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post #12151 of 12630 Old 02-12-2015, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post
Actually Geddes argues against normalization. Like tux says I think either way can be useful depending on what you're looking at. I prefer none.
I also prefer none.
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post #12152 of 12630 Old 02-12-2015, 02:26 PM
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I pushed an update that does both normalised and unnormalised circular polars

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post #12153 of 12630 Old 02-12-2015, 07:04 PM
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very impressive concept, I like it
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post #12154 of 12630 Old 02-13-2015, 04:20 PM
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BTW, the OmniMic software can do those polars as well (give it a list of FRD files, you can assign angles to each), and will do it even if you don't have the OmniMic hardware. Download the software and install, Windows computers. http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...nt-system.html

You can actually do a lot with the OmniMic software, for display and curve math, without having to buy an Omnimic. I'm not sure whether Dayton audio publicises that fact, I wish they would
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post #12155 of 12630 Old 02-13-2015, 07:22 PM
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That's what I've done in the past, thanks Bill!

One trick I found is that if you put the measurement angle at the end of the name when saving the frd file example: "SEOS-15 DNA-360 2.83v 1m 30.frd" Omnimic will automatically assign it to that angle, in this case 30 degrees.

Though I have also found it does not like importing files with all the text data that REW puts before the measurement data in its exported frd files. So you have to go in and remove all that first, a quick highlight, backspace and save in notepad does the trick.
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post #12156 of 12630 Old 02-17-2015, 06:52 PM
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Excellent design!!

1) will the dual woofer version use a slot port?
2) since you may offer a fl-450 based center speaker, will there be a fl-450 based surround speaker? Basically top half of Maximus 12
3) what will the dual woofer version be tuned to?
4) what is the max power of the dual woofer? 2000 watts?
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post #12157 of 12630 Old 02-17-2015, 07:27 PM
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No decisions on the dual woofer model yet. The woofers were designed to hit 80hz in a small sealed enclosure or killer midbass in small ported enclosures. And of course can run 'full range' in a medium sized enclosure.

I don't really see much reason to put two of them in a large box and tune down around 40hz or less. If two are used, they will either be sealed or tuned higher for massive midbass because people will be using subwoofers either way.

Yes, there will be a matching surround, even though there's really no reason to have matching surrounds like that.

I'm not sure what the max power will be until a decision is made on ported, sealed, etc. It will be well more than anyone would ever use though. I believe Jeff said duals would allow for a sensitivity of 99db from 40hz on up, which of course is pretty crazy.

The design is pretty much done, it's just being tweaked a little.

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post #12158 of 12630 Old 02-17-2015, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
No decisions on the dual woofer model yet. The woofers were designed to hit 80hz in a small sealed enclosure or killer midbass in small ported enclosures. And of course can run 'full range' in a medium sized enclosure.

I don't really see much reason to put two of them in a large box and tune down around 40hz or less. If two are used, they will either be sealed or tuned higher for massive midbass because people will be using subwoofers either way.

Yes, there will be a matching surround, even though there's really no reason to have matching surrounds like that.

I'm not sure what the max power will be until a decision is made on ported, sealed, etc. It will be well more than anyone would ever use though. I believe Jeff said duals would allow for a sensitivity of 99db from 40hz on up, which of course is pretty crazy.

The design is pretty much done, it's just being tweaked a little.
Sensitivity of 99db from 40hz from duals...sounds like mid bass madness!!

Definitely tune the duals for mid bass rather than extension especially since the size of the lower half cabinet will not be changing.
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post #12159 of 12630 Old 02-17-2015, 10:25 PM
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Mid bass, mid bass, mid bass.
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post #12160 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post


Excellent design!!

