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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here...

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#1 ·

DOPE from HOPE Toe In.pdf 159k .pdf file

 

 

 

Setup of WG Speakers.pdf 206k .pdf file

 

 

 

Introducing...

logo design contributed by avs member omegaslast. thanks omega!


This thread has morphed from a rallying effort to encourage Parts Express to carry a waveguide into a full blown research and development project coordinated by Erich H to create a new one. On top of that, Erich H and contributors developed a couple new compression drivers, flat pack enclosures, and so much more. While I will provide some updates from time to time, the latest can always be seen by subscribing to this thread or visiting Erich's website:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/

and the Official Project List in the forum.


The primary product that has emerged is the SEOS waveguide (Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid describes the profile of the waveguide's curvature). The design objective was to provide good horizontal coverage for near constant sound anywhere in the room (controlled directivity for the audio wonks) and vertical coverage that would minimize floor and ceiling bounce, while minimizing the problems associated with traditional 'horns' (internal reflections and such).

 

If you don't know why controlled directivity waveguides are useful, don't worry, attached is a pdf that explains it. 

The design objective has been met. This waveguide provides the high dynamics and SPL capability of a compression driver without any of the "horn sound" that plagues other models.




Off axis performance is spectacular:



Several more pics here:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/media/c...astic3_1_3.jpg
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/media/c...astic2_1_3.jpg
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/media/c...astic4_1_3.jpg


It is available in several options. The first and the premium option is high gloss fiberglass. The second is a poured concrete type product that costs about half as much. The third is the budget option, an injected molded plastic horn. All three will perform similarly.


The waveguide is available in 6" 8" 10" 12" 15" and 18", though not all models are available in all materials. Throat diameter is 1".


Here is some eye candy of the fiberglass models:








The fiberglass waveguides are available in most any custom color.



12" SEOS measured. DE250 driver, 2m distance, about 5' off the ground.

Horizontal patterns (measured in 7.5 degree steps, 0 to 90 degree range, curves unsmoothed):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1369780




 

Member "java" is an early adopter and did a great job with his build.

 



Ground up build thread can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build

Member Brad Horstkotte's interpretation, SEOS 12/360 over a JBL 2226J woofer:



 

Build thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1422024/seos-12-dna-360-jbl-2226-j-build

 

Erich has some flat packs coming together.  Here is an example of how simple they are to assemble:

 



More bwaslo progress...SEOS12 and Deltalite 2512 in a test box. Crossover was designed using measurements from the "lesser clone" driver. Here is an overlay of the 1m unsmoothed frequency response with that design using both the "lesser clone" and the DE250:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21851410



The clone (and to a lesser extent, the "better clone") has a funny notch at 8.5kHz, but goes higher in frequency; DE250 doesn't have that notch. (Not visible in this design): The "lesser clone" doesn't go quite as low as the DE250 or the "better clone", but still very close.


Here are 90ish dB distortion sweeps. First the DE250:



Then the "Lesser Clone":


Not much to get excited about in either, both pretty clean. BTW, as a sweep, this is quite loud.




And another pic of the waveguide (plastic prototypes on the left and right, fiberglass in the center). The plastic SEOS 12" is being set up for injection molding, so the per-unit cost will be VERY affordable.






AVS member bwaslo has been running AE TD15M/SEOS 15/B&C DE250 and has amazing results in an active crossover setup. As of this update, he is working on a passive crossover network.




A 'prototype' build of his can be seen here: http://libinst.com/junk/TD15M%20SEOS15/photo2.jpg




AVS member AudioJosh has some pics of a build here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21711808




Here is a corner friendly concept: http://www.audiokinesis.com/images/p..._ak_prisma.jpg




As for one of the compression drivers in development, it is called the BA because it is so large, aka big ass, relative to the DE250.




Frequency response of the BA driver:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21670315






There is also a DE250 clone in the works. Frequency response:

Black is DE250 on 15" SEOS, Red is clone driver on 15" SEOS.






Frequency response:






Also, a very low cost compression driver is in the works. Some early pics:






BWaslo's results of a first SEOS12 design. As built from a PCD design (using OmniMic measurements). The woofer is the (very soon to be announced) Dayton Audio "Designers' Series" 10 inch woofer. The cabinet is an old Advent Legacy II box.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3110






Malcolm, A SEOS12 Center channel (another one by bwaslo):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21836431
The schematic for the Malcolm (v1) crossover
Malcolm Crossover Parts List from Parts Express








Full baffle options are coming soon. Prototype shown here:








Erich update:


Besides the 1 piece SEOS-10 baffle, most of the designs right now will revolve around the SEOS-12 and SEOS-15. But they're almost certainly going to be using the DE250 or other similar models. Even if someone comes up with a super high end model, it will likely be with a much more expensive woofer, but still use either the SEOS-12 or 15 and the nicer compression driver that showed a slightly better top end than the DE250.


