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post #11371 of 11387 Unread 10-15-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
A sensible goal, yes. But have you considered that there will be influence on the vertical polars at the XO caused by the drivers playing together. Perhaps even if the SEOS18 is omni below 1400hz if the XO is at say 1100hz the lobing caused by the midhorn and HF horn you'll actually have a smooth vertical polar response. Otherwise you're really not benefiting from the SEOS18's width.
Thanks Tux:
I pondered long about how to conceptualize the vertical response of the stacked horns and the image of transitioning from the pattern of the larger to the pattern of the smaller is the framework for understanding it. Its what happens in the transition region that I don't claim to understand. But I did notice I'd have vertical lobes just outside the 60 degree pattern of the SEOS18. I wasn't thinking on those particular lines when I posted this AM. Thanks for your observation. It helps. I will end up experimenting with XO through that 1K to 1.4K range and seeing what happens to the vertical polars. Hopefully it won't be terribly difficult to measure them within my personal constraints.

I should also mention this is going to be a corner horn so the width of the SEOS isn't as big deal as it would be away from the corners. As I said earlier, one could as well use the SEOS15. The benefit of the 18 is the potentially better vertical polars as well as the aesthetics.

And the other interesting thing in the same vein, is the XO to the woofers at 150. I'm looking at woofers spaced equally above and below the midhorn. That is right near where the ceiling bounce occurs in my 8' high room. So the MTM like geometry should give me a lobe free beam around XO and an octave below and thus eliminate ceiling bounce nulls. I'm modelling this with XDIR, which I believe models point sources, and am not certain that this will be the case. Does that match your understanding?

Jack
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post #11372 of 11387 Unread 10-15-2014, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post

And the other interesting thing in the same vein, is the XO to the woofers at 150. I'm looking at woofers spaced equally above and below the midhorn. That is right near where the ceiling bounce occurs in my 8' high room. So the MTM like geometry should give me a lobe free beam around XO and an octave below and thus eliminate ceiling bounce nulls. I'm modelling this with XDIR, which I believe models point sources, and am not certain that this will be the case. Does that match your understanding?

Jack
Exactly my understanding and a great design implementation if you ask me.
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post #11373 of 11387 Unread 10-15-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Exactly my understanding and a great design implementation if you ask me.
You made my day!!! now I'd better start paying attention to my meeting
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post #11374 of 11387 Unread 10-15-2014, 04:12 PM
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Ok just so I fully understand this how much is a plastic SEOS 15?

I only see the fiberglass one and cant afford that and TD8's.
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post #11375 of 11387 Unread 10-15-2014, 09:31 PM
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Seos 12 Maximus!

This one got me smiling! This would be awesome, finally a Seos with some real bass! Throw in a TD12S-4, and I'm in

I'm also a big BFM-fan, and was thinking this one could also be done with a simple mid-horn like the BFM Omni 12/15.

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post #11376 of 11387 Unread 10-16-2014, 03:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post
Thanks Tux:
I pondered long about how to conceptualize the vertical response of the stacked horns and the image of transitioning from the pattern of the larger to the pattern of the smaller is the framework for understanding it. Its what happens in the transition region that I don't claim to understand. But I did notice I'd have vertical lobes just outside the 60 degree pattern of the SEOS18. I wasn't thinking on those particular lines when I posted this AM. Thanks for your observation. It helps. I will end up experimenting with XO through that 1K to 1.4K range and seeing what happens to the vertical polars. Hopefully it won't be terribly difficult to measure them within my personal constraints.

I should also mention this is going to be a corner horn so the width of the SEOS isn't as big deal as it would be away from the corners. As I said earlier, one could as well use the SEOS15. The benefit of the 18 is the potentially better vertical polars as well as the aesthetics.

And the other interesting thing in the same vein, is the XO to the woofers at 150. I'm looking at woofers spaced equally above and below the midhorn. That is right near where the ceiling bounce occurs in my 8' high room. So the MTM like geometry should give me a lobe free beam around XO and an octave below and thus eliminate ceiling bounce nulls. I'm modelling this with XDIR, which I believe models point sources, and am not certain that this will be the case. Does that match your understanding?

Jack
Jack, perhaps I missed it, but, are you DIY'ing the mid- horn yourself? You said that it will be conical, does that mean round? If so, how would this design, specifically for a dedicated mid- horn, compare to Wayne's mid-horn with the JBL-2023 or the Eminence? I really like the idea of using a point source dedicated mid-horn in a 3- way design!
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post #11377 of 11387 Unread 10-16-2014, 06:26 AM
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Sorry to sidetrack the midhorn discussion but...

