Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 416 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12451 of 12475 Old Yesterday, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Forum member Likelinus hooked up the sweet DIY Sound Group banners to make things look more professional. I think they look great, but that just makes me work that much harder to get the subforum looking good!

Hopefully I get caught up on packaging by Friday so I can spend some time over the weekend getting more info posted.
No problem big guy, anytime you need something just ask! Let me know if you need any help with the site to change out the logo and such.

Forums are looking great and really coming together. Great job Erich.
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post #12452 of 12475 Old Yesterday, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
We should do a community kickstarter program for somthing like this. Build in like 10$ a unit extra and use all the funds to do another, and another etc...
I'm not sure I understand because you said you were going to buy a round yourself because you knew how things should be done. You thought I was hoarding drivers and waveguides and said lots of people are turned off by the fact that the CD's aren't always available. I mentioned the problem, but you actually said my explanation didn't hold water because the site's been like that for a long time.

One forum member suggested that you buy some and you said........
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'll take you up on this offer. Sure. Sounds great. Erich PM me the required info. I will do it. I'm guessing he won't though.
What happened since then? Was it learning that things might be harder than you think? Or that you have to order 200, 300, 500 at a time?


A Kick Starter with $10 added in on each one won't do what you think. 200 people order 200 DNA-360's. There's $2000 left in the pot afterwards.....but we have no more compression drivers.

How do the next 200 get ordered when there's only $2000 to do it? Another KickStarter? What about all those people that didn't get in on the first one? Do they have to wait 6-8 months? I'm betting you're going to get a lot of mad people asking why you aren't selling compression drivers on your site!
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post #12453 of 12475 Old Yesterday, 09:27 PM
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post #12454 of 12475 Old Today, 06:00 AM
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Yeah I actually did want to help. You still never gave me any info. Then posts like that ^. Makes me not want to help actually. I wonder why I even try.
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post #12455 of 12475 Old Today, 07:58 AM
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I think Erich's point is that he is acting in a similar fashion to a kickstarter campaign, with the added benefit that he is adding initial money so full payment from the DIYer is not required to place the order, storing everything, shipping, etc.

The problem that orders require a large initial cash payment, somewhere to be stored, secondary shipping to the end DIYer, and the huge lag between ordering and receiving, means that changing who orders the components doesn't change the end outcome that for large chunks of time various components will not be available.

I am not sure why converting to a Kickstarter campaign that still has to have someone to manage it is better than continuing with Erich performing this role, especially since it seems like the vast majority of DIYers have been very happy with Erich (and happy with everyone who have continued to help DIY Sound Group - speaker designer, etc.).

I guess the end question is what issue is trying to be solved:

A) If the issue is time to get a driver then a Kickstarter campaign doesn't help. The kickstarter campaign will take weeks to months to fill (to reach minimum order). Then it will take months to get the shipment. And then it will take weeks to make final shipments.

B) If the issue is instant inventory then that is a tough problem unless someone is willing to purchase components 6 months in advance hoping to get paid back. A Kickstarter like campaign would have to collect enough money to preorder 6 months or more in advance, so the person who paid for a $50 dollar driver would have to pay $150 (total guess) so that 3 drivers could be ordered to be able to allow the chance that someone (not even himself) might order another in 6 months. At some point his money would be given back to him once those other 2 drivers were purchased by someone else.


Perhaps a new "Rally thread" could be created to gauge interest in actually starting a Kickstarter campaign?

(as an aside, I am not personally interested in a kickstarter campaign, but this thread does not seem like the appropriate place to continue the discussion. I have no doubt Erich will provide those in the new thread with the necessary information if there is enough interest.)
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post #12456 of 12475 Old Today, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Yeah I actually did want to help. You still never gave me any info. Then posts like that ^. Makes me not want to help actually. I wonder why I even try.
C'mon man... You know I was just giving you a hard time. I don't even know that cat...

I just poke my head in, antagonize when I see drama or horrible decor, then duck out!

All in good fun. Didn't mean to ruffle any fur for real.
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post #12457 of 12475 Old Today, 08:21 AM
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Erich,
You need to update your signature line.
Tux we'll let you slide.
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post #12458 of 12475 Old Today, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
One forum member suggested that you buy some and you said........
First- I was 100% sincere in my offer to try to help. I didn’t know the specifics, and I previously offered and you said you would give me the info. YOU NEVER DID. Then the topic came back up and I asked some specifics, because again I did not know them, but I imagined there is minimum order quantity. I honestly didn’t see a big deal putting $3500 on my credit card for a batch of compression drivers. I was thinking I could possibly do a batch of something that moves fast, like 360’s or 150’s and try to help out. And again, I did not know the specifics. And once again you said you would get me the info and you did not.