Keep in mind, that every single option will be good. No one here wants to mess around with anything cheesy, it's just a waste of time right now. So when I say "low, mid, high", I'm talking about pricing, not necessarily sound quality.


It's also going to be hard to break things down into categories because all will be available as DIY kits, but some might eventually turn into completed speakers. But if they do, the boxes I'm thinking about will not be cheap. So you could DIY even the high end stuff, but the really high end will be considered completed boxes, but still the same "design". Hope I explained my plans okay.


Just to get things out in the open:


SEOS-8: There will be at least 2 designs. No 1 piece baffle or complete speaker in the works yet. You have to order the fiberglass or the poured version right now.


SEOS-10: There will be at least 3 designs. Low, mid, high costs. All can use the poured or fiberglass waveguide that you can order right now. Some will also fit the 1 piece baffle. You could use the 1 piece baffle for the cheaper model, it would be up to the person building it. Eventually (if an absolutely great design shows up) I *might* try to get an entire speaker made up for the 10.


SEOS-12: I'm guessing at least 5 designs minimum. With all the different woofer and compression driver combos, it could be even more. Obviously the plastic waveguide, the poured one, or the fiberglass model. I think this and the SEOS-10 will be the main focus. Because of the plastic option, some designs will be very well priced that anyone should be able to afford. Probably a few mid level designs, and maybe 2 higher end designs. If one of those higher end designs is incredible, then maybe a full speaker down the road.


SEOS-15: I know of at least 2 designs. But they're probably won't be a cheaper version here. You can order the poured model or the fiberglass model. I don't think there will be a 1 piece baffle. I doubt a completed speaker like the other sizes would be available.....in the cabinet design I'd like to see. It would just be quite expensive.


SEOS-18: I know at least 2 designs here, possibly 3. Same info as the SEOS-15.





*********************

It can't really be put into words how much work and how much money Erich has invested in this project. He financed the whole thing and invested countless hours coordinating with people around the globe. So when you build a SEOS project, at least post your build and/or drop Erich a thank you note. Also, spread the DIYSoundGroup word around...


As with all projects, this one is not the work of one person.


SEOS is a trademark. The name and logo are copyright (c) 2011-2012. All rights reserved. For commercial use, contact Erich H.

This project is dedicated to the memory of our friend who went by the callsign Zilch.

More data, less wank.


Z's avatar is itself a dedication to the memory of James B. Lansing.






The original post:


As many of you know, Zilch & Co. have created some great crossovers for a horn loaded main that uses the QSC 152i horn. It appears that QSC has cut us off from direct buys of this horn, but Parts Express, as a QSC distributor, may be able to supply our fellow forum members if we can rally enough interest.


Folks, I am asking that you shoot a quick email to Parts Express and let them know how much we appreciate their support of our community and that we would appreciate it if they could continue to provide the QSC 152i horn for DIY builds.


Each horn sale from them typically results in an additional sale of a woofer, a compression driver, and many crossover components. QSC gets the benefit of proving their good products among a very vociferous group of folks (lots of free online marketing) P.E. has been a long time friend around here so don't go negative however this one turns out.


The email addresses are here:
http://www.parts-express.com/contact.cfm


Thanks.




 
 

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#10,760 ·
How come external crossovers are not more popular ? Seems like easy access for tweaking.

It would be a cool way to do upgrades too. Imagine building a Fusion 12, but wire up each driver directly to the speaker binding posts on back of cab and the. Just buying the external external crossover and hooking it up. Then later adding a second 12 mid bass module as an add on to do dual 12". Or expanding to be a three way with second 12" and mids. An external crossover would allow you to just stack that second upgrade on top of the first and swap out crossovers. Some minor attention into the box design so the distances from the upgrade drivers to original might be needed up front though.
 
#10,764 ·
Making boxes is my weak point. Thats why I think the flat pack option is such a great idea.

Soldering a crossover is easy for me now because I've been doing soldering on and off for years, but designing a crossover? That's a whole new Rocket Science to me other than using a calculator for basic components. Measuring and testing, and then knowing what to do to get the ideal results is where it's at and my hat comes off to those guys here who can do that.

Gary
 
#10,765 ·
Making boxes is my weak point. Thats why I think the flat pack option is such a great idea.

