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post #11881 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Bagby View Post
but it can't produce gains in mid-band sensitivity over the driver's innate half-space sensitivity, so I think 95 - 96 dB may be out of the question, but I will see what I actually get.
Sure, but if the bass frequencies are pseudo quarter space, and the midband is overlapped with the midrange, it could be doable. If crossing slow around 250hz you'll get good bandpass gain and help that floor bounce. But, you will be faced with may losses, and who knows what the sensitivity the woofer will truly make. I'm sure you'll try it both ways and go with what ever works best

Perhaps you could share your woofer measurements over on Erich's thread on Diysoundgroup when you've had a chance. I was trying to get him to make an MBM with it.
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post #11882 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Bagby View Post
Erich saw a post of mine on another forum where I was explaining why I would have placed the woofer near the floor on a speaker where a guy was getting an odd frequency response. I explained the benefits of using the boundary to your advantage, and that this is my preferred placement. That's when he sent me a note and suggested that I could flip the bass section if I wanted.

However, acoustics are all about distances, wavelengths, and frequencies, and in this case it may not make any difference which way the woofer is positioned. It will all depend on the crossover point to the midrange driver, which is capable of handling some pretty low frequencies. I will, however, check things out both ways and look at the difference. I will say this though, moving the driver closer to the boundary can be an effective way of restoring losses in sensitivity at certain frequencies, but it can't produce gains in mid-band sensitivity over the driver's innate half-space sensitivity, so I think 95 - 96 dB may be out of the question, but I will see what I actually get.
Well, I modeled it. The first graph is baffle diffraction, boundary reinforcement, and room gain in my listening room with the woofer as shown in the picture.

The second graph is the same but with the woofer cabinet flipped upside down.

It appears to make a pretty significant difference in the 100 - 300 Hz range, which would likely be covered by this driver. Although, this is usually a pretty accurate simulation program I will still take measurements and listen both ways. Depending on how it is crossed over the higher position can subjectively make the low bass stronger, so there are trade-offs either way.

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post #11883 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Sure, but if the bass frequencies are pseudo quarter space, and the midband is overlapped with the midrange, it could be doable. If crossing slow around 250hz you'll get good bandpass gain and help that floor bounce. But, you will be faced with may losses, and who knows what the sensitivity the woofer will truly make. I'm sure you'll try it both ways and go with what ever works best

Perhaps you could share your woofer measurements over on Erich's thread on Diysoundgroup when you've had a chance. I was trying to get him to make an MBM with it.
An MBM?

I have suggested that I would like to do some dual woofer designs with it. Those would have some pretty high sensitivity too.

I will provide Erich with my measurements and he can decide what to post.
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post #11884 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Bagby View Post

The second graph is the same but with the woofer cabinet flipped upside down...
meaning - driver at the floor measured 2nd?
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post #11885 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 05:14 PM
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meaning - driver at the floor measured 2nd?
Yes
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post #11886 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 06:31 PM
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MBM = mid bass module

Something with standardized settings to add to most common 2 ways. I discussed it with Erich via email, but this is the thread I was talking about: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...46.msg3749#new
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post #11887 of 12566 Old 01-08-2015, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I was trying to get him to make an MBM with it.
The box I sent Jeff sort of is a mid bass module. Sort of.


It's a bummer how long it took me to finally get the prototype speaker to Jeff. I've had the woofers sitting here for a few months with no design ready for them. That was a failure on my part, but I was busy doing year end stuff and other projects.

I do think these woofers can be used in quite a few different speaker setups. They'll work in small sealed enclosures, tuned for some serious kick in a smaller box, or run full range for music in a mid sized ported box like the picture I posted. It's a well rounded and powerful woofer.
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post #11888 of 12566 Old 01-09-2015, 10:25 AM
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We're you just going to have the single full-range vented Maximus 12, or were you going to have a smaller sealed option as well?
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post #11889 of 12566 Old 01-10-2015, 08:54 AM
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Description help needed. Anyone want to add or reword my SEOS explanation below? I've borrowed some wording from this thread, but I'm also pretty bad at explaining things. If you can think of extra reasons why the SEOS is what it is, please let me know. I didn't want to get too technical because I don't even know all that stuff. Not sure about that last sentence in the first paragraph.