1) will the dual woofer version use a slot port?
2) since you may offer a fl-450 based center speaker, will there be a fl-450 based surround speaker? Basically top half of Maximus 12
3) what will the dual woofer version be tuned to?
4) what is the max power of the dual woofer? 2000 watts?
Is that the 1899 or the Seos Maximus?
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post #12161 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 06:00 AM
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WAY to small for the 1899 or Maximus.
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post #12162 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
WAY to small for the 1899 or Maximus.
Another great design would be a MTM with dual 12 tuned to around 60hz.
If this outputs around 99db, it may give 90% of the performance of a JTR 212 noesis for less than a third of the price.
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post #12163 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 12:19 PM
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Sure, let's come up with MORE stuff for Erich to do.


Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #12164 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
Another great design would be a MTM with dual 12 tuned to around 60hz.
If this outputs around 99db, it may give 90% of the performance of a JTR 212 noesis for less than a third of the price.
Why only 90%
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post #12165 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 12:59 PM
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Why only 90%
Eric mentioned in the diysg forum, a dual 12" MTM with a BA-750 cd and seos 15 waveguide. Don't know how this compares with bms coaxial cd used in the JTR Noesis 212. Just putting out 90% as a guess for now.
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post #12166 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
Eric mentioned in the diysg forum, a dual 12" MTM with a BA-750 cd and seos 15 waveguide. Don't know how this compares with bms coaxial cd used in the JTR Noesis 212. Just putting out 90% as a guess for now.
That BMS 4593 coax compression driver is crazy expensive!....LOL
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post #12167 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 05:49 PM
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That BMS 4593 coax compression driver is crazy expensive!....LOL
And that one is the least desirable of BMS's coax CDs.
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post #12168 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
Another great design would be a MTM with dual 12 tuned to around 60hz.
Oooh, that'd be slick... but how about a stupid-cheap one, too, (Dayton 12s + DNA-150?) for we cheapskates and/or tin ears lusting after all the awesome builds 'round this joint? : )

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Why only 90%
I'm sure many would love a super-quality, zillion% option... but how about 70% -- for 10% of the cost, too?

I can't help but think there'd be some revenue opportunities in an easily-fulfilled format for DIYSG: Something like "CD + confidential XO diagram and build instructions/options; you source the rest of the parts from wherever you like, and build your own baffle, ya' cheapskate" for some -super- low-cost / entry-level-but-interesting designs.

But maybe I'm the only cheapskate around here?

Heck, I'd volunteer to do order fulfillment for a few models like that; CDs + printouts would probably even fit safely in fixed-rate USPS boxes. Some of us have more space than audio budget, and I'd be happy to help!
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post #12169 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 06:13 PM
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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here...

Erich is already selling kits at or below cost, thanks to him getting bulk pricing on components. Cheapskate or not, I'm not sure you can beat him on price or quality.
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post #12170 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 06:45 PM
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Tall freak, there has been designs done with some of the cheap waveguides and $50 woofers and stuff. Nobody is in to them.
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post #12171 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 06:56 PM
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I thought about doing a B-Stock kit. One or two that used some waveguides that have imperfections that don't actually effect sound quality and some DNA-205's that have a little blip in their frequency response up over 15khz. No one would notice the slight dip at that range but I sit them aside anyway.

I don't have a lot of them but they would make for some good but cheap speaker kits. Just not sure what woofers to pair them up with.

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post #12172 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post
Oooh, that'd be slick... but how about a stupid-cheap one, too, (Dayton 12s + DNA-150?) for we cheapskates and/or tin ears lusting after all the awesome builds 'round this joint? : )

I'm sure many would love a super-quality, zillion% option... but how about 70% -- for 10% of the cost, too?

I can't help but think there'd be some revenue opportunities in an easily-fulfilled format for DIYSG: Something like "CD + confidential XO diagram and build instructions/options; you source the rest of the parts from wherever you like, and build your own baffle, ya' cheapskate" for some -super- low-cost / entry-level-but-interesting designs.

But maybe I'm the only cheapskate around here?