So when you posted all those different models and minimum order quantities it was pretty obvious to me it’s going to take a little more than just me and one batch- so I made the kick starter suggestion. I honestly thought it was a good idea, it seemed like it was an easy way to fix a little of the problem of the cash flow to get some of these things people want. I made the suggestion with good intentions and sincerity and I didn’t expect you to take a personal bias against me or try to make me look bad; whatever the reason you felt you needed to do that it wasn’t necessary. It’s the responses like that, that keep me from wanting to help and wishing I never offered. It’s seriously not worth it. I’m not sure if that was your intention all along, or just an unwanted side effect ? But it’s probably important that I explain this to you so you at least understand.

What upsets me is you never gave me the info or an opportunity to even try to help, but then go off on a tirade to smear and attack me trying to spin things around and say I’m backing out or whatever you are suggesting. I didn’t see anyone else step up and make that offer either. If a few guys each did a model the problem goes away, and you could even take half the shipment at a later date for kits or whatever and spread it around to make the volume distribution make more sense. But instead of trying to be serious about it, you act like you did. It wasn’t needed.

I waited some time to cool off before I replied because I didn’t want this to go too far in a negative direction. My first reaction was to blast you back, pointing out your lies and the problems I see, but it’s not going to help anyone and lucky for you I don’t really care enough to worry what some of the people might think. The majority of those people are just using you and DIY group for their own self interests and will always support whatever is in their favor, but my worry about what they think of me because of your lies is not a big concern. This is just the internet. The other guys that I might actually meet in real life and be friends with due to common interests, well I am assuming my relationship with them will be predicated on more than just they read online.

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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
A Kick Starter with $10 added in on each one won't do what you think. 200 people order 200 DNA-360's. There's $2000 left in the pot afterwards.....but we have no more compression drivers.

How do the next 200 get ordered when there's only $2000 to do it? Another KickStarter? What about all those people that didn't get in on the first one? Do they have to wait 6-8 months?
What happened since then? Was it learning that things might be harder than you think? Or that you have to order 200, 300, 500 at a time?
As for the kickstarter- you comment also made no sense because you get the money back (the original money) as each unit sells. So you don’t just have $2000, if you added $20 to 100 units, you have all the money + $2000 more. A couple rounds and you solve the cash problem. Again, perhaps it was stupid for me to say but I thought it might be a good idea. I didn’t expect you to take the angle you did and come at me personally.

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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I'm betting you're going to get a lot of mad people asking why you aren't selling compression drivers on your site!

I think you should try to understand more what the complaints are regarding this. The problem is not that people expect you to automatically accommodate them, or they are angry when you can’t. No one expect you to put up your personal effort and money just for them. The problem is you don’t explain things very well and just blow them off, and the lack of communication and frustration of waiting gets to them. And it should. Poor Luke has been waiting 4 months for some compression drivers, if you couldn’t or didn’t want to sell him some that is cool, just man up and say it. It’s your right do run things and do things however you want to do them, but if you were just a little more clear about stuff it might help people, even if it means they go off in another direction. I could list 10 people that tried to buy CD’s in the last year, that ended up not getting them, but I will spare the laundry list of details. My comments on this area are not to call you out, or make you look bad. It’s just some advice on the awareness.

Asking if compression drivers are available outside the kits is asked continually, and you might feel like you answered the question but I think the majority of people don’t think so and that is why you keep getting that question over and over. Citing the dock issues, shipping, and all the semantics you cite is cool to explain your troubles to people- but honestly just a “yes when I get them, probably another month” would suffice or a “no because I have other plans for these at this time”. People can respect either one, and both are better than the beating around the bush on it or ignoring the questions. I counted 5 times it was asked recently just in this thread.