************************************************

SEOS™ - Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid

The SEOS™ Project was a huge online effort spanning over 4 years on the AVS Forum. The ultimate goal was to create a superior waveguide that would significantly reduce high order modes often heard in older horns and waveguides on the market. The super ellipse shape was chosen to provide a shallower and wider dip in the on-axis response to the point of being negligible. And because the SEOS is wider than it is tall, the woofer can be placed closer to the center of the waveguide which minimizes vertical nulls and lobing issues.



The result is the class leading SEOS providing many benefits over other waveguides:


- Superior directivity control

- Near linear horizontal coverage for great off axis response

- Reduced vertical coverage for less ceiling and floor bounce

- Extremely wide listening area giving you a huge sweet spot

- Improved imaging and clarity for both music and home theater use

- Reduced High Order Modes to do away with the dreaded 'horn honk'

************************************************


Maybe something about the smooth transition between the driver and waveguide? Anything else?

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post #11890 of 12566 Old 01-10-2015, 10:30 AM
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Just my two cents here, but you need to describe in simpler terms what SEOS is before you start to describe it. Perhaps changing your first sentence to something like

The SEOS™ Project was a huge online community effort spanning over 4 years to create a family of new waveguide shapes to improve the audio performs of high sensitivity speakers."
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post #11891 of 12566 Old 01-10-2015, 05:55 PM
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My take for your consideration. Red is my adding/changing, grey is to be deleted, italics is a comment. A little bit of marketing wording as to not be to technical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

************************************************

SEOS™ - Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid

The SEOS™ Project was a huge online effort spanning over 4 years on the AVS Forum. The ultimate goal was to create a superior waveguide that would significantly reduce high order modes (HOM) often heard in older horns and waveguides on the market. The super ellipse shape was chosen to eliminate the on axis response dip. And Because the SEOS is short, the woofer can be placed closer to the center of the waveguide which minimizes vertical nulls and lobing issues. A large round over was applied to the horn mouth area to eliminate diffraction. Finally, the throat transition angle was perfectly matched to the Denono DNA-360 and B&C DE250, further reducing diffraction and HOMs.



The result is the class leading SEOS providing many benefits over other waveguides:


- Superior directivity control

- Near linear horizontal coverage for great off axis response

- Reduced vertical coverage for less ceiling and floor bounce This isn't actually all that true. The OS is better at vertical directivity.

- Extremely wide listening area giving you a huge sweet spot

- Improved imaging and clarity for both music and home theater use


- Reduced diffraction allows sound to reach the listener in it's full purity.

- Reduced High Order Modes to do away with the dreaded 'horn honk'

************************************************


Maybe something about the smooth transition between the driver and waveguide? Anything else?
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post #11892 of 12566 Old 01-10-2015, 06:44 PM
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Who is the target audience ? Maybe you should dumb it down a lot more, you don't really have to convince knowledgeable people the merits of SEOS. I wouldn't need much help building these kits as I consider myself a pretty technical person but I barely understand the benefits of the bullet points. Maybe something more from a marketing perspective?

- Superior directivity control for easier speaker placement in any listening room

- Great off axis response results in no bad seats in the house
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post #11893 of 12566 Old 01-10-2015, 06:46 PM
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Isn't reduced vertical coverage better because it reduces floor and ceiling bounce right? I realize OS has more vertical coverage but that's actually why we didn't use it. I wouldn't say "better" for the OS, I'd say "more". More isn't always better......right??

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post #11894 of 12566 Old 01-10-2015, 07:06 PM
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The OS holds directivity lower because it's taller. The seos losses directivity at a fairly high frequency, something like 3 or 4khz. The OS can hold to 1khz (talking a 12" size here). So the seos actually puts more sound out in the vertical, and exactly as you say, this is a bad thing. It's a balancing act cause the seos is shorter so you can achieve a better vertical blend with the woofer. Geddes would say reducing nulls doesn't matter, reducing vertical sound power does. The seos says the nulls matter, but if some sound escapes and hits the ceiling we'll live with that. Bill would have a really good handle on this, if he sees this conversation. Perhaps the seos was designed to have a narrower vertical polar? That would mean it makes less vertical sound power ABOVE where it losses directivity.

