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post #2671 of 10785 Old 02-14-2012, 08:34 PM
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Yeh, I knew you bought a bunch of the JBL stuff last year, but these are slightly different than the ones you bought. Maybe they're older, I'm not sure.
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post #2672 of 10785 Old 02-14-2012, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

... The downside for someone like Carl is that they are huge and fairly ugly. I have a screenwall so I could care less.

Actually, I seem to be attracted to gear that others describe as ugly. And to my wife I describe the ugliest (my favorites) as 'industrial art'. She usually shrugs and humors me. I have no problem with the looks of the JBL Screen Array products. And they sound good too!

What I don't like are boring rectangular boxes with grill cloth. Pfft! Everybody has those ...



Erich, I am already using a pair of 2509A brackets to hold up those IWATAs. They work well! What I was looking for when I spoke to you was a pair of JBL 2506 brackets to hold up those 2360A horns that you sold me. I found one on EBay. Now I need another.
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post #2673 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 07:56 AM
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Carl, I assumed you wouldn't want those behemoths since they are exposed, but if your wife is cool with it, great.

I just need to get some in hand and measure them. It seems that I should be able to manage the perf screen compensation built into them.

You definitely need to get some 1.5" large format drivers. IMO, they are a great compromise between the old school 2" and the small format 1" drivers. It gives you directivity control where you want it most while still playing pretty well up high.

If you really want to get wild, you could do a 3-way with the Iwata-300+2446 crossing to a SEOS-12 with DE250 around 1200hz. That should give you a nice directivity match along with decent null separation. You could cross the 2446 to whatever bass setup you want around 450-500hz. Obviously this is not a cheap solution, but certainly an interesting one. It would be similar to using a cone driver midhorn.
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post #2674 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 08:11 AM
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Uh gentlemen, when are you guys going to post some designs with the current models you have!

I'm surprised no one has posted any yet, I think I shipped out 7-8 pair from the "rush order" months ago. Snap to it!!

With the plastic 12's coming soon, I hope we get some designs worked out by the time they get here. I might have a few of the 12" models here to send out if anyone knows someone that can help out.

It would stink having 1000 waveguides with no design!
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post #2675 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 08:19 AM
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(drooling) I would make room for any of these if I could afford it.
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post #2676 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Uh gentlemen, when are you guys going to post some designs with the current models you have!

I'm surprised no one has posted any yet, I think I shipped out 7-8 pair from the "rush order" months ago. Snap to it!!

With the plastic 12's coming soon, I hope we get some designs worked out by the time they get here. I might have a few of the 12" models here to send out if anyone knows someone that can help out.

It would stink having 1000 waveguides with no design!

I actually have some wood cut to assemble boxes for them, but the only woofer I have that will work is the 2226J. I need my TD15Ms. I've thought about grabbing some 15TBX100s in the meantime. I'd really prefer to do a design, especially if it is passive, for a driver combination that will be frequently used. I think the TD15M will be popular, but the 15TBX100 should be too.
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post #2677 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Uh gentlemen, when are you guys going to post some designs with the current models you have!

I'm surprised no one has posted any yet, I think I shipped out 7-8 pair from the "rush order" months ago. Snap to it!!

With the plastic 12's coming soon, I hope we get some designs worked out by the time they get here. I might have a few of the 12" models here to send out if anyone knows someone that can help out.

It would stink having 1000 waveguides with no design!

Erich, I have a 12" inexpensive Eminence woofer set, but it's February and all I have is an unheated garage to build in. Get them into a box with SEOS12 and I'll get you a crossover design. Othewise, will have to wait for spring.

I have TD15M in a box right now with SEOS15, but am running active. I could do a passive xover for it (which I don't need), but the TD15M may as well be unobtanium for short term and for new designs so it would be academic except for those who have a preorder in place, and only whenever that happens.
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post #2678 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'd really prefer to do a design, especially if it is passive, for a driver combination that will be frequently used. I think the TD15M will be popular, but the 15TBX100 should be too.

Although the TD15M might be a popular choice, what are the chances anyone's going to see one any time soon? Also what are the chances the supply will be there when demand is? I personally would like to see a passive design based on the JBL 2226H, being that it is a proven, available commodity.