Heck, I'd volunteer to do order fulfillment for a few models like that; CDs + printouts would probably even fit safely in fixed-rate USPS boxes. Some of us have more space than audio budget, and I'd be happy to help!
You would have been a good candidate for the Cheap Thrills, which featured a 12" SEOS and a 15" woofer. This had an incredible sound for $112 per speaker kit with CD, horn, XO and baffle, and I had to buy the $50 woofer and make my own box, $45 per sheet of 3/4" MDF.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...hp?topic=221.0

I wouldn't presume to intrude on Bill Waslo's XO, but I don't see any reason why the DNA-205 ($34) couldn't replace the kit's DNA-360 ($79). In fact, I like the slightly smoother sound of the 205 better.
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post #12173 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post
Another great design would be a MTM with dual 12 tuned to around 60hz.
If this outputs around 99db, it may give 90% of the performance of a JTR 212 noesis for less than a third of the price.
You mean like the Klipsch CF-4? The CF-4 is a phenominal 2-way design, has a huge sound, and is highly sought after by Klipsch guys on the used market, even today.

These were $2500 a pair when new in 1994. My $500 per pair Fusion 10 Pure when paired with a sub comes 95% as close in every way, except the Fusion 10's are more accurate.
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post #12174 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
You would have been a good candidate for the Cheap Thrills, which featured a 12" SEOS and a 15" woofer. This had an incredible sound for $112 per speaker kit with CD, horn, XO and baffle, and I had to buy the $50 woofer and make my own box, $45 per sheet of 3/4" MDF.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...hp?topic=221.0

I wouldn't presume to intrude on Bill Waslo's XO, but I don't see any reason why the DNA-205 ($34) couldn't replace the kit's DNA-360 ($79). In fact, I like the slightly smoother sound of the 205 better.
I thought the CT's could no longer be made as the buyout woof is gone, no?
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post #12175 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 08:48 PM
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There's ALWAYS a buyout woofer:

http://www.parts-express.com/promo/c...2)]&PortalID=1

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #12176 of 12630 Old 02-18-2015, 09:23 PM
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I dont see the point in using a buyout. The design will go dead in short order and all the work that went into it only benefited a limited audience.

The problem with using a smaller CD like the 205 is crossing it low enough to a large driver like a 15". A 12" woofer might make more sense for that CD (not sure what the low end is on the 205 though?). The Dayton PA310 looks like a good option at $65. it has a fairly smooth response which should keep crossover cost down.

Looking at 15"s the Tymphany FSL-1520R02-08 also has a very smooth response for $75, but you probably wouldnt want to go above around 1200hz
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post #12177 of 12630 Old 02-19-2015, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I thought about doing a B-Stock kit. One or two that used some waveguides that have imperfections that don't actually effect sound quality and some DNA-205's that have a little blip in their frequency response up over 15khz. No one would notice the slight dip at that range but I sit them aside anyway.

I don't have a lot of them but they would make for some good but cheap speaker kits. Just not sure what woofers to pair them up with.
Celestion ?
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post #12178 of 12630 Old 02-19-2015, 04:28 AM
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Tall freak, there has been designs done with some of the cheap waveguides and $50 woofers and stuff. Nobody is in to them.
Bull. They were just too cheap to pull the trigger and order them.
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post #12179 of 12630 Old 02-19-2015, 09:50 AM
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Erich is already selling kits at or below cost, thanks to him getting bulk pricing on components. Cheapskate or not, I'm not sure you can beat him on price or quality.
I have absolutely no doubt about the quality and value of DIYSG designs. None. Nothing but wonderful things to be read about DIYSG projects. In fact, I should just jump in the pool and buy F10s.

And that raises an excellent point: Why kit and ship anything that -isn't- fabulous? Even with a caveat of "[design] prioritizes final cost over ALL else," there would certainly be people buying, then complaining. Because people suck. There's a reason Tiffany's doesn't sell cubic zirconia.

