Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 409 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12241 of 12250 Old Today, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I just see it as a threat and monopoly to DIY, with DIY group taking over here. I mean no offense when I voice this concern, but a sub forum dedicated only to the DIYsoundgroup and it's products - and a moderated or structured format isn't in keeping with the idea of DO IT YOURSELF or the free form forum spirit of AVS.
Ah that explains the confusion. It isn't that a sub-forum grouping build threads isn't helpful, but that it's distasteful to you.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
You can't buy a waveguide, or a CD, but every new DIY project that hits around here seems to have a coinciding "kit" available almost magically at DIY group. I can't be the only one that notices this.
How do you explain kits that are out of stock? If the agenda were to force everyone to buy a kit, then the individual drivers would be out of stock, but the kit would be in stock.

The SEOS-12 is available on Parts Express. I see there's a stub of a site for Denovo. Maybe that's going to become the place to buy individual drivers?

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I guess I probably don't understand the end game or vision. The subforum makes sense if Erich wants to turn it into a full time business, and capitalize on the sales and marketing from AVS and having your own forum, but it makes a lot less sense if he doesn't. I keep seeing him say he doesn't. But every move seems to indicate he does. I'm on board for whatever, but I think the community just needs some transparency. The community is really supportive of the effort but would they be as supportive if it's a business?
Is there room in the list of organizational models for a community, co-op, nonprofit org, or nonprofit association? All of these have paid staff, they charge people money, and they do or make stuff. There's no profit. Money gets rolled into community benefit (lower prices, commissioning new designs, more inventory on stock that's risky, etc.).

I suggested this to Erich before in an email. Then it's not one man, but rather several people from the community. It makes for more trust, transparency, and shared effort/responsibility. It's more sustainable.
Bylaws / charter documents set forth the purpose, to blah blah blah and not to enrich shareholders, but rather for the community. People in this thread have talked about "memberships" before, too.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
My biggest gripe if I have any is there is a new kit hitting every other day, and all this attention on stuff like a sub forum but you can't even order a waveguide or a compression driver. Shouldn't that get prioritized or fixed before anything else? This SEOS project started with a waveguide and CD right? It's expanded to the point you can't even order those anymore.
It sounds like your gripe starts the way Beast's does: You're more advanced and graduated than most users, and you want to buy individual parts during a time that's difficult to get them.

SEOS started with just the waveguide. The CD just came as a cheaper and then superior alternative to the 250, but I wouldn't consider the CD part of SEOS. And SEOS is its own thing, as evidenced by one model available on Parts Express.
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post #12242 of 12250 Old Today, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Can we call a spade a spade here? How about we change this to:

"A community of speaker designers and builders devoted to bringing Erich the best DIY loudspeaker designs and technologies available, so that he may offer it to the masses and profit from other's concepts"

I am all for sharing. I have to admire you and DIYSG, you have managed to find a spot where you can dig into other's concepts and get those out to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to design such things, and, at incredible prices. and the best part, nobody even gets mad!!! The problem here is, we have moved past a few kits with OPEN SOURCE materials, and the generosity of a few great guys around here to do a couple designs. We are now in the proprietary driver, not selling the kits as separates anymore, openly entering other peoples threads and hawking their ideas territory. It makes me sick.

Turning a profit currently or not, you can't lie to me or anyone else around here and say you don't want to (or already are) make(ing) money at this venture. @Mike Lang is pretty clear: "No marketing is to be done outside of the classifieds section." IMO, a subforum would basically be like a huge throw-net for new sales for DIYSG. JBL doesn't get their own subforum, nor does JTR, Seaton, etc. They keep their product concepts and sales to their own dedicated forums, or a single thread here.

I gotta agree with Mike here, this place has turned into a "DIFM" type area and it kinda stinks. I recon everyone has to start somewhere, and even I was an early adopter of DIYSG's concept. But the second I saw the word "proprietary" getting thrown around, and was refused when requesting standalone drivers without "Buying the entire kit" which I didn't NEED, I knew the game had changed. I certainly don't think the DoItForMeSoundGroup posts even have a place anymore in the DIY section, but I also don't think they have a place on AVS in general. This is now a business, no longer a garage jockey endeavor.

Once again, in the immortal words of Young HOV, Jay-z... "I call a spade a spade, it just is what it is."

though i'm pretty neutral on the matter, there are many folks who have expressed similar sentiments.
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post #12243 of 12250 Old Today, 02:49 PM
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I'm all for an AVS subforum for DIYSG. Scanning down the 'DIY Speakers and Subs', there is a mix of such and making it easier to single out Erich's stuff seems like a good idea to me.