Your reply made me sad because I honestly wanted to help, and I was waiting on you to do it, but then you tried to play politics and spin it around like it’s me for whatever personal reason you felt that you needed or wanted to do that. I just fail to see how that’s going to help motivate me, or anyone else to ever want to try to help again. I was not intending to be nasty or insincere with my suggestion on the kickstarter program, and yes perhaps it is a bad idea , but I did not all expect that reaction, and my suggestion was not coming at the expense of myself not helping with the CD thing either. You assumed that for whatever reason, but reality is you never gave me the info or even asked for the help. I can only assume your intention was to make me not help, because you never intended or wanted to give me the info or have me help in the first place? That is really the only way I can make sense of it. I actually have a good friend that owns a package and ship company here in town with plenty of extra space and down time, who would be more than happy to handle all the shipping and logistics just for the business of the shipping, at normal retail shipping prices (FEDEX /USPS etc). His margin on the USPS flat rate boxes is $1, and it seems like a no brainer worth it for the easy of it.

It seems like the 360 or 150 is the easiest and most demanded models- getting a batch run seemed like a simple thing and still does. Wife would really scream if I loaded up on every model, but a few thousand is something I could do. If we needed more, perhaps someone else steps in 50/50. But again, you never gave me any info, and rather than asking for help seem intent on refusing it. So…
What am I supposed to think or make of all this? Should I really want to help? And how was a kickstarter program such a bad idea exactly? No one has to give, but those that do, can buy from the stock at cost rather than markup. It honestly seemed like a good idea to me.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."

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post #12459 of 12475 Old Today, 08:57 AM
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C'mon man... You know I was just giving you a hard time. I don't even know that cat...

I just poke my head in, antagonize when I see drama or horrible decor, then duck out!

All in good fun. Didn't mean to ruffle any fur for real.
I wasn't talking to you Austin. I was actually talking to Erich, you just ninja jumped in and inserted your MEME.
Truth be told I am a total sucker for internet MEME's and laugh every time, even when the jokes on me.

Keep it coming... you have my permission I have a tough skin. Sorry you mistook what I was saying.

My comments were that why would I want to help when I get blasted like that.

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post #12460 of 12475 Old Today, 09:31 AM
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I actually did the math last night too about the bulk orders. In reality, I can't justify risking my money just to front 300 CDs. If Erich was across the street from me then it would be a different story. Not to mention I already spent my play budget on a land purchase this month.

I can however setup a gofundme page or similar if folks want to make donations. I'll give it all to Erich or return it, if it doesn't work, but that seems shady considering no one knows me. Would you give your money to a guy with the same name as the "Master Manipulator" from Watergate?

I don't have a horse in this race really. I'm not in a position to buy/build any speakers, nor do I have a place to use them currently. I surely don't want DIYSG to further my agenda. I hang around here to learn and enjoy the builds. Nothing more.
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post #12461 of 12475 Old Today, 09:31 AM
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Mfusick,
No disrespect, I know you are an active member and always contribute; I for one appreciate what you bring to the community. Pretty sure you an Erich have a edgy relationship. Just a couple points.
1. I'm sure Erich has several peeps offering to help at some capacity and I don't believe the way to offer is through a forum thread. Pretty sure nothing will ever evolve with you and Erich.
2. Personally I don't think it's appropriate the way Erich handles his communication with you but you obviously you have struck a nerve.
3. Your post are a bit long winded at times, redundant, and defending the same points.
4. Last but most important, I hate seeing these threads bogged down with a bunch of negative crap from any member.

Now carry on my DIY friends.
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post #12462 of 12475 Old Today, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Yeah I actually did want to help. You still never gave me any info. Then posts like that ^. Makes me not want to help actually. I wonder why I even try.
Maybe you should go back and reread your ranting posts because it sounds like you forgot all the put downs you were throwing around. Remember how I was doing 'Bad Business 101'. "What do we need Erich for anyway'.

I clearly explained the issues with keeping things in stock, you said you would help by buying a round of compression drivers and knew how to do all of it. I'm letting you know that you can make good on that if you want. You assumed 50 drivers could be ordered and here in a few weeks. You sarcastically stated that you'd order but I likely wouldn't let you. But now that you realize it's much harder than you initially thought, you don't want to do it.

If everything I've been saying has now become more clear to you then maybe you should apologize for all those comments you made and admit you were wrong.

That's why I made the previous post. Sounds like I'm in a no win situation here.

Either way, I'm done trying to defend myself against what you were saying a few weeks ago. On with the neat stuff.
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post #12463 of 12475 Old Today, 09:40 AM
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Do we need to bring in a referee!!!
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post #12464 of 12475 Old Today, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Maybe you should go back and reread your ranting posts because it sounds like you forgot all the put downs you were throwing around. Remember how I was doing 'Bad Business 101'. "What do we need Erich for anyway'.

