Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - AVS Forum

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DIY Speakers and Subs

LTD02's Avatar LTD02
11:54 PM Liked: 1202
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11-17-2010 | Posts: 16,882
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DOPE from HOPE Toe In.pdf 159k .pdf file

 

 

 

Setup of WG Speakers.pdf 206k .pdf file

 

 

 

Introducing...

logo design contributed by avs member omegaslast. thanks omega!

This thread has morphed from a rallying effort to encourage Parts Express to carry a waveguide into a full blown research and development project coordinated by Erich H to create a new one. On top of that, Erich H and contributors developed a couple new compression drivers, flat pack enclosures, and so much more. While I will provide some updates from time to time, the latest can always be seen by subscribing to this thread or visiting Erich's website:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/
and the Official Project List in the forum.

The primary product that has emerged is the SEOS waveguide (Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid describes the profile of the waveguide's curvature). The design objective was to provide good horizontal coverage for near constant sound anywhere in the room (controlled directivity for the audio wonks) and vertical coverage that would minimize floor and ceiling bounce, while minimizing the problems associated with traditional 'horns' (internal reflections and such).

 

If you don't know why controlled directivity waveguides are useful, don't worry, attached is a pdf that explains it. 


The design objective has been met. This waveguide provides the high dynamics and SPL capability of a compression driver without any of the "horn sound" that plagues other models.



Off axis performance is spectacular:


Several more pics here:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/media/c...astic3_1_3.jpg
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/media/c...astic2_1_3.jpg
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/media/c...astic4_1_3.jpg

It is available in several options. The first and the premium option is high gloss fiberglass. The second is a poured concrete type product that costs about half as much. The third is the budget option, an injected molded plastic horn. All three will perform similarly.

The waveguide is available in 6" 8" 10" 12" 15" and 18", though not all models are available in all materials. Throat diameter is 1".

Here is some eye candy of the fiberglass models:







The fiberglass waveguides are available in most any custom color.


12" SEOS measured. DE250 driver, 2m distance, about 5' off the ground.
Horizontal patterns (measured in 7.5 degree steps, 0 to 90 degree range, curves unsmoothed):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1369780



 

Member "java" is an early adopter and did a great job with his build.
 

Ground up build thread can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build


Member Brad Horstkotte's interpretation, SEOS 12/360 over a JBL 2226J woofer:

700

 

Build thread here:http://www.avsforum.com/t/1422024/seos-12-dna-360-jbl-2226-j-build

 

Erich has some flat packs coming together.  Here is an example of how simple they are to assemble:

 


More bwaslo progress...SEOS12 and Deltalite 2512 in a test box. Crossover was designed using measurements from the "lesser clone" driver. Here is an overlay of the 1m unsmoothed frequency response with that design using both the "lesser clone" and the DE250:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21851410


The clone (and to a lesser extent, the "better clone") has a funny notch at 8.5kHz, but goes higher in frequency; DE250 doesn't have that notch. (Not visible in this design): The "lesser clone" doesn't go quite as low as the DE250 or the "better clone", but still very close.

Here are 90ish dB distortion sweeps. First the DE250:


Then the "Lesser Clone":

Not much to get excited about in either, both pretty clean. BTW, as a sweep, this is quite loud.



And another pic of the waveguide (plastic prototypes on the left and right, fiberglass in the center). The plastic SEOS 12" is being set up for injection molding, so the per-unit cost will be VERY affordable.





AVS member bwaslo has been running AE TD15M/SEOS 15/B&C DE250 and has amazing results in an active crossover setup. As of this update, he is working on a passive crossover network.



A 'prototype' build of his can be seen here: http://libinst.com/junk/TD15M%20SEOS15/photo2.jpg



AVS member AudioJosh has some pics of a build here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21711808



Here is a corner friendly concept: http://www.audiokinesis.com/images/p..._ak_prisma.jpg



As for one of the compression drivers in development, it is called the BA because it is so large, aka big ass, relative to the DE250.