Just my .02 cents.
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post #2679 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Uh gentlemen, when are you guys going to post some designs with the current models you have!

I'm surprised no one has posted any yet, I think I shipped out 7-8 pair from the "rush order" months ago. Snap to it!!

With the plastic 12's coming soon, I hope we get some designs worked out by the time they get here. I might have a few of the 12" models here to send out if anyone knows someone that can help out.

It would stink having 1000 waveguides with no design!

I have three different designs (1 each for SEOS 18, 15 and 12s) all in different states of completion. None of them use AE loudspeakers because they are so hard to get. Instead I am using Eminence, Beyma and RCF drivers that are common catalog items. I promise that I will be ready to publish something interesting soon.
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post #2680 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:17 AM
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Ha, I'm just yanking your chains guys. One thing that I can't do right now is design crossovers. I've got no problem admitting it and hopefully later in the year I'll have the time to start learning.....and pestering the heck out of BWaslo with stupid questions.

I'd love to see the SEOS-12 with the Deltalite or the Delta Pro 12A. And there should be a very nice design coming for the SEOS-10 eventually.


I wonder where I can find a company that actually assembles crossovers? There's a guy on the AVS board that can help build some, but we're not really sure how long each one will take and the volume that will be needed. He's up for the job though and his work is very good.
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post #2681 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post


I have TD15M in a box right now with SEOS15, but am running active. I could do a passive xover for it (which I don't need), but the TD15M may as well be unobtanium for short term and for new designs so it would be academic except for those who have a preorder in place, and only whenever that happens.


Please do a passive XO! Would be nice to see some pics and drawings of your cabinets as well! When John eventually start sending out drivers there will be quite a lot of people with AE TD15M I believe! I could very well start building cabinets right now, I know my self to well and knows it will take a while to complete them anyway!
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post #2682 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If you really want to get wild, you could do a 3-way with the Iwata-300+2446 crossing to a SEOS-12 with DE250 around 1200hz. That should give you a nice directivity match along with decent null separation. You could cross the 2446 to whatever bass setup you want around 450-500hz. Obviously this is not a cheap solution, but certainly an interesting one. It would be similar to using a cone driver midhorn.

This is the direction I am heading. I don't have the SEOS12's yet, but I did order the Iwata 300z.

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post #2683 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by madlim View Post

Please do a passive XO! Would be nice to see some pics and drawings of your cabinets as well! When John eventually start sending out drivers there will be quite a lot of people with AE TD15M I believe! I could very well start building cabinets right now, I know my self to well and knows it will take a while to complete them anyway!

I will have a SEOS15/DE250/TD15M passive design when I get my TD15Ms. I will probably do a few different xover designs ranging in price and probably a few different woofers too like the 2226J, 2226H (if someone wants to loan me one down the road) and 15TBX100.

Filtor1, that TOTL JBL ScreenArray is 9ft tall. I stood next to one. It is pretty damn funny. I'd love to find a commercial cinema that had a set and listen to a movie there.
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post #2684 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

This is the direction I am heading. I don't have the SEOS12's yet, but I did order the Iwata 300z.

That will be very interesting. Do keep us updated when you get it rolling. Have you run your Iwata in a 2-way like Penn and Carl? It is certainly still doable. What 2" throat are you going to use on it?
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post #2685 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 10:11 AM
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I just ordered mine, haven't gotten them yet. I have a pair of Radian 950Bs to use with them. Have you seen Gianluca's speakers? He uses JMLC 1000s for the upper treble.

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post #2686 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 10:14 AM
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Here is how I am using my IWATAs. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1380362

They work well!
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post #2687 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 10:45 AM
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Yeah I saw that thread a while back. Do your brackets work with 2" CDs? Erich thought they were for 1.5" CDs.

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post #2688 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

Yeah I saw that thread a while back. Do your brackets work with 2" CDs? Erich thought they were for 1.5" CDs.

Yea, I'm using JBL 2446 2 inch CDs. Looking at the JBL spec that bracket appears to work with both 1.5 and 2 inch CDs.
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post #2689 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 11:39 AM
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Guys, let me know what size you think is best in the 20"+ range and what size driver they should go with.

