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post #12031 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM
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^Google baffle wall whitepaper:

This has some good info:

http://www.procella.citymax.com/f/Pr...n_v2.5_Web.pdf

While elaborate baffle wall construction techniques exist and are employed with great success. The major attributes which must be addressed on the baffle wall are to make the baffle approximately equal to or larger than the half wavelength of the frequencies that you want to contain into half space(2 pi) and to construct such containment to be of adequate mass and rigidity to contain the wave. I have found 2x4 studs covered with 3/4 MDF to be substantial enough to contain the wave, but some transmission to the back space occurs and should be addressed.

If the space behind the baffle wall is to be sealed you should consider damping it with absorption to reduce any resonance/transmission.

It is recommended to cover the face of the baffle wall with some form of absorption, especially behind the screen assuming it will be a front PJ AT screen.

If doing a curved wall remember that the screen is flat and all that accompanies that scenario unless employing a curved screen.
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post #12032 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 07:14 AM
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I'm noticing some differences from my old coaxial based speakers (JTR Quintuple 8) and the new waveguide/seos based speakers and am not sure if I'm mistaken.

There are 3 differences (in order of most noticeable compared to a speaker that costs 6x more):
1. Sound stage (Mostly the height) - Feels like sitting up or slouching a little big can make the sound less enveloping. The width/imaging seems to be less sensitive but still more susceptible to alterations (ie. toe in, listening position.)

2. Top end vs upper mids - I feel like the top end clarity is a bit rolled off or less sharp. Still very clear but some things I know can have more "sizzle" are just not 100%. Also, the upper mid area (my term not sure of the range) seems to almost be pushing out more because of the top end. Not sure which is causing which to be noticeable.

3. Mid-bass/"fullness" - This is totally expected... 1 10" vs 5 8"...

I know I am not the best builder and I know these speakers COMBINED cost barely over HALF of ONE of the JTR... So over all it is VERY impressive...

My question:

Is the sound stage I am noticing a general property of waveguide speakers or could something else be causing it?

The sound stage and upper end have me considering if the 1099 would be a better fit for the sound I am use to.
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post #12033 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM
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Which SEOS speaker do you have?

Do you have any measurements?

All large format two ways with only two drivers have vertical nulls. Your JTRs were probably better in that regard due to their WCW alignment. You should measure and make sure your not sitting in a null. The WCW would probably be better at mitigating floor and ceiling bounce which matters a lot. Is you room treated at all?



The high frequency stuff your talking about sounds like a voicing thing to me.
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post #12034 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
I'm noticing some differences from my old coaxial based speakers (JTR Quintuple 8) and the new waveguide/seos based speakers and am not sure if I'm mistaken.

There are 3 differences (in order of most noticeable compared to a speaker that costs 6x more):
1. Sound stage (Mostly the height) - Feels like sitting up or slouching a little big can make the sound less enveloping. The width/imaging seems to be less sensitive but still more susceptible to alterations (ie. toe in, listening position.)

2. Top end vs upper mids - I feel like the top end clarity is a bit rolled off or less sharp. Still very clear but some things I know can have more "sizzle" are just not 100%. Also, the upper mid area (my term not sure of the range) seems to almost be pushing out more because of the top end. Not sure which is causing which to be noticeable.

3. Mid-bass/"fullness" - This is totally expected... 1 10" vs 5 8"...

I know I am not the best builder and I know these speakers COMBINED cost barely over HALF of ONE of the JTR... So over all it is VERY impressive...

My question:

Is the sound stage I am noticing a general property of waveguide speakers or could something else be causing it?

The sound stage and upper end have me considering if the 1099 would be a better fit for the sound I am use to.
I would have been very surprised if you hadn't noticed some specific differences ( considering the component types & their layouts ) when comparing the two designs .

An MTM setup ( based around a point-source coax ) ought to give much better imaging depth ( assuming the design is properly implemented ) . Sound-stage width should be broader ( though shallower ) with the SEOS waveguide . The T8 should give a taller more coherent image ( that holds together longer as a person changes their vertical position ) .

If JTR used a coax in their T8 housing a metal diaphragm ( & I don't know if they did ? ) , then that could play into an audible difference ( at least for me ) compared to the plastic diaphragmed drivers ( I find the metal types a bit crisper ) .