You accused me of getting proprietary drivers so people had to buy from me (untrue), and that I didn't keep the things you wanted up on the site so you could buy them. You said you know of at least 20 people that were mad and turned off by the way the products on the site are handled. You also said you know how to run it all.

I clearly explained the issues, you said you would help by buying a round of compression drivers. I'm letting you know that you can make good on that if you want.

If everything I've been saying has now become more clear to you then maybe you should apologize and admit you were wrong. Also that maybe it IS harder than you thought for one person to keep $100k worth of CDs in stock at all times along with everything else.

Again, I think you forgot some of the comments you made about all of this 3 weeks ago, so my post above was my long awaited rebuttal......and you get mad about that too? That my friend is a no win situation for me.

The problem is that you thought 50 drivers could be ordered here in a few weeks. You sarcastically stated that you'd order but I likely wouldn't let you. Well, I'm letting you if you want them.

This isn't as easy as you think....or everyone would be doing. That's the first rule in Good Business 101 class.
I have no problem appologizing for any offense I might have caused you. I am sorry.

I also believe I was perhaps the only one to actively and already have done that previously. I didn't even ask you to correct or apologize for the lies you said about me did I? You totally tried to portray things not at all how they actually are in reality for your own personal end game, but I let the semantics go because I didn't care.

I really meant well, and my offer to help was sincere. I also thought we cleared the air previously, but I guess I was wrong about that. For the record you chose this path again, not I.

Doing a round of compression drivers isn't prohibitive to me. You seem to judge me on that, but I never remember placing the same judgement on you. There is also a couple people around here that might also help, but again your methods leave something to be desired there.

And what exactly are you waiting for from me again? You said you would give me the information and I got nothing from you except a nasty reply to an unrelated suggestion. My biggest issue with this is you are saying I won't help- but I have no idea where you got that idea. You keep going at that angle and it's just wrong, you don't want me to help, or won't let me. That's cool too. I am a big boy and can handle that, just like I could handle being told I can't buy a CD. Same problem though, if that is they case just stand up and say it and put this to bed. No sense in pretending anything else. I'll move on. Or give me the info and I'll try to do a run. The DNA360 or 150 seems to make the most sense to me, but I am open to suggestion. You can even take half the run if you want for the kits or something- that might make sense too.

-

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post #12465 of 12475 Old Today, 09:59 AM
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Do we need to bring in a referee!!!
No. And I read your above comment just now, and it was well said. Thanks for them.

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post #12466 of 12475 Old Today, 10:56 AM
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Doing a round of compression drivers isn't prohibitive to me. You seem to judge me on that, but I never remember placing the same judgement on you. There is also a couple people around here that might also help, but again your methods leave something to be desired there.
I can't tell if you're serious or just trolling here. Maybe you've posted so many posts that you really did forget all the judgemental comments you made earlier in the month. You have an interesting way of of forgetting and turning things around. Kudos for the confusion.

Oh well, it is what it is.

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I have no problem appologizing for any offense I might have caused you. I am sorry.
Then we're fine.


By the way, if you think my post was 'nasty', you should also admit to Popalock that your skin wasn't as thick as you told him it was.

I'm moving on now.

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post #12467 of 12475 Old Today, 11:21 AM
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I can't tell if you're serious or just trolling here. Maybe you've posted so many posts that you really did forget all the judgemental comments you made earlier in the month. You have an interesting way of of forgetting and turning things around. Kudos for the confusion.

Oh well, it is what it is.

Then we're fine.

By the way, if you think my post was 'nasty', you should also admit to Popalock that your skin wasn't as thick as you told him it was.
I'm moving on now.
I PM-ed Austin and he and I are cool already. No worries there. My skin is plenty thick, I feel like I've taken your heat pretty well actually, better than I should have all things considered. For the last time I was serious, I wasn't trolling. I feel like I said that a couple times now.

I imagined a case where it would be a few thousand bucks on the charge card till I paid it off, and a few months to get it all back originally. Things are bit worse than I had hoped but it's not impossible. I was always serious.

But looking at your post which I never had before the math get's a bit harder than I thought, which is why I made the kickstarter idea.