Last edited by tuxedocivic; 01-10-2015 at 07:07 PM.
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post #11895 of 12566 Old 01-11-2015, 03:31 AM
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I recently picked up a used 1" Seos18 waveguide that I would like to use as the central part of a center channel build. I plan to build the center first, then at some later point build a pair of Fusion 15s for the left and right channels.

What would be a good cd to use with this 1" seos18? I was thinking about the BA-750 or perhaps stepping up to a really nice cd such as the Radian 465BePb?

How low does the pattern control of the 1" Seos18 go down to? What is the lowest point I can get good directivity down to, and let's say that price is not a factor (in reality it is) what would be the best cd to use on it? I haven't decided on what I want to use on the low end. Might even make this a three way.
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post #11896 of 12566 Old 01-11-2015, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
My take for your consideration. Red is my adding/changing, grey is to be deleted, italics is a comment. A little bit of marketing wording as to not be to technical.
Tux,

The first thing I get from your edit is - what "on-axis dip"? Those of us that have read the SEOS / Geddes debates may get it, others won't. If you aren't going to explain it, don't bring it up. (I'm not an English teacher, but I'm married to one...)


As I understand it SEOS was developed to provide three main advantages:

>Smooth, constant directivity to provide consistently flat frequency response over a large listening area (as in a home theater with many listeners)

>Minimal diffraction-related high-order mode generation within the waveguide to eliminate "horn honk"

>Reduced center to center spacing of the waveguide to the woofer (as compared to circular OS waveguides), to provide better summation and reduced lobing through the crossover region

Quick intro, hit those three bullet points, follow up with links to more technical info for those that care, done.

Bill
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post #11897 of 12566 Old 01-11-2015, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post
Who is the target audience ?
this is the key point IMV, the message has to tailored to who you are talking to. FWIW the blurb posted is all about what it is not what it gives to the listener so if the intent is to sell to someone who will actually listen to the speaker then you're only going to sell "Superior directivity control" if the reader knows what sort of "directivity control" they are looking for. If they know this already then they do really need selling to?
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post #11898 of 12566 Old 01-11-2015, 06:08 PM
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Here's my take FWIW, tightened the first part up a bit, added a sentence about the throat transition, placed a touch more emphasis on what I regard as the most important (or most marketable) points.
Also took out the bullet point about floor and ceiling reflections, too open for debate IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

************************************************

SEOS™ - Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid

The SEOS™ Project was a huge online effort spanning over 4 years on the AVS Forum. The ultimate goal was to create a superior waveguide that would provide smoothly controlled directivity and significantly reduce or eliminate the internal reflections and "honk" often heard in older horns and waveguides. The super-ellipse shape minimizes on-axis response irregularities that can be an issue in round waveguides, while also allowing the woofer to be placed much closer to the center of the waveguide in order to facilitate a larger vertical listening window. And the entrance angle at the throat was carefully chosen to interface seamlessly not only with the new Denovo compression drivers but also with other popular drivers available worldwide, eliminating another often-overlooked source of troublesome reflections.



The result is the class leading SEOS providing many benefits over other waveguides:


- Superior directivity control

- Near linear horizontal coverage for great response both on- and off-axis

- Extremely wide listening area giving you a huge sweet spot

- Improved imaging and clarity for both music and home theater use

- Reduced High Order Modes to do away with the dreaded 'horn honk'

************************************************
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post #11899 of 12566 Old 01-11-2015, 10:03 PM
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I think you forgot:

- looks really cool.
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post #11900 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 04:49 AM
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- looks really cool.
Actually, I'm wondering what my wife will think once mine are built. It wouldn't surprise me if she would prefer them with grills. We'll see.
FWIW, I think it looks really cool.
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post #11901 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 02:06 PM
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It is my professional opinion that Erich needs to decide who the target audience is for DIYSG.com. I have quite a bit of experience with customer behavior and its manipulation. The wording/presentation of the website will either attract or deter more trouble than he wants.