To how many new people does a thread named "Hey guys, we need a little rallying here" suggest DIYSG, SEOS or even general waveguide discussions?

As far as Erich making a profit now (hard to imagine) or building a possibly someday profitable business, I don't see the problem or any contradiction. Is it a problem when Group Buys don't send you free stuff and even charge for postage? I hope Erich does eventually come out ahead from all of this. He currently has a huge investment in stock, his building (large, this isn't from his basement or kitchen table), and his time.

No, it's not a bunch of guys occasionally chipping in with a DIY idea on a common design, but why does it have to be that? There's plenty of that here on AVS and DiyAudio, and it progresses about as slowly as you'd expect. In DIYSG, there's a guy giving a lot of time, money and effort, and focusing effort for quick progress. If any designer has issues with donating his designs or wisdom, no one is forcing anyone. I donated designs because I thought they were neat and like the idea of people listening to speakers I designed. I'm pretty sure a lot fewer would be listening if I was doing it alone and charging licensing fees!

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post #12244 of 12250 Old Today, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
{Do I even say something}

I think there's fair concerns being put forward here. This whole thing has only been happening for a couple years and I think it's really grown out of control for Erich. He bought a pile of JBL stuff, cause it's what people wanted. He bought a pile of MFW15s because it's what people wanted. He got the SEOS 12 made, because it's what people wanted. He made up kits, because it's what people wanted. He got proprietary drivers made because they're black, because it's what people wanted. He made flat packs, because it's what people wanted. He doesn't sell the compression drivers, because people want the kits. Etc. You can see the growth and changes, expected or not, I don't know. But it has gotten to a point that's tough to manage. Bill Waslo was warning him over a year ago

As someone who has done a few designs to be sold through Erich, this was entirely for the DIY community. Not for a business as I hope some of my previous posts have made clear. Other designers might have a different view of that, I don't know. I wouldn't be opposed to providing designs to a business for a fee. Just, putting that out there.
I think you are right on the money with this. As for what to say... less is more. Sometimes it is anyways.

I never understood why a designer doesn't do a design and just make a thread, post the design, use off the shelf parts. What's the point of Erich anyways? I do not mean this to be insulting... honestly I do not. I am sincere in asking. If a designer wanted to give away a design to the community, what purpose does DIYgroup serve to that designer?

Let's assume design something, post a thread, and the design info. How come I can't just go to PE and buy off the shelf parts? Buy the SEOS from Erich. Make my speaker? Wasn't that the original purpose? And the designer was doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, just because they love to do it, have a passion, and like the pat on the back from the community for making awesome speakers. Right?

I've seen so many people try to buy a waveguide or compression driver and get turned down or not be able to do that because Erich is so busy in a million other directions, but I don't understand why that happens. I think that should be fixed first, before anything else. That was the original heart of this whole thing. Why the priority for a kit over a simple CD or waveguide. I know there is a A LOT of people that have experienced this. You can't keep growing if you can't even keep up with the basic core in my opinion. That's really I think some of the frustration of a lot of people.

I know Beastaudio wanted to buy some DNA150's for his coax project, but before Erich would sell him a pair there was a VOLT product kit available that included them. You could buy the kit, still Beast never got his 150's.

This is probably a delicate subject and I'm just another idiot on the interwebs. But it's interesting to me. I'd like to see DIY group go back to it roots helping the DIY community, or evolve into DIFM audio and turn into a business. It can't do both though.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #12245 of 12250 Old Today, 03:00 PM
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To be clear, when I said "I think there's fair concerns being put foward here" I didn't mean they were correct or justified. I just understand them. I don't think we get to decide how Erich spends his money for our benefit. Not sure my post made sense...
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post #12246 of 12250 Old Today, 03:10 PM
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I've seen so many people try to buy a waveguide or compression driver and get turned down or not be able to do that because Erich is so busy in a million other directions, but I don't understand why that happens. I think that should be fixed first, before anything else. That was the original heart of this whole thing. Why the priority for a kit over a simple CD or waveguide. I know there is a A LOT of people that have experienced this.
Here's how I see it: Erich has provided HIS cash investment, HIS time, HIS building, HIS (unbelievably difficult) efforts in dealing with overseas suppliers, HIS availability, HIS shipping skills. I somehow think this entitles him to do things as HE thinks is best, no? But apparently some who have donated little more than some forum posts feel this is unfair? REALLY?!?