I set stuff up like this for a living, it's not a big deal to me. I think you under-estimate me or something.
If you don't want the help that's cool. I'm probably crazy to even offer in the first place, just you don't need to make it seem like you do. The hostility is one direction (toward me), I didn't make my suggestion expecting all this, or intending for it at all.
I already thought we were fine before this, but I was wrong. I told you privately just PM me for the personal beef stuff, no need hash it out here. I still mean that. If you are serious about needing the help, email or PM me and I'll see what I can do. If you don't want it, that's cool too. But say stuff like "kudos to the confusion" and spin it all back on me because I can't possibly explain this all any clearer to you. If you made an initial mistake of judgement it should have been corrected by now. I'll PM you again, and open the line of communication on the personal crap because there is no need for this to keep happening in public.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #12468 of 12475 Old Today, 12:11 PM
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These long winded 2 page rants just completely ruin the thread and run it completely off-topic.
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post #12469 of 12475 Unread Today, 01:21 PM
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I think you need to read and edit your posts better Mfusick. I usually read the first few sentences and it already starts to repeat itself, so I just skip the remaining 5 paragraphs. Learn to carve those down a lot.


Erich may not feel comfortable saying the info on a forum. Chances are you also need an "in" before these factories will even talk to you. The DNA-150 might not even be something Erich wants to spread around or they could end up in knock offs.
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post #12470 of 12475 Unread Today, 01:44 PM
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Noted on the edit thing. On the second thing, he should have said that then. He didn't. I could understand that all too, but he intentionally made it seem like I was the problem and called me out for no reason. I only literally said one sentence (and legit thought it was a decent idea), and then all this happened. It did not seem that way to me, but I could understand what you say is true. It goes back to my first suggestion long ago though, just stand up and say so if that is the case. Boom. End of story.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitmap42 View Post
I guess the end question is what issue is trying to be solved:
A) If the issue is time to get a driver then a Kickstarter campaign doesn't help...
B) If the issue is instant inventory then that is a tough problem unless someone is willing to purchase components 6 months in advance hoping to get paid back.
That's a great question of what's the issue(s) to be solved. It seems obvious at first, and the solutions seem obvious, until more digging is done.

Unknown or "spikey" demand is a challenge for businesses. e.g. electric companies and ISPs keep on hand excess capacity to handle spikes in demand, and that costs a lot. For the other extreme: Dell implemented Toyota's practice of just-in-time manufacturing, but that is very challenging, requiring very tight integration with suppliers.

One issue mentioned is that when there was scarce resources (low inventory of drivers or crossover parts), they were earmarked towards kits and not for single purchase.
If that's a serious problem, we have the mentioned group-buy/pre-order/Kickstarter, etc. and distribute with a different allocation priorities.
Or if there were enough demand Erich could buy enough in the future to set aside more for individual sale.

The difficulty is when the demand for individual parts is low/slow but they can only be purchased in bulk. I wonder what Parts-Express' threshold for demand and inventory turnover is. Are they willing to buy 500 of something and sell them at a rate of 50 a year? 200 a year?
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post #12472 of 12475 Unread Today, 03:14 PM
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Can't we all just get along......

.

.

duckin' for cover!

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #12473 of 12475 Unread Today, 04:24 PM
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Just so you guys know, I'm not complaining in my posts because I really enjoy what I'm doing. I'm just giving info on how things go because some people wonder how items can be out of stock for so long without realizing the number of parts that need to be ordered or how long it takes to get them.


Either way, things will be improving a lot once all the other stuff arrives. I've also started hoarding crossover parts so we don't run out of those as quickly. It just takes time. Keep in mind that the plastic SEOS-12 waveguide has only been here for about 2.75 years. We've all done quite a bit in a fairly short amount of time.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I've also started hoarding crossover parts so we don't run out of those as quickly.
Someday the police will show up after a plethora of complaints and pleas from neighbors about the smell emanating from their once fine neighbor, Mr. H.. When they get to his house they will see signs of the horror that awaits. There'll be wire snippets and bits of surrounds on his front lawn and capacitors party hanging out of windows. When they finally enter the house they'll find ginormous amounts of crossover parts, waveguides, compression drivers and woofers of all sorts, some of which have clearly been ignored for decades. They'll see the sad state of empty speaker cabinets long needing proper love and care and in desperate need of a drivers. It'll take months and months to clear the utter chaos, but eventually everything will be rockin.

Intervention and therapy in your future my friend.

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post #12475 of 12475 Unread Today, 07:06 PM
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People need to remember how long people have waiter for speakers from companies.

Any experienced buyer (like people building speakers ha) should have zero problem with waiting. There are companies in this hobby that run full time businesses making lots of money.
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