Frequency response of the BA driver:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21670315





There is also a DE250 clone in the works. Frequency response:
Black is DE250 on 15" SEOS, Red is clone driver on 15" SEOS.





Frequency response:





Also, a very low cost compression driver is in the works. Some early pics:





BWaslo's results of a first SEOS12 design. As built from a PCD design (using OmniMic measurements). The woofer is the (very soon to be announced) Dayton Audio "Designers' Series" 10 inch woofer. The cabinet is an old Advent Legacy II box.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3110





Malcolm, A SEOS12 Center channel (another one by bwaslo):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21836431
The schematic for the Malcolm (v1) crossover
Malcolm Crossover Parts List from Parts Express







Full baffle options are coming soon. Prototype shown here:







Erich update:

Besides the 1 piece SEOS-10 baffle, most of the designs right now will revolve around the SEOS-12 and SEOS-15. But they're almost certainly going to be using the DE250 or other similar models. Even if someone comes up with a super high end model, it will likely be with a much more expensive woofer, but still use either the SEOS-12 or 15 and the nicer compression driver that showed a slightly better top end than the DE250.

Keep in mind, that every single option will be good. No one here wants to mess around with anything cheesy, it's just a waste of time right now. So when I say "low, mid, high", I'm talking about pricing, not necessarily sound quality.

It's also going to be hard to break things down into categories because all will be available as DIY kits, but some might eventually turn into completed speakers. But if they do, the boxes I'm thinking about will not be cheap. So you could DIY even the high end stuff, but the really high end will be considered completed boxes, but still the same "design". Hope I explained my plans okay.

Just to get things out in the open:

SEOS-8: There will be at least 2 designs. No 1 piece baffle or complete speaker in the works yet. You have to order the fiberglass or the poured version right now.

SEOS-10: There will be at least 3 designs. Low, mid, high costs. All can use the poured or fiberglass waveguide that you can order right now. Some will also fit the 1 piece baffle. You could use the 1 piece baffle for the cheaper model, it would be up to the person building it. Eventually (if an absolutely great design shows up) I *might* try to get an entire speaker made up for the 10.

SEOS-12: I'm guessing at least 5 designs minimum. With all the different woofer and compression driver combos, it could be even more. Obviously the plastic waveguide, the poured one, or the fiberglass model. I think this and the SEOS-10 will be the main focus. Because of the plastic option, some designs will be very well priced that anyone should be able to afford. Probably a few mid level designs, and maybe 2 higher end designs. If one of those higher end designs is incredible, then maybe a full speaker down the road.

SEOS-15: I know of at least 2 designs. But they're probably won't be a cheaper version here. You can order the poured model or the fiberglass model. I don't think there will be a 1 piece baffle. I doubt a completed speaker like the other sizes would be available.....in the cabinet design I'd like to see. It would just be quite expensive.

SEOS-18: I know at least 2 designs here, possibly 3. Same info as the SEOS-15.





*********************

It can't really be put into words how much work and how much money Erich has invested in this project. He financed the whole thing and invested countless hours coordinating with people around the globe. So when you build a SEOS project, at least post your build and/or drop Erich a thank you note. Also, spread the DIYSoundGroup word around...

As with all projects, this one is not the work of one person.

SEOS is a trademark. The name and logo are copyright (c) 2011-2012. All rights reserved. For commercial use, contact Erich H.

This project is dedicated to the memory of our friend who went by the callsign Zilch.

More data, less wank.

Z's avatar is itself a dedication to the memory of James B. Lansing.





The original post:

As many of you know, Zilch & Co. have created some great crossovers for a horn loaded main that uses the QSC 152i horn. It appears that QSC has cut us off from direct buys of this horn, but Parts Express, as a QSC distributor, may be able to supply our fellow forum members if we can rally enough interest.