I suspect that Erich has closer exposure to how things go in doing all this than any of the rest of us, and has to use this experience to decide what is the most efficient way to do the most. How in the world is that a problem?
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post #12247 of 12250 Old Today, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
Erich, can you give me any information regarding the FL450? Is it similar to the BA750, and if not, how does it differ? With all else being equal, speaking strictly of sound quality, how would you compare the FL450 to the BA750 to the DNA360?
Tip,

The FL450 is an unusual driver. It uses about the largest neodymium magnet structure I've ever seen on anything beyond a woofer (keep your cards with magnetic stripes away from these things!). Performance-wise, its lower frequency range is about the same as the DNA360 or DNA350, around 900Hz or so. It's usable upper frequency is also about the same as those, around 18 to 20 kHz, give or take. The unusual part is that it's upper frequency range is much stronger, relatively to the others. Compression drivers like these typically drop off about 6dB/octave toward higher frequencies, starting at about 3kHz. The FL450 drops relatively little. I was sure that must be from getting more directive at VHF, but measurements didn't show that happening. So I have no idea why the FL450 acts differently on this. But it is nice for getting maximum real efficiency with constant-directivity waveguides -- usually the overall tweeter response has to be EQd down to the fallen VHF level. The FL450 also sounds different on a SEOS when swept. That might be because of the stronger high end (?) though that isn't what it seems to sound like.

The BA750 is usable lower in frequency, down to about 600Hz, depending on the waveguide. For higher crossover frequencies, there probably isn't much reason to go with BA750. VHF response is about the same as DNA360. Using BA750 usually requires special construction because it is so blasted heavy -- it looks positively silly on a SEOS10. It will probably break the neck off of a lot of horns, so some additional support from cabinet structures would be a good idea!

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post #12248 of 12250 Old Today, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Can we call a spade a spade here? How about we change this to:

"A community of speaker designers and builders devoted to bringing Erich the best DIY loudspeaker designs and technologies available, so that he may offer it to the masses and profit from other's concepts"

I am all for sharing. I have to admire you and DIYSG, you have managed to find a spot where you can dig into other's concepts and get those out to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to design such things, and, at incredible prices. and the best part, nobody even gets mad!!! The problem here is, we have moved past a few kits with OPEN SOURCE materials, and the generosity of a few great guys around here to do a couple designs. We are now in the proprietary driver, not selling the kits as separates anymore, openly entering other peoples threads and hawking their ideas territory. It makes me sick.

Turning a profit currently or not, you can't lie to me or anyone else around here and say you don't want to (or already are) make(ing) money at this venture. @Mike Lang is pretty clear: "No marketing is to be done outside of the classifieds section." IMO, a subforum would basically be like a huge throw-net for new sales for DIYSG. JBL doesn't get their own subforum, nor does JTR, Seaton, etc. They keep their product concepts and sales to their own dedicated forums, or a single thread here.

You are way off on almost every part of what you just said, which is a real bummer.

The subforum is going to be in the VENDOR AREA and I have to pay for it! JBL, JTR, Seaton can have one too.....and they would have to pay for it. I chose that route specifically so it would NOT clog up this forum. No one has ever started an "Official DIYSG" thread in the speaker area like the other companies you mentioned. The subforum isn't even easy to find....and I'm PAYING for the subforum. It was discussed a few pages back. Oh, and the subforum will cost more than my car payment each month.


Profiting from other people's concepts? Where did you get that from? Ask the speaker designers who starts many of the designs and gets things rolling. Who did I copy off of?


The kits have never.....ever been sold as separates. Nothing has changed with that. Years ago when some stand alone flat packs were started there was a donation button set up so people could build the design and then donate to the designer through Paypal. About 4 out of 100 did it. So I started adding in a very small amount to the kits for the designers. Some wanted it, some didn't. How is this bad?


Proprietary Drivers: People wanted a speaker with dual 8" woofers and an 8 ohm load. I asked Eminence if they could make some 16 ohm Beta-8's for us to use and then drew out the 88-Special, Fusion-8 MTM, tower and center and then asked Jeff Bagby if he would do the design. How is that bad? Forum members were trying to paint their 10" blue cones black and kept asking about black cones. So I again asked Eminence if they could make us some black coned models and they did! How is this a bad thing?


Making money: Kit pages have links to the 'About Us' section of the site that clearly explains how I price kits and what happens if there is any money left over after they are priced out. I have never ever paid myself any money from this. Not one penny. Any money that has ever been left over went right back into the "group Buy Fund" as I call it. Matter of fact I sold two nice trucks to fund the SEOS waveguides. Last Monday my dad even joked and said 'I bet you wish you had the extra plow truck now' (we had lots of snow). I still haven't been able to get that personal truck money out of the audio stuff to rebuy myself another truck!