If his target is the true DIYer then less will be better and more technical documentation is warranted. These customers want to learn and are willing to seek answers to the questions they have.

If his target is the AIY guy that just wants a deal and to glue some stuff up and move on, then all of the documentation can be "hand holding." However if this is his audience, then he will most likely never get away from the thousands of daily emails. This is the way it works when the person has no desire to actually learn and do things themselves.

At the bare minimum Erich needs to disclose in large bold letters that DIYSG.com is not a business and I suggest setting the expectation for email responses to be in excess of 3 days. This will help alieviate the shear number of emails he receives more so than any amount of documentation.
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post #11902 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
It is my professional opinion that Erich needs to decide who the target audience is for DIYSG.com. I have quite a bit of experience with customer behavior and its manipulation. The wording/presentation of the website will either attract or deter more trouble than he wants.

If his target is the true DIYer then less will be better and more technical documentation is warranted. These customers want to learn and are willing to seek answers to the questions they have.

If his target is the AIY guy that just wants a deal and to glue some stuff up and move on, then all of the documentation can be "hand holding." However if this is his audience, then he will most likely never get away from the thousands of daily emails. This is the way it works when the person has no desire to actually learn and do things themselves.

At the bare minimum Erich needs to disclose in large bold letters that DIYSG.com is not a business and I suggest setting the expectation for email responses to be in excess of 3 days. This will help alieviate the shear number of emails he receives more so than any amount of documentation.

Is the site about helping those source different components and have access to very helpful folks to design crossovers?

Is it about creating designs with known documented results that DIY folks can save time and money on? either by building their own cabinet or assembling a flat pack

Is it a site for any one person looking to remove the research, marketing, and other business costs associated with speakers? And, also lower costs further by utilizing their own labor to build or assemble speakers?

Is it all of the above? Some combo? More? Less?

I believe I am on the same page as you ... is it DIY sound group or AIY sound group ... the advancements made of adding flat packs, assembled crossovers, and such over time IMO changed things to weigh heavier on the AIY scale. I do not think the full AIY crowd will ever be satisfied without lots of hand holding.

Disclaimer: I own several of the DIYSG products and I appreciate the AIY offerings, and the possibilities that have come out of the SEOS, and all the help many have given (e.g. SEOSR)
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post #11903 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
At the bare minimum Erich needs to disclose in large bold letters that DIYSG.com is not a business and I suggest setting the expectation for email responses to be in excess of 3 days. This will help alieviate the shear number of emails he receives more so than any amount of documentation.
this
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post #11904 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 03:16 PM
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I do not think the full AIY crowd will ever be satisfied without lots of hand holding.
This is me, in a nutshell, and I have no need nor desire for "lots of hand holding." I do not, however, want to cut my own wood, solder my own crossovers, or, frankly, spend hours on finishing. So I got flat packs and assembled crossovers and I plan to have a blast, thank you very much.

I think the KITS are great for people like me. And I wouldn't have spent $1000 on speakers otherwise. I also think a lot of the hand holding will be avoided once the documentation is improved, a work in progress.

I might want to point out that it was the DIY folks who kept coming up with "How about a 15 inch?," "What about this CD over this woofer?," and all the other "suggestions" that resulted in the myriad offerings that have become DIYSG. And a problem for Erich, who is trying to be all things to all people.

We'll see what Erich decides to do. It certainly seems that this could be a real business if he wanted it to be (Kickstarter, anyone?). I think he understands that he will have a tremendous amount of support from this community, whatever direction he takes.

Michael

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post #11905 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
This is me, in a nutshell, and I have no need nor desire for "lots of hand holding." I do not, however, want to cut my own wood, solder my own crossovers, or, frankly, spend hours on finishing. So I got flat packs and assembled crossovers and I plan to have a blast, thank you very much.