Soldering a crossover is easy for me now because I've been doing soldering on and off for years, but designing a crossover? That's a whole new Rocket Science to me other than using a calculator for basic components. Measuring and testing, and then knowing what to do to get the ideal results is where it's at and my hat comes off to those guys here who can do that.

Gary
 
#10,767 ·
Soldiering is like an art at times. My background is in electronics, but I am a bit out of practice, and HATE mistakes that force me to take something apart and reassemble.

However, all this talk of making the crossover externally is intriguing. It would be a very unique look to build it externally into a block of wood painted black and then place a plexy glass case around it once you knew it was done correctly.
 
#10,775 ·
#10,777 ·
Why build a crossover when you can just go fully active! Lol, I wish I could, I just don't know how to set it up.
Ugh, still waiting to hear back on selling all my speakers so I can pick up 2 Tux-1099s. It's traumatizing, I just want to hear the magic words "Yes, I'll buy all of your speakers, and EVEN the subwoofer too."

I noticed the Karma-10s are taken down. That's a shame, now that I understand EricH's idea behind them, I've recommended them to countless numbers of people across other forums. I hope he keeps the Karma line, great for the other forums I go to where people aren't necessarily enthusiasts, but still should be able to experience the SEOS design and they generally want to hop in as cheap as possible. Better this than the BOSE speakers that people were recommending...
 
#10,781 · (Edited)
#10,783 ·
Hey Erich, Parts-Express has some buyouts on 15" woofs, for $50, and $65.

Do you think Cheap Thrills II's might be in the works?

I've seen those, but they don't have enough to justify a design. Under 100 pieces for each one.

If one of those woofers is good, people will start buying and they wouldn't last very long.
 
#10,782 ·
The new Fusion-15 hasn't been posted yet. There were some very slight tweaks that the designer wanted to make before it was 100% done.

I got pictures of the new 8" dual woofer models last weekend, but still haven't had time to get them posted. Packing up the 1099's kept me busy.

Teaser photos.....







There is another one, but I'll wait to post that photo. You might be able to figure it out though. :D
 

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#10,786 ·
The old Fusion 15" was 2.5 cubic ft. I hope the new one is of similar size?
 
#10,788 ·
That's sort of the way I was leaning on the Alphas. But possibly not using expensive $500 woofers in the bottom. I was debating which way it should go a few pages back, but after lots of thinking, 3 way designs that can be converted to center channels fairly easy seemed like the best idea for now.
 
#10,794 ·
We might have an interesting opportunity for some high end, high output speakers but I'm curious if there's enough demand to move forward.

When the SEOS prototypes were done a couple years ago, I sent out a decent number of emails to people/companies that I thought could design some really nice speakers. Some people replied back letting me know that they were too busy at the time, but would consider it later.


About a month or so ago I was in contact with one of those companies and they agreed to work on a nice design. This would be an extremely high output 3 way speaker. Could be used for left, right, and center channels. They could easily be used full range and handle over 1000 watts each. But they'd be quite efficient, so even low powered amps would be fine. It would use custom 12" monster woofers, B&C midranges, etc.

While talking about the design, there was some discussion about it being a 100% completed speaker which would be pretty expensive. When I added up the parts, it was over $600, but under $1000 for components per speaker (I don't want to give exact amounts right now). I don't know if the completed speaker would happen or not, but if it did, do you think there should possibly be a limited run of kits first so that the DIY guys can get them for much cheaper than a completed speaker price?

We've talked about wanting a higher end, more expensive SEOS speaker. But when it comes down to it, I'm just not sure how much demand there really is and I'm a little hesitant to move forward with it. I don't know how all of this would work out yet, or if a set number of kits could even be made available first, but figured I should mention it here. Obviously I can go into more details later or start a new thread to go through the design ideas.
 
#10,797 ·
Completed Speaker would definitely be harder to do and more expensive which I think would push more people away. If you wanted to do a completed speaker we'd have to get much more than just the people on this forum to purchase and that'd mean a lot of "advertising". Not something I feel is the strong point of some people on here =D.
Limited Run of the first kits would be your best bet just to test the waters. If you could get just ONE speaker completed and tested though (even if it's not the exact speaker but just close enough), then give us an idea of performance/cost, we could get a bunch of people to put money down first. If not enough people put money down first, you cancel it. But if you get enough, you move forward.

I think you'd be better off finishing up the Maximus-15 build and linking the parts/crossover though and just offering a baffle. Probably much easier, less time consuming, and less of an upfront cost as you'd only have to get some baffles for those kits.
 