Would the SEOS-22 be good with a 1.5" driver and the project is done?

Or should there be the SEOS-20 with a 1.5" throat and a SEOS-22 for a 2" throat?

It might be best to narrow it down to one model, but we'll see how it goes.


My main goal right now is what we have on the table.


One final warning: the pallet is pretty much filled and they are loading it up. If anyone wants some of the smaller sized stuff, there's a chance they can still fit it on the pallet. But you can't wait much longer.
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post #2690 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I will have a SEOS15/DE250/TD15M passive design when I get my TD15Ms. I will probably do a few different xover designs ranging in price and probably a few different woofers too like the 2226J, 2226H (if someone wants to loan me one down the road) and 15TBX100.

That is great news! Looking forward to see some more of your design!
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post #2691 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 11:51 AM
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Erich,

I think a SEOS 20 that takes 1.5 inch drivers is the next logical step. I invite others to offer up their thoughts.
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post #2692 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Guys, let me know what size you think is best in the 20"+ range and what size driver they should go with.

Would the SEOS-22 be good with a 1.5" driver and the project is done?

Or should there be the SEOS-20 with a 1.5" throat and a SEOS-22 for a 2" throat?

It might be best to narrow it down to one model, but we'll see how it goes.


My main goal right now is what we have on the table.


One final warning: the pallet is pretty much filled and they are loading it up. If anyone wants some of the smaller sized stuff, there's a chance they can still fit it on the pallet. But you can't wait much longer.

I'd probably say a SEOS-24 with a 1.5" throat would be ideal. IMO, the 2" throat stuff is better served by the Iwata and JMLC style horns.

These would work well with the following drivers:

JBL 2452, 2451, 2447, 2431, 2432, 2435
BMS 4595 coax

I'm not sure what the exit angle's are for these drivers.
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post #2693 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

One final warning: the pallet is pretty much filled and they are loading it up. If anyone wants some of the smaller sized stuff, there's a chance they can still fit it on the pallet. But you can't wait much longer.

Is this for figerglas, "concrete", or plastic, or all of the above? Count me in for 3x SEOS-15 plastic when they're available. Not sure if the "last call" applies to these though, since they're not orderable on the site?
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post #2694 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Erich,

I think a SEOS 20 that takes 1.5 inch drivers is the next logical step. I invite others to offer up their thoughts.
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I'd be OK with a SEOS-20, but the 22 or 24 would take better advantage of these CDs ability to play down to 600-700hz. JBL likes to use these 3-4" diaphragms down to around 700hz. Maybe a SEOS-20 would get there, but not by much. The 20 is already pretty big, why not go a little bigger and reach 600hz comfortably?

If the cost for the Autotech guys is outrageous, I'll probably just try the ScreenArray horns or ditch the 2452's for a 3-way setup like AudioJosh or a conical midhorn. It would be tough to pay $400-500ea for three horns when I can get the giant JBLs for $100ea. I'd also be quite happy to buy poured versions if that is possible. I don't care about looks.
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post #2695 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 12:26 PM
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Erich,

In my opinion 1.4 is the way to go. Many more available and in use around the world and more choices of makers. More options is always a good thing. 1.4 has the speed of the 1 inch and the low frequency extension of the 2inch.

22 or 24 would be great with low frequency to at least 650hz... with more vertical dispersion. 50-70 degree vertical dispersion to go with that beautiful horizontal dispersion is a must for my studio monitor and home monitor design.

I always assume that anyone spending as much time and effort on a sound system as people do here... would spend the time and effort to maximize their room acoustics. Great sound depends on a great sound system AND a great room. More vertical dispersion would help with stereo imaging and soundstage as well as a bigger sweet spot for group listening in a home or studio.

Congratulations on all of your effort. You have hit a home run. Now be like Babe Ruth and hit another one.
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post #2696 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Is this for figerglas, "concrete", or plastic, or all of the above? Count me in for 3x SEOS-15 plastic when they're available. Not sure if the "last call" applies to these though, since they're not orderable on the site?

You might be waiting a little while for the plastic SEOS-15. That would be more than the 12" that should be here soon. I honestly think more people will opt for the SEOS-12 and smaller after they hear how crazy loud these can actually get.