I think the KITS are great for people like me. And I wouldn't have spent $1000 on speakers otherwise. I also think a lot of the hand holding will be avoided once the documentation is improved, a work in progress.

I might want to point out that it was the DIY folks who kept coming up with "How about a 15 inch?," "What about this CD over this woofer?," and all the other "suggestions" that resulted in the myriad offerings that have become DIYSG. And a problem for Erich, who is trying to be all things to all people.

We'll see what Erich decides to do. It certainly seems that this could be a real business if he wanted it to be (Kickstarter, anyone?). I think he understands that he will have a tremendous amount of support from this community, whatever direction he takes.

Michael
I deem full AIY as someone that cannot read a crossover diagram, does not understand how to glue/clamp, owns no power tools, cannot build an enclosure, etc. ... basically has no ability to do DIY or has no desire to learn or try, but wants all the benefits of DIY.

This is why I asked the questions of what is DIYSG. Is it community based for people that have DIY spirit, or is it "retail" based where customers expect the world from Erich and have no interest in utilizing the DIYSG forum or other community based assistance (e.g.expecting it all to come from Erich since they bought it from "him")
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post #11906 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 04:40 PM
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I see no problem with aiy for products. For information people to me must be diy. The expectation must be there to do research on your own. Other then xo assembly 90% of the questions asked can be found with an hour or two of searching.
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post #11907 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 07:25 PM
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I see no problem with aiy. I see a problem with expectations and identity.
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post #11908 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 10:16 PM
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Goal-Oriented Strategy

In web development, as in other product/service development, we know to be mindful of the organization's and the audience goals. This is inline with what klipsch and others are saying.
There are multiple user types. You don't have to lock it down to just one.
  • Assemble It Yourself
  • Do It Yourself
  • Speaker Designers / Potential Speaker Designers
  • Partners like Parts Express

What do you (Erich) want them to do?
What do they want to do?


All of the content and processes should facilitate those groups' goals. Everything else is wank and hurts mission.

Content Segmentation
It's really hard to categorize content and concepts. That's why many projects ask representatives of those user types to place content in categories using notecards. It's usually surprising and illuminating how the content is grouped. That's why you'll hear such differing opinions here.
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post #11909 of 12566 Old 01-12-2015, 10:26 PM
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I got flat packs, but assembled my own XO for all 7 speakers I have gotten from DIYSG. The reason for getting flat packs? Not because I couldn't do it myself. I built two subs just fine. But the price of the flat packs and shipping was WAY WAY WAY easier and efficient than going to the store, loading up several 4x8 sheets of 3/4 mdf, getting it on my car, getting it off my car into the garage, measuring, re measuring, cutting, and cleaning up mdf dust off everything in the garage. All that expense, time and energy just to get a poorer cut version of what could be delivered to my door for very little added cost to the wood I would have bought. To me, it just made sense to go with flat packs.

Other than emailing Erich about the availability of the volt 10's, all of my build and crossover questions were found in forum topics.

I don't think this needs to turn into a battle of AIY vs DIY. In the end, we all end up with awesome speakers at a great price. It's more of an issue of people being too lazy to do a little bit of research and expect a Lego set instruction manual.
doc5150 and Jag Gill like this.
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post #11910 of 12566 Old 01-13-2015, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
Goal-Oriented Strategy

In web development, as in other product/service development, we know to be mindful of the organization's and the audience goals. This is inline with what klipsch and others are saying.
There are multiple user types. You don't have to lock it down to just one.
  • Assemble It Yourself
  • Do It Yourself
  • Speaker Designers / Potential Speaker Designers
  • Partners like Parts Express

What do you (Erich) want them to do?
What do they want to do?


All of the content and processes should facilitate those groups' goals. Everything else is wank and hurts mission.

Content Segmentation
It's really hard to categorize content and concepts. That's why many projects ask representatives of those user types to place content in categories using notecards. It's usually surprising and illuminating how the content is grouped. That's why you'll hear such differing opinions here.
Couldn't agree more ... probably because I am in the software/web development profession
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