But the F12, just as an example, is $700/pr just for parts, using a $140 woofer and $80 CD. Is a passable 12" two-way not possible, say, with a $50 woofer and a $20-40 CD? The results would -certainly- not be comparable, but might still best anything you can buy in a store for $300/pr? There's a -big- difference between $800/pr and $400/pr... and if ya' think about 7.x.....

Or maybe that's just not possible?

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Tall freak, there has been designs done with some of the cheap waveguides and $50 woofers and stuff. Nobody is in to them.
Would that be known for sure? The enthusiasts will post about their awesome builds... but would the more modest not possibly just build on their own, without fanfare? I have to wonder how many SEOS12s PE would ship if there was a link to a < $150-200/each design right there on the product description page?

Of course, I can -certainly- see it being counterproductive to offer them as a time- and resource-consuming kit at DIYSG or elsewhere, with "well, it's just another [$x00] to get a 'better' product..." thinking among purchasers.

Maybe it is just me. I'll work to accept that. I'm weird. *I* can't get past thinking something like "$75 gets you a waveguide, CD and parts list to build a [$200 12-91, or $150 12" 2way, etc]" would be an easily-shipped, interesting offering. But I am cheap and like old, weird cars, older, weirder boats, and masochism.

I guess I'm just frustrated that the public designs I've found all seem to use NLA drivers (DNA-150s, say, which may or may not return for sale outside a kit (and almost certainly aren't worth dealing with individually for Mr. H); or the Cheap Thrills), or are outdated (Econowave's D220 has been surpassed, from what I read, as has its WG been improved upon by the SEOS 12), or defeat the frugality aspect with a numerous-part XO (e.g. Mr. Waslow's Dayton 12-based design available at the DIYSG forum is, I am sure, fantastic, and uses "only" a $75 woofer, but $50+ in XO parts and a $100 CD).

Honest question: Have a missed a public, "here's a screamin' cheap, simple, all-parts-readily-available way to get the intellectually and philosophically super-cool SEOS12 into your life" design?

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I thought about doing a B-Stock kit.
I wouldn't presume to make demands, or even suggestions, but I know at least *I* am a little frustrated by the idea that you have B-stock that could turn into cash and go to a good home, but no (public) way to use it super-frugally.^ There may not be many of us, but am I really the only one who would jump on "$100 B-stock kit: B-stock waveguide, XO schematic, CD, enclosure dimensions; no baffle, no emails, no support, no free shipping"? At least it'd turn some inventory back into cash....

^ I may have bought a pair of B-stock SEOS12s feeling like it might help the cause (and 'cuz I wanted to see them in person, 'cuz they're cool!), that are now sitting elegantly on my desk waiting for something to be done with them at some point. ; )

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You would have been a good candidate for the Cheap Thrills
Well aware! I may really be the -only- case of "just found this awesome forum about two weeks after the last woofer was sold." ; ) Somehow _just_ managed to miss that ride. And that's pro'ly why I am pining for something absurd. I'll go back to sitting on my hands and hoping for another sudden surprise knockout.

But, the popularity of the CT, along with the Econowaves, does kinda lend -some- support to the notion that there might be some interest in a -super- low-budget SEOS design... and wouldn't moving SEOS-12s via PE put some money in the DIYSG research coffers with zero effort?

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Bull. They were just too cheap to pull the trigger and order them.
Then, of course, there's that. "Maybe if I wait, there'll be an even BETTER, CHEAPER thrill!" At least some of us are kindasorta self-aware. ; )

Fundamentally, and most importantly, though, many thanks to all who share their knowledge and effort, at any budget level! *No* criticism implied or intended!
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post #12180 of 12630 Old 02-19-2015, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post

Would that be known for sure? The enthusiasts will post about their awesome builds... but would the more modest not possibly just build on their own, without fanfare? I have to wonder how many SEOS12s PE would ship if there was a link to a < $150-200/each design right there on the product description page?
They have to email me for the design, so ya I think so.
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