Bummer of a post.
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post #12249 of 12250 Old Today, 04:11 PM
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And once again.....

I'M PAYING FOR THE SUBFORUM

And it will not even be in the audio area or anywhere near the DIY Speaker forum!!!



This was discussed pages back.

By the way, some people knew this was going to happen once I mentioned needing to hire more packaging help.
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post #12250 of 12250 Unread Today, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

How many other manufacturers or resellers would love to have their own forum on AVS?

It seems like DIYgroup keeps taking step after step towards becoming larger, bigger company but at the same time talking out of the other side of it's mouth saying it isn't so. Every step to use "special" driver with custom specs, different color woofer, CD that only DIY group carries, or whatever else is the differentiating factor just continues to reinforce the idea you have to source everything from Erich. But try to order a DNA360, or DNA150, A SEOS 15" waveguide individually and you get told to piss up a rope. Every time I look I see someone complaining about that. You can't buy a waveguide, or a CD, but every new DIY project that hits around here seems to have a coinciding "kit" available almost magically at DIY group. I can't be the only one that notices this.
You are sooooo off base here.

Look under 'FORUMS'.....all the way down at the bottom. See that thing called "Vendor Forum"? That's a PAID section. How many times do I need to tell you this isn't free?? You keep stirring things up but not reading. You have 27,000 posts but fail to not read a few pages prior to posting....so YOU have started all of this by making false comments.



And you have got to be kidding me on ordering parts!!! Comments like that just kill me. Especially from you.....because I sent you the ones you're using for your speakers!!! When did I ever tell you to 'piss up a rope'? Seriously, I sent you the parts you just said couldn't be ordered right? Read on to understand how sad your comment is.


Why is the SEOS-15 not available right now? I set up a preorder for that and the SEOS-10 to help cover the 10's of thousands of dollars needed to get the project done. I think maybe $2000 worth were preordered.....none from you if I recall. So to get the project done I had to sell my own personal truck to cover mold fees. After that I was not initially able to buy a huge number of them due to the cost. SO I DON'T HAVE MANY TO SELL RIGHT NOW!!! Should I sell all of the ones I do have to you and then sit here with the Fusion-15 and 88-Special kits/flat packs that could no longer be sold?

I had enough to last me about a year. It's been a year since the SEOS-15 was delivered here. I ordered more that are coming on the next shipping container that should be here in about 1.5 months. I can't get it here quicker. WHAT ELSE AM I SUPPOSE TO DO??? Please let me know.

Why is the DNA-360 not available right now? There's a minimum number I have to order on those (it's not just 100). I'm very low on them because they came on the same shipping container as the SEOS-15 and SEOS-10. Know why I don't have many right now? I couldn't order as many because I spent money on the waveguides and molds!!!! Do I sell all the compression drivers so that I can no longer sell half the kits and have 100 flat packs sitting around? WHAT ELSE SHOULD I DO? Please let me know.

Why is the DNA-150 not available right now? Same reason the 360 isn't. How can I sell something to you that I either don't have, or don't have much of? If I'm low on stock, why would I sell a driver to someone and then have all of the kits go out of stock and leave me sitting on everything that now can't be sold?



I ran low on a lot of stuff this year because a LOT of money went to cover the SEOS-15 and SEOS-10. Then their kits drained the stock of DNA-205's and DNA-360's. The Volt kits drained the stock on the DNA-105. What would you like me to do? Can you loan me $100k so I can buy more of the parts all at once?


This should make you happy: To keep from running out of parts I have put even more of my money into a shipping container that is suppose to ship in a couple weeks. Just like I've done for 2 years now. It has more SEOS waveguides, and compression driver parts.



Mfusick, Do you have any idea at all how much has to be ordered at one time and how much it costs? Any idea at all? Give me a guess at what you think it would cost to order a run of SEOS-10's and 15's, DNA-360's, 205's, 150's, and Anarchy woofers. Last year the drivers got ordered at the same time. What's your guess?

After that, add in flat packs, crossover parts, and woofers. Let me know what you come up with and if you'd like to help out on that purchase. Oh wait, you just wanted 3 SEOS-15's and 3 DNA-360's. Did you get them to last? Are you sure?


Oh, and I also helped with the Group buy from Poland and had another $3500 worth of horns ordered without the person actually paying me for them. So at this point I have about $12,000 worth of preordered horns that people decided to stiff me on.....for doing a nice deed. That's never happening again because I've finally learned my lesson, and believe it or not, your past post is what certainly helped.
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