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post #12035 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
Oh goodness! I am sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. I just figured that rather than clog up the forum with a bunch of questions, that it would be better to use PM. Perhaps I am wrong, sorry for that.
That is what forums are for. Any questions, and subsequent answers/information to those questions make the forum stronger for all. A PM is selfish... like only you are privileged to the info. PM should be for "private" conversations only. Sorry to come off like a jerk, not my intention. I think I am just a little sensitive to the PM thing. I've been raped a bunch of times with it.

Sounds like you got some great info already (even though this thread isn't about baffle walls). I think if you dig up a search in the dedicated forum you'll find everything you need, and if you have a question start a thread asking it, or bump a thread on the the topic of baffle walls.

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post #12036 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post
Which SEOS speaker do you have?

Do you have any measurements?

All large format two ways with only two drivers have vertical nulls. Your JTRs were probably better in that regard due to their WCW alignment. You should measure and make sure your not sitting in a null. The WCW would probably be better at mitigating floor and ceiling bounce which matters a lot. Is you room treated at all?



The high frequency stuff your talking about sounds like a voicing thing to me.
I don't have measurements... Never couple understand REW (I am not claiming I am an expert... just know what my ears say.)

The seating position has not changed so I don't think it would be a null issue.

The room is slightly treated but not with ideal accousctics in mind. I simply found the places that seemed logical and could asthetically support panels and hung them. They are about 2.5-3" thick panels in frames on the wall. 2x2' between the FL/C and C/FL (2 panels), then 5 1x4' panels on the near L wall (close to seating are and L speaker), 3 1x4' behind the seating area/rear wall, and 1 2x4' 1 1x4' on the rear wall far right.

The ceiling is high (nearly 10') and there is a thick area rug on the floor. the ceiling has some texture/beams and the side on the far R has a window nook with 3 windows jutting out almost in a triangle.

Its a complicated room ha...

Does the 1099 with its round and less controlled directivity mid range, twice the woofers for mid bass and reportedly more crisp high end sound like it would be more fitting what I am looking for?

Note: I have the Pure-10... And to anyone considering PLEASE don't take my input wrong! I got use to a VERY high end speaker and enjoyed it. My point of reference is that design, these speakers are VERY good overall.
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post #12037 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 09:29 AM
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You might like the sound of a big waveguide, and a low crossover point. It's single point source, and it's well controlled. I know that is very popular around here, and one of the goals of the SEOS project in general.

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post #12038 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 09:35 AM
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Oops, I just responded to this same post in the 1099 thread. I thought you had the 1099s based on that post. Here's my post changes in RED to reflect the Pure 10.

Hi goonstopher.

First I'll address #2 . This comes as a bit of a shock to me as I've compared the 1099 to the 228HT (not the T8, but both JTR) and the 1099 has a slightly brighter top end. I'm not sure if the T8 has a peak in the treble you're accustomed to, or what's going on. If anything, people say the 1099 has to much sizzle. I know coaxial speakers ALWAYS have an irregular treble response and perhaps there's some peakyness left in. I really don't know what could be the cause. For the Pure 10, I still find this shocking. The frequency response is pretty flat and top end shouldn't be lacking. Still thinking there might be a peak you're used to or something.

As for #1 , yes, this speaker (the Pure 10) will be more directional horizontally and have a slightly different vertical directivity. As for sitting up or slouching, I can't understand how that small of a difference would be audible due to the speaker. Immediately I think it much be the cushions on your couch or something. That's at best 24" and unless you're sitting less than 5ft away there's no way it would make much difference. Have you switched back to the T8 to see if you're not noticing something you didn't before, because you have something new and are listening specifically for differences? I still do that. In any case, an 8" coax will have a more uniform vertical dispersion.

3. 1 10" vs 5 8" ?? The 1099 has 2 10" and I thought the T8 has 2 8"? Either way, I think this is probably quite a realistic difference you're hearing. In my experience with the 228, JTR tunes the speaker quite high to provide a midbass hump. Personally, I don't care for it. It's coloration to the sound as far as I'm concerned. But you've probably become accustomed to a bit more midbass than the Pure provides. Now, the Pure certainly can offer the same midbass, you'll just have to use eq to get it, and ultimate output will decrease or do the port tuning I mention in the modications section of the first post of this thread. You cut the ports to raise the tuning to about 70hz which will put a little extra kick into the midbass. I'd recommend using eq to get that kick over cutting the ports though, so consider this carefully.

