time. Then go from there.

I am always jealous of everyone and endless pockets on these forums. My projects tend to take a LONG time to complete. BUT for once I only need to order the DNA 360 pair and I am ready for building. CANT wait.
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post #11098 of 11099 Unread Today, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
A while back I did an "EconoSEOS" crossover design for people going it alone, on different woofer/tweeter pairs, but without measurement ability. Erich decided not to do it as a DIYSG project/kit because the parts cost ends up a little too high for most "Econo" builders.

But here it is for anyone interested. There is an L-Pad for level matching and for adjusting to taste, and a polarity switch. High slope crossovers so that phase matching isn't too important.




---
I don't do much "voicing" on crossovers for other people, since that could end up as optimizing it for the designer's room and tastes, and I have 60 year old ears and somewhat peculiar tastes! Nothing really wrong to do voicing, but not really in the spirit of "EconoWave", either. Erich and I did do some voicing on the crossover for Maximus (even changing a woofer because the B&C sounded too murky!), and on crossovers for the new maybe-too-expensive-to-be-supplied dual concentrics. I did some voicing on my Synergies, but now they sound too bright since the room has been almost emptied to better "show" the house (We're moving to Portland in about a month).

Bill
Bill do you have a picture of a finished crossover? Or do you have a pic of the DPDT switch? I am drawing a blank in my head how it is used in this setup. I will google either way.

I think I will be buying some parts soon to just build this XO and go from there.

Last edited by chrapladm; Today at 05:35 AM.
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post #11099 of 11099 Unread Today, 06:15 AM
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DPDT switch is reversing CD polarity
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