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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Ok just so I fully understand this how much is a plastic SEOS 15?

I only see the fiberglass one and cant afford that and TD8's.
Did I miss your crossover plans active or passive? If I knew that I could get the same person who did my seos12/td12m XO to do this one, I'd order the drivers today!
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post #11378 of 11387 Unread 10-16-2014, 07:15 AM
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I will be going passive. And if I could get an 8" version designed by MTG90 I would have already ordered. lol

Last edited by chrapladm; 10-16-2014 at 07:37 AM.
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post #11379 of 11387 Unread 10-16-2014, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
Jack, perhaps I missed it, but, are you DIY'ing the mid- horn yourself? You said that it will be conical, does that mean round? If so, how would this design, specifically for a dedicated mid- horn, compare to Wayne's mid-horn with the JBL-2023 or the Eminence? I really like the idea of using a point source dedicated mid-horn in a 3- way design!
Hi Marty:
Conical does indeed mean round, except when you are talking about horns. All conical means in the horn context is that the walls are straight sided, as opposed to having e.g. an exponential curve. Look back at the picture I posted and you'll see the straight walls. Its 90 degrees horizontal by 45 vertical. Its built by taking two rectangular pieces of plywood, joining them at 90 degrees and hanging one 8FE200 on the outside of each piece. You then cut two triangle pieces with the right bevel angle and place them into the "V" with the points meeting in the middle vertically in back and the wide ends meeting the side walls I plan to build it myself and I designed it to be easy to build but I'm hoping someone can be induced to make a flat pack. Since this design can't be converted to a Synergy, there wouldn't be any patent issues with doing a flat pack.

I have to give credit to WayneP. I started with his midhorn but converted it from front loaded to offset driver. This allows me to use two 8" drivers instead of a single 10" driver. I think it will have better SQ and higher output than an Eminence based design both because of two drivers instead of one and because the Faital on paper seems to be cleaner and because there is a bandpass filtering effect from the offset driver mounting that filters out distortion products.

This isn't a point source design because the CD isn't in the same horn as the mids but it will give you a lower center to center distance than the typical 2 way SEOS design with a 12" or 15" midwoofer. It needs a SEOS18 or SEOS15 directly above or below it. I know you've got one waiting for a design. This could be it but so far its just on paper.

Jack
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post #11380 of 11387 Unread 10-16-2014, 04:42 PM
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I have a set of Clearwave Dynamic Loudspeakers. I know that timber matching is when the surrounds utilize the same tweeters if not all of the same drivers. It's OK if my surround speakers are not timber matched. As long as my mains are its all good.

I like the idea of the volts because they seem to have a wide dispersion of sound and not pointed for lack of a better word. I hear great things about them but the majority of users seem to be using them with other speakers from the DIY Soundgroup.

I don't have the best shaped room not the ideal placement, I was wondering if the volts would be a good fit for my clearwaves.

TIA
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post #11381 of 11387 Unread 10-17-2014, 05:30 AM
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This is probably posted somewhere in this now massive thread, but right now I only see the Fusion line available. I think I read a few pages back of some higher end lines coming. Will these only be the larger (~40" high) towers, any plans to change the cabinet a bit (e.g., say angled to the back vs the usual square box, I assume offering a curved kit would be too difficult to do)?


Are the Minion's coming back at all as at some point I thought I recalled a Minion Center was in the works?


Thx

 

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post #11382 of 11387 Unread 10-17-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post
This is probably posted somewhere in this now massive thread, but right now I only see the Fusion line available.
On that note, what happened to the Alpha-12 Zephyr? I wanted to suggest a pair to my buddy, but they're not listed.
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post #11383 of 11387 Unread 10-17-2014, 02:22 PM
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Fusion speakers were ordered about 50:1 versus the Alpha models. There was no reason at the time to have lots of money tied up in kits that no one ever ordered. Eventually they'll make another appearance, but probably listed a little different.
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post #11384 of 11387 Unread 10-19-2014, 04:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post
Hi Marty:
Conical does indeed mean round, except when you are talking about horns. All conical means in the horn context is that the walls are straight sided, as opposed to having e.g. an exponential curve. Look back at the picture I posted and you'll see the straight walls. Its 90 degrees horizontal by 45 vertical. Its built by taking two rectangular pieces of plywood, joining them at 90 degrees and hanging one 8FE200 on the outside of each piece. You then cut two triangle pieces with the right bevel angle and place them into the "V" with the points meeting in the middle vertically in back and the wide ends meeting the side walls I plan to build it myself and I designed it to be easy to build but I'm hoping someone can be induced to make a flat pack. Since this design can't be converted to a Synergy, there wouldn't be any patent issues with doing a flat pack.