Your last sentence confuses me, you do prefer the 1099 to the T8? Or did you mean to write the T8 would be a better fit?

One last thing, is there any chance the XO has a mistake? Gotta ask
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post #12039 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Oops, I just responded to this same post in the 1099 thread. I thought you had the 1099s based on that post. Here's my post changes in RED to reflect the Pure 10.

Hi goonstopher.

First I'll address #2 . This comes as a bit of a shock to me as I've compared the 1099 to the 228HT (not the T8, but both JTR) and the 1099 has a slightly brighter top end. I'm not sure if the T8 has a peak in the treble you're accustomed to, or what's going on. If anything, people say the 1099 has to much sizzle. I know coaxial speakers ALWAYS have an irregular treble response and perhaps there's some peakyness left in. I really don't know what could be the cause. For the Pure 10, I still find this shocking. The frequency response is pretty flat and top end shouldn't be lacking. Still thinking there might be a peak you're used to or something.

As for #1 , yes, this speaker (the Pure 10) will be more directional horizontally and have a slightly different vertical directivity. As for sitting up or slouching, I can't understand how that small of a difference would be audible due to the speaker. Immediately I think it much be the cushions on your couch or something. That's at best 24" and unless you're sitting less than 5ft away there's no way it would make much difference. Have you switched back to the T8 to see if you're not noticing something you didn't before, because you have something new and are listening specifically for differences? I still do that. In any case, an 8" coax will have a more uniform vertical dispersion.

3. 1 10" vs 5 8" ?? The 1099 has 2 10" and I thought the T8 has 2 8"? Either way, I think this is probably quite a realistic difference you're hearing. In my experience with the 228, JTR tunes the speaker quite high to provide a midbass hump. Personally, I don't care for it. It's coloration to the sound as far as I'm concerned. But you've probably become accustomed to a bit more midbass than the Pure provides. Now, the Pure certainly can offer the same midbass, you'll just have to use eq to get it, and ultimate output will decrease or do the port tuning I mention in the modications section of the first post of this thread. You cut the ports to raise the tuning to about 70hz which will put a little extra kick into the midbass. I'd recommend using eq to get that kick over cutting the ports though, so consider this carefully.

Your last sentence confuses me, you do prefer the 1099 to the T8? Or did you mean to write the T8 would be a better fit?

One last thing, is there any chance the XO has a mistake? Gotta ask
The XO is made by Erich so not that.
Also I HAD the QUINTUPLE 8's (long gone sadly)

I grealty appreciate the help and will respond moe detailed shortly.

just a crazy AM at the office.. I shouldn't be on here at all right now ha
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post #12040 of 12043 Old Yesterday, 10:22 AM
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I've never assembled any crossovers for the 10" models. You might be thinking of something else.
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post #12041 of 12043 Unread Yesterday, 08:06 PM
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Thanks erich, I just got them back assembled. Should not have assumed you did it.

Biggest thing I want to make clear though:

My questions were only meant to be about understanding the design differences between 2 different approaches. TROUNCES if pricey competition in 2 areas (value and size to output/immersion/sq ratio).

The small subjective differences would not even be dreamed of by someone who hadn't been one of the origonal chearleaders for JTR and I still am very partial to their sound and Jeff, who has been very patient, helpful and always MORE than fair in any business/pricing issue.

Do be comparing differences that are minor to my personal "ideal", is a huge compliment for any speaker to me (example, I find klipsh of all kinds dreadful. Painful.)
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post #12042 of 12043 Unread Today, 05:56 AM
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A question on vertical directivity & the SEOS10... tweeter height is 6-7 degrees below ear height in my room so I am wondering whether I apply a slight rake to the front baffle just to bring it right on target.

The measurements I've found for the 10 are in post 1197& this suggests there is 2-3dB lost in those first 7.5 degrees so a slight rake would be sensible. Is that the consensus view?
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post #12043 of 12043 Unread Today, 05:56 AM
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A question on vertical directivity & the SEOS10... tweeter height is 6-7 degrees below ear height in my room so I am wondering whether I apply a slight rake to the front baffle just to bring it right on target.

The measurements I've found for the 10 are in post 1197& this suggests there is 2-3dB lost in those first 7.5 degrees so a slight rake would be sensible. Is that the consensus view?
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