#10,795 ·
Would need to know size . why not have a target number of kits to make it worthwhile. Say its 10 to 15. If people put 1/2 down and you reach your goal then move forward. If only 3-4 people put cash down then just refund them and cancel. I wouldn't move forward without at least 10 people putting money down. You and me both know people say there going to buy, email, etc and then change there mind.
 
#10,796 ·
I can say for myself that I think this is the right move to make the most of the SEOS, but I can tell you unequivocally that I won't be buying any - neither kit nor finished speaker. I'm sure there is some market for it, it's just not me. I share your concern that the market is small, but if this particular designer/builder sees it as marketable, I'm very interested in seeing what they do.
 
#10,798 ·
We could obviously talk about the speaker size if there seemed to be enough interest. It would be a bit bigger than the 1099.

I've already seen the custom woofer samples and they are mean. No problem for the speaker doing full range, or tuned higher for serious midbass, or sealed to roll off around 80hz. Speaker sensitivity would be around 100db. But they could be used sealed in smaller boxes too. My thoughts were ported left and right speakers, sealed center that could still do 80hz.
 
#10,802 ·
I'm interested in a high output, amazing sound speaker for about $500 each LCR. Size is not an issue at all for me. Bigger is fine. Something that is a step up from a FUSION 12 with a clearer midrange, less distortion and more output for a couple hundred bucks more. Keep me in mind, even if I am a guinea pig for a design or it's just a custom one off project. Size does not matter at all, but I do care about value. I'll spend $$ but I want a lot for the dollars I spend.
 
#10,801 · (Edited)
It certainly wouldn't be $1000, I just put that range there to keep it very general, but it would fall closer in the middle.

If you need something more than the 1099, it would certainly cost over $500 for parts because the 1099 uses buyout midwoofers and good but low priced woofers and still added up close to $400. An extra $100 wouldn't get much more with 2 midwoofer upgrades and 2 woofers to upgrade.
 
#10,803 ·
YUP! I get all that. I'd ideally like to find that good value blend, $600 each is fine but I'd want it to be a great value so perhaps buyout woofers or something nice to make the value really extra special. It's not really the cost as much as the value to me. I just don't see myself spending $1000+ for each speaker even if I could. But I'd be tempted to spend $1000 if the value was super high and the speakers themselves were over the top excellent. In other words I need a good reason to justify the spending :)
 
#10,804 · (Edited)
They wouldn't be $1000.

I doubt the buy out woofer stuff will be done any more because it's a huge amount of resources to put into something that isn't going to be around very long. The only reason the 1099 is still around is because someone had to purchase hundreds of the midwoofers. ;)

I hope others don't feel the same way or I've seriously devalued this entire project with the hard work of the others. :eek:
 
#10,805 ·
Well I think value is important to everyone. Like I said it's not about being ultra low price, I said I'd spend money. I'm willing to spend double or triple what a standard kit costs now ($300) so I don't feel like I'm being a cheapskate. As I explained it's about what you get for the money that's important to me. So if the kit is super awesome but premium priced that's ok. But a FUSION 12 kit gets you 95% of the way there for 1/3rd the cost I'd have a tough time with it. It's all relative. I hate to sound like I'm a cheap bastard (even though I am :p ) and I fully appreciate what you and the designer do. You make great points, ideally you want a design that's going to be available for a while so it's not wasted effort. I agree with that. But I thought you said this supplier might be making a kit or drivers, so I don't see the problem. If it's not a sustainable project I agree with you that it's not worth the effort. I also agree with you that DIY isn't about being low cost or ultra cheap. But I can't really agree if you are trying to say it need to be expensive, or it shouldn't maximize value. I always assumed the poor value combinations were already axed in the initial design phase of kicking ideas around for a kit, or what drivers to use. I don't see a lot of point in making a kit with an expensive driver just because it's expensive for the sake of status symbol; I think there needs to be a real benefit that's obvious and justifies the cost. If that is well understood they'll sell well. Even at $600 each. If there isn't a benefit easily realized to justify a kit that is double the cost of a FUSION12 I don't see a lot of point in even trying the design in the first place. I think we agree with each other. Sometimes my words don't come across properly... sorry about that.
 
#10,808 ·
I talked about besting the 1099 with Ryan and he said it wouldn't really be done for another 100-200. Need to spend double and even then the improvement would be minor. That's why I'm happy to get 1099. For me not worth spending hundreds to get 3-5% better. I'm not a midbass monster so I don't need my mains to be pounding 12-15" drivers. I know some love the crunching.

To beat the 212 would be tough when the CD for that is like 600$. Never heard the 212 but to me the 1099 is neck and neck with the jtr 228. Not sure how the 212 is better then the 228 since I've never heard it.
 
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