I have to give credit to WayneP. I started with his midhorn but converted it from front loaded to offset driver. This allows me to use two 8" drivers instead of a single 10" driver. I think it will have better SQ and higher output than an Eminence based design both because of two drivers instead of one and because the Faital on paper seems to be cleaner and because there is a bandpass filtering effect from the offset driver mounting that filters out distortion products.

This isn't a point source design because the CD isn't in the same horn as the mids but it will give you a lower center to center distance than the typical 2 way SEOS design with a 12" or 15" midwoofer. It needs a SEOS18 or SEOS15 directly above or below it. I know you've got one waiting for a design. This could be it but so far its just on paper.

Jack
I would definitely be up for building one of these to use as my center channel just to see how I liked it! I already have a 1" Seos-18 anyway!

I am, however, confused about where the FailtalPro 8FE200's are mounted. Are they mounted on the midhorns side walls from the outside of the horn?

Also, what woofers will you be using? Will this be a WTMW configuration? What about the compression driver? Which one will you be using?
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post #11385 of 11387 Unread 10-19-2014, 07:35 AM
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Hi Marty:

On the outside of the horn wall but still inside the box. Here is a view under the covers. This is rectangular box for CC use. Its ported to extend the bass response down to where subs can take over. As I've said before, my mains are going to be in the corners and so I've also donea triangular box design for them.

If you want a WTMW configuration, you can have woofers either side or top and bottom, depending upon whether it is to fit under a flat panel or behind a screen. This box is roughly 24" wide by 16" deep so matching sub enclosures won't be difficult. If going vertical, its almost as simple as stacking the woofers and horn box up. One also has to decide how tall a box one can manage,where to cross, and what woofers to use. Before you know it you are in a Seos Maximus kind of discussion. If you already have enough woofage in the room, you may not need to add them to the CC. That is ultimately a room integration issue where the W.....W configuration can be designed to avoid exciting height modes in the room.

I have DNA360s on hand and will start with them. If FL-450s become available, I may upgrade.

Jack
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post #11386 of 11387 Unread 10-20-2014, 03:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post
Hi Marty:

On the outside of the horn wall but still inside the box. Here is a view under the covers. This is rectangular box for CC use. Its ported to extend the bass response down to where subs can take over. As I've said before, my mains are going to be in the corners and so I've also donea triangular box design for them.

If you want a WTMW configuration, you can have woofers either side or top and bottom, depending upon whether it is to fit under a flat panel or behind a screen. This box is roughly 24" wide by 16" deep so matching sub enclosures won't be difficult. If going vertical, its almost as simple as stacking the woofers and horn box up. One also has to decide how tall a box one can manage,where to cross, and what woofers to use. Before you know it you are in a Seos Maximus kind of discussion. If you already have enough woofage in the room, you may not need to add them to the CC. That is ultimately a room integration issue where the W.....W configuration can be designed to avoid exciting height modes in the room.

I have DNA360s on hand and will start with them. If FL-450s become available, I may upgrade.

Jack
That is certainly a cool design, and I may well purchase a couple of those FaitalPro 8FE200's and build this thing! Do you have an existing passive crossover that I could copy? Or, if you have an active crossover in yours, would it be possible for me to replicate it with my iNuke1000dsp? That is what I use to power my L+R speakers and I will soon be adding a bridged iNuke1000dsp for my CC. Plus, I already have a Seos-18 and a spare DNA-360!
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post #11387 of 11387 Unread 10-21-2014, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
That is certainly a cool design, and I may well purchase a couple of those FaitalPro 8FE200's and build this thing! Do you have an existing passive crossover that I could copy? Or, if you have an active crossover in yours, would it be possible for me to replicate it with my iNuke1000dsp? That is what I use to power my L+R speakers and I will soon be adding a bridged iNuke1000dsp for my CC. Plus, I already have a Seos-18 and a spare DNA-360!
Hi Marty:
This is going to be an active crossover. I have an MiniDSP 4x10 for my mains and a 2x4 that I could use for the center. But I may just buy a MiniDSP ICE PWR125. The settings could be replicated in your iNuke. You wouldn't use it in bridge mode but 1 channel for the mids and the other for the CD.

You are in good shape component wise but I still have to build one and implement the crossover for it. I hope to start this weekend but be advised I am notoriously slow.

Jack
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