Folks, I am asking that you shoot a quick email to Parts Express and let them know how much we appreciate their support of our community and that we would appreciate it if they could continue to provide the QSC 152i horn for DIY builds.

Each horn sale from them typically results in an additional sale of a woofer, a compression driver, and many crossover components. QSC gets the benefit of proving their good products among a very vociferous group of folks (lots of free online marketing) P.E. has been a long time friend around here so don't go negative however this one turns out.

The email addresses are here:
http://www.parts-express.com/contact.cfm

Thanks.
LL
LL
LL
LL

 

Attached: Setup of WG Speakers.pdf (205.5 KB)  DOPE from HOPE Toe In.pdf (158.9 KB) 
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
07:18 AM Liked: 754
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11-18-2010 | Posts: 5,627
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I'm going to try to make a beefier duplicate this weekend. If it goes well, I can make quite a few for anyone that needs them. I'm hoping to make them a bit thicker as well.

A couple months ago I made a quick baffle as a trial. It's not the waveguide you're talking about, but you get the idea. Obviously I'd make the QSC units black.
LL
LL
PassingInterest's Avatar PassingInterest
10:26 AM Liked: 83
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Done. Thanks for the suggestion.
noah katz's Avatar noah katz
11:58 AM Liked: 189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm going to try to make a beefier duplicate this weekend. If it goes well, I can make quite a few for anyone that needs them. I'm hoping to make them a bit thicker as well.

A couple months ago I made a quick baffle as a trial. It's not the waveguide you're talking about, but you get the idea. Obviously I'd make the QSC units black.

Nice!

What WG profile is that?

Are you saying you can make 1 piece baffles w/the QSC WG shape built in?
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
12:44 PM Liked: 754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Nice!

What WG profile is that?

Are you saying you can make 1 piece baffles w/the QSC WG shape built in?

The one I posted is a JBL baffle. My goal is to make the QSC waveguide built into a 1 piece baffle. I've ordered some equipment that will hopefully let me do that using wood as well, but we'll see how hard it actually is and the time involved.
stgdz's Avatar stgdz
02:15 PM Liked: 14
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11-18-2010 | Posts: 2,188
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Done e-mailing,

Was going to build a set of e-wave deluxes for my parents. Wonder what I am going to do now. Also LTD I would add in the title, QSC parts department shut down.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
05:34 PM Liked: 1202
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holy crap erich...that's awesome. can you share some of the details of how you created those baffles?
coctostan's Avatar coctostan
09:55 PM Liked: 129
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Erich, if you are going to replicate the QSC you might as well make a few improvements. I'd suggest extending the profile a bit and notching the bottom to facilitate a smaller C-T-C spacing. Holding pattern control to 900hz would be great. Possible?
steve71's Avatar steve71
08:12 AM Liked: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
holy crap erich...that's awesome. can you share some of the details of how you created those baffles?
Yes, inquiring minds want to know...
Starkiller4299's Avatar Starkiller4299
08:38 AM Liked: 12
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I'm guessing some CNC milling was involved--a mill with a decent Z axis depth would make it pretty straightforward. In other words, I'm jealous and want one .
LBDiver's Avatar LBDiver
07:25 PM Liked: 10
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Looks like a wax casting from a mold? I wonder if PE gets enough e-mails they'll just knock it off, like the Pyle WG they have. Anybody know if the QSC is patented/patentable?

I'm surprised QSC doesn't just punch them out and charge $80/pair if you don't have a serial#
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
08:22 PM Liked: 1202
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499 views...hopefully at least 5-10% of you shot a quick note to p.e.

thanks for those who did. i don't have a horse in this race, but the qsc horn was part of one of the best diy main builds that i've seen.
craigsub's Avatar craigsub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

499 views...hopefully at least 5-10% of you shot a quick note to p.e.

thanks for those who did. i don't have a horse in this race, but the qsc horn was part of one of the best diy main builds that i've seen.