I would think that the poured concrete will be available for all models on the next pallet after this one.



Guys, on for the larger SEOS, could they taper the throat enough so that they could easily use the same mold for the 1.4" and 1.5" like they do with the tractirx or JMLC's? Or would you be too worried about a slightly longer throat for the 1.4" version?
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post #2697 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 07:19 PM
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I am interested in 3 SEOS 12 Plastic to start and will need 7 to finish, I would be willing to work with my buddy to do the boxes for testing and getting a crosssover design, he is great at that stuff. Madisound I think will build them for you if you have a design and may even help with designs if you want
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post #2698 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breau View Post

Erich,

In my opinion 1.4 is the way to go. Many more available and in use around the world and more choices of makers. More options is always a good thing. 1.4 has the speed of the 1 inch and the low frequency extension of the 2inch.

22 or 24 would be great with low frequency to at least 650hz... with more vertical dispersion. 50-70 degree vertical dispersion to go with that beautiful horizontal dispersion is a must for my studio monitor and home monitor design.

I always assume that anyone spending as much time and effort on a sound system as people do here... would spend the time and effort to maximize their room acoustics. Great sound depends on a great sound system AND a great room. More vertical dispersion would help with stereo imaging and soundstage as well as a bigger sweet spot for group listening in a home or studio.

Congratulations on all of your effort. You have hit a home run. Now be like Babe Ruth and hit another one.

I agree that the 1.4/1.5" route is a good route for 2-ways with some of the modern materials used. The best materials are coated Titanium and Beryllium. Beryllium is absurdly expensive. JBL won't sell their Be drivers individually and TAD TD-4003 is $3k. You can buy aftermarket Be phragms for JBL CDs but they are around $400-500ea.

That leaves the treated Ti drivers and I only know of two available. The aquaplas'd 4" 2452 JBLs and the 18Sound NSD1480N and NSD1460N. The JBL's retail for about $1200 but can be found on ebay for less and the diaphragms are not that expensive. The NSD1480N is $500 and I don't have a price for the 1460N. That isn't bad for a medium format driver with a coated diaphragm.

The JBL's advantage is that it is a 4" VC which means it should play lower. The 18Sound's advantage is price, availability and potentially a more advanced coating (just a guess based on their paper).

Of course there are cheaper 1.4/1.5" CDs that are either Ti or Al, but IMO you are probably better off going with a poly or treated Ti 1" throat SEOS-18 if you want a low xover point. Or go with a three-way using a mid horn.

Presently, the best 1.4" horn option is the 18Sound XT1464. It is a well-regarded horn but on the small side at just 15" wide thus it only holds pattern down to ~1200hz. IMO, there would definitely be a place for a larger SEOS built around the NSD1480N. Maybe a SEOS-24. In a home or studio setting, the NSD1480N should play easily down to 600-700hz.

I guess what I'm saying is that after thinking about it for a bit, a 1.4" throat would be better than a 1.5" throat. I really like my JBL 2452H-SLs, but I think the market would be bigger if built specifically for the NSD1480N instead. I know the 18sound driver will be easier to obtain in Europe and is available in the US.

A $500 CD combined with a $300 horn (wild guess on price) is a far cry from the 1" versions, but should be a pretty amazing performer for those with more space and money.

Breau, as far as directivity, the SEOS models all measure around a nominal 60deg vertical and 90deg horizontal. I agree this is optimal for most situations. By my math, a SEOS-24 should hold pattern in both the vertical and horizontal while providing a nice wide lobe for very smooth directivity and off-axis response.
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post #2699 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 09:07 PM
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I am interested in 3 SEOS 12 Plastic to start and will need 7 to finish, I would be willing to work with my buddy to do the boxes for testing and getting a crosssover design, he is great at that stuff. Madisound I think will build them for you if you have a design and may even help with designs if you want

I've still got 2 of the fiberglass models if Pete wants to start working on them. But I should also have 4 of the plastic models in a few days. Maybe I could send 2 of those instead and 2 of the new compression drivers.
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post #2700 of 10785 Old 02-15-2012, 11:51 PM
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1.4 throat makes the most sense for the 24" SEOS - greatest availability of existing CD's.
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