John - We are currently buying over 100 amps per month from Dayton ... Drop me a PM with some specifics, and I will talk to our guy at PE to see what we can do about doing a buy on "X" amount of the QSC 152i's.

I did a search on QSC's site and came up with nothing, but perhaps they don't advertise individual speaker components as being available.
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
08:15 AM Liked: 754
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I guess if PE starts carrying the wave guide, then I probably shouldn't bother trying to make a copy. It might be best for me to go straight for the integrated baffle? Any ideas, or does anyone know the chances of PE actually stocking the part? I don't mind making up quite a few, but it wouldn't make much sense unless PE decided not to carry the part.


Oh, the photo I posted above was my wax trial run for a JBL baffle.
mjg100's Avatar mjg100
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Nm
craigsub's Avatar craigsub
09:05 AM Liked: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I guess if PE starts carrying the wave guide, then I probably shouldn't bother trying to make a copy. It might be best for me to go straight for the integrated baffle? Any ideas, or does anyone know the chances of PE actually stocking the part? I don't mind making up quite a few, but it wouldn't make much sense unless PE decided not to carry the part.


Oh, the photo I posted above was my wax trial run for a JBL baffle.

I have no idea if they are even available, but when I am placing an order for another 100 amps, they will usually cooperate in finding out if the QSC's are still available, and what the order amount needs to be.

They can usually tell about unusual parts pretty quickly just be running a search.

You do nice work ! That JBL baffle looks awesome !
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
09:20 AM Liked: 754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I have no idea if they are even available, but when I am placing an order for another 100 amps, they will usually cooperate in finding out if the QSC's are still available, and what the order amount needs to be.

They can usually tell about unusual parts pretty quickly just be running a search.

You do nice work ! That JBL baffle looks awesome !


Then I'll just wait until you hear something. If they don't carry the part, then I'll get with Zilch and see if he thinks the QSC could be modified to be even better and we'll go from there.

If you hear anything, let us know.
craigsub's Avatar craigsub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Then I'll just wait until you hear something. If they don't carry the part, then I'll get with Zilch and see if he thinks the QSC could be modified to be even better and we'll go from there.

If you hear anything, let us know.

I will post their answer by Tuesday, and will also have them check out this thread. Either way, it's better than waiting for someone at PE to actually read and respond to the emails.
ZilchLab's Avatar ZilchLab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I did a search on QSC's site and came up with nothing, but perhaps they don't advertise individual speaker components as being available.

It was used in one of their now discontinued HPR series speakers, the 152i, originally stocked in their parts department and linked from the product page. It's still on their parts list, but availability is now restricted. In response to an inquiry early on regarding whether they were willing to supply parts to DIYers, a QSC representative posted, paraphrasing, "Yes, so long as nobody purchases in quantities to build product for resale." That post is in Chuky's thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post17354864

Penn sent some to Brandon (Augerpro) to measure, the results were quite good, and Brandon built and posted his "No Quarters" design in this forum. I built several passive EconoWave designs using it in the "Flex Your PCD Mettle" thread on PE's Tech Talk forum early this year, and a flood of orders apparently ensued, some enthusiasts purchasing five or more at a time for DIY home theater builds.

QSC had apparent difficulty keeping sufficient quantities in stock, with lead times occasionally stretching to 90 days. Consistent with their commitment here, however, they continued supplying the waveguides as a component part up until very recently. When the HPR series was superseded with newer QSC product designs, they apparently decided to limit availability to only registered owners of QSC product.

That's the history according to Zilch, and there are several excellent builds by DIYers documented in this and other forums. As I stated above, QSC's decision seems perfectly rational to me given the demand; they are not in the component distribution business like Parts Express is, and PE, already supplying several lines of horns and waveguides to this community, including their own Dayton brand, would logically comprise a better "fit."
robseyes's Avatar robseyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post


John - We are currently buying over 100 amps per month from Dayton ... Drop me a PM with some specifics, and I will talk to our guy at PE to see what we can do about doing a buy on "X" amount of the QSC 152i's.

I did a search on QSC's site and came up with nothing, but perhaps they don't advertise individual speaker components as being available.

That would sure be cool. Thanks for your generosity!
craigsub's Avatar craigsub
11:29 AM Liked: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

It was used in one of their now discontinued HPR series speakers, the 152i, originally stocked in their parts department and linked from the product page. It's still on their parts list, but availability is now restricted. In response to an inquiry early on regarding whether they were willing to supply these to DIYers, a QSC representative posted, "Yes, so long as nobody purchases in quantities to build product for resale." That post is in Chuky's thread.

Penn sent some to Brandon (Augerpro) to measure, the results were quite good, and Brandon built and posted his "No Quarters" design in this forum. I built several passive EconoWave designs using it in the "Flex Your PCD Mettle" thread on PE's Tech Talk forum early this year, and a flood of orders apparently ensued, some enthusiasts purchasing five or more at a time for DIY home theater builds.

QSC had apparent difficulty keeping sufficient quantities in stock, with lead times occasionally stretching to 90 days. Consistent with their commitment here, however, they continued supplying the waveguides as a component part up until very recently. When the HPR series was superseded with newer QSC product designs, they apparently decided to limit availability to only registered owners of QSC product.

That's the history according to Zilch, and there are several excellent builds by DIYers documented in this and other forums. As I stated above, QSC's decision seems perfectly rational to me given the demand; they are not in the component distribution business like Parts Express is, and PE, already supplying several lines of horns and waveguides to this community, including their own Dayton brand, would logically comprise a better "fit."

We are looking at some of the Dayton Waveguides for a larger speaker than the SHO-10 for next year.

If the DIY guys here want to get a group buy on a specific waveguide, let me know. We could order them all into our warehouse and ship them to those who want them, no problem.
ZilchLab's Avatar ZilchLab
11:43 AM Liked: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

We are looking at some of the Dayton Waveguides for a larger speaker than the SHO-10 for next year.

It might be a good idea to send me a pair of SHO-10 for ZilchLab analysis....
stgdz's Avatar stgdz
12:10 PM Liked: 14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

It might be a good idea to send me a pair of SHO-10 for ZilchLab analysis....

I'd like to see that
A9X-308's Avatar A9X-308
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Well, I'm in for a quad of the 152 if they ever become available again.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
06:45 PM Liked: 1202
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craig, thanks for offering to use your purchasing power with p.e. in order to help out folks around here.
zora's Avatar zora
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Well, I'm in for a quad of the 152 if they ever become available again.

I'd be in was well!

Jim
dykz34's Avatar dykz34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Well, I'm in for a quad of the 152 if they ever become available again.

Me too!
penngray's Avatar penngray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Then I'll just wait until you hear something. If they don't carry the part, then I'll get with Zilch and see if he thinks the QSC could be modified to be even better and we'll go from there.

If you hear anything, let us know.


Eric, do you have the QSC? I think you still should build a baffle no matter what happens. The only modification I think someone was cutting out a bottom curve on the waveguide so that the woofer / CD CTC is closer.

A one part baffle makes everything look professional and clean.
Erich H's Avatar Erich H
09:14 AM Liked: 754
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Yeh, I've got 2 of the QSC's. One thing I noticed on both of mine was that the inside throat isn't 100% smooth. I know they're probably all like that. It's because of the way they molded the bracing for the compression driver. I mean it's not rough or anything, but you can feel some very slight humps in the plastic.

I'm going to do the entire baffles, but I'm leaning towards making them completely out of wood first. Just waiting on some parts for a CNC type setup. Hoping to be going on this just after Thanksgiving.
DS-21's Avatar DS-21
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Agreed with Penn. Casting a baffle with a built-in WG is a good start to a lowest-possible-diffraction speaker. No seams, screw-heads, etc.

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