TC Sounds LMS 5400 18" Availability or JL Audio F113? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know what is up with TC Sounds production/availability of the LMS 5400 Ultra 18" driver?... Parts Express has been out for 5 months now and there is no arrival date....

My room is 23x24 with a ceiling that vaults to 13ft in the middle. 5.1 are Paradigm Studio 40 fronts, CC690 center, ADP590 surrounds. I have a Def tech Supercube I - good extension, but no visceral impact or punch. I don't want to build a huge box, that's why I won't consider Maelstrom, RL-p18.

I am planning to build a 3.5 cu.ft. sealed project I have a Behringer DCX-2496 processor and a EP2500 amp that are just sitting there waiting. How will such a project compare with a JL Audio F113?... Do you recommend passive radiators?... I am wondering if it's worth waiting another 5 months or more to build the LMS 18 project or abandon it and buy a F113 for my room?

Thanks Guys!
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post #2 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 12:50 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, the LMS 5400 drivers are going to be available in January, 2,011. The F113 is an excellent sub but not quite a LMS. The LMS will go lower, have more SPL, less distortion, more linear and better SQ. With your amp, I would build a PR box since that's not a lot of watts for the LMS and the PR box is more efficient down low. In sealed mode, in a small box, I would give the LMS around 4,000watts to make the most of it. Anyways, if you wait until it's back in stock, it would be worth it.
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post #3 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 12:51 PM
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THe F113 can not compete with the LMS5400 for low frequency performance but to get that you might need more power then what the EP2500 offers.

Im not sure what the delay is with the LMS5400, maybe Kyle can post and answer why??

Is it worth it to wait 5 months??

How about buying a Mal-x 21" now and enjoy it??

EDIT: Spanish beat me too it by 1 min....I still think you should check out the Mal-x, if you do not like it you can always sell it and get the LMS later.

The F113 is just not in the same league if you want Performance for movies.

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post #4 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 01:12 PM
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a good backup plan would be to use two av15h drives from ae speakers. they are quite similar in nature to the lms ultra and would work well in your side box. put one on the front and one on the back...so called "dual opposed" configuration. they are available in 8 ohm, so you can parallel wire them for a net 4 ohm load. good luck.

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post #5 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you so much guys! It's great to hear that the recommendations are unanimous about the LMS 5400 18in driver, and I wouldn't mind waiting a few more months. In the meantime I could design the enclosure...

Questions:

1. If passive radiators give more low bass extension by increasing efficiency with the same power, where's the trade off?... I am trying to think about it intuitively. Do passive radiators alter the system Q to the point where a decreased level of critical damping produces bass that's less accurate, less tight, with increased ringing?... I ask this because my Def Tech Supercube I has 2 PR, with a 10in driver, and the bass is not tight, overextended and loose (ringing).

2. If more power is needed than EP2500, what's a good value based alternative amp?... How are the QSC 4050 or 5050 amps?

3. The 2x15 AE AV15H seems like a solid contender too LTD02. What volume did you have in mind for dual-opposed drivers? Can they be 2 forward facing drivers instead?

Too bad manufacturers don't use this driver in their subs... Maybe if they did, they would be charging over $7000 - Zoinks! I've been away for a while, but I am happy to be here again. I enjoy the knowledge shared by so many here, like Ricci, Penngray, LTD02, Spanish68.
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post #6 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 03:31 PM
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88man, you have a large room, with probably not too much gain down low, that's why I would go with a PR design. I've tried both a sealed and PR sub and to me they sounded the same, with the advantage down low for the PR sub. It worked good for me because my room is even bigger than yours, had little bass gain down low and only had a one sub option. I did a LMS 5400 with PR's, in a 7cf box tuned to 16hz. If you tune it low (14hz-17hz), you'll get the low bass for movies and great SQ. That's why I think the EP2500 amp could be enough for a PR box with a LMS 5400 (although it could take even more power).

Dual sealed opposed is another good idea and those AE 15H's do perform very well, specially in the mid-bass. If you get the 8ohm version and do dual's, the EP2500 should be enough as it would provide some 1,000watts to each sub in 4ohm (bridged). Dual opposed would likely give you less cabinet vibration than two forward facing drivers, although forward facing drivers can work too, just use strong bracing.
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post #7 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 05:15 PM
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There are some good reasons the F113 costs a lot of money. For its size it really is a remarkable sub.

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post #8 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 05:52 PM
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I have a QSC 5050 and it's a freaking monster of an amp. I run 2 mal-x's off of it and it doesn't even get warm lol. It will easily blow through a lms ultra if your not careful with the volume knob

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #9 of 164 Old 11-25-2010, 05:54 PM
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"3. The 2x15 AE AV15H seems like a solid contender too LTD02. What volume did you have in mind for dual-opposed drivers? Can they be 2 forward facing drivers instead?"

the one that you listed 3.5 cubic feet. you lose 2 db or so to the ultra below 30hz, but you get higher sensitivity on the top end and two cost about 1/2 the price. they are not "el cheapos", they are solid performers. yes, the 2 can be forward facing, just make the box good and heavy so that the drivers won't be wasting energy moving your cabinet and will use all energy moving air.

passive radiators are quite similar to ported designs, just smaller because no port volume is required. they don't provide more extension, they provide more efficiency around tuning at the tradeoff of extension below their tuning point. no magic in any design.

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post #10 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post

Too bad manufacturers don't use this driver in their subs... Maybe if they did, they would be charging over $7000 -

Some do. Not about the charging $7000 though.

Nathan Funk
Funk Audio
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post #11 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 10:54 AM
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^^^^

Nathan from Funky Waves can build the sub for you and he may even have the LMS 5400 in stock. Ask him about the TC 5100 Pro as well since that is also a great driver.

The last commercial sub I had was the F113 and it is the best commercial sub I have ever owned. My first DIY sub I ever built using a 15" TC driver easily beat the F113 for movies, just not as good for music but it wasn't a LMS. The F113 is an excellent sub but to get the SPL and impact for movies you need to use at least 2.

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post #12 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 11:27 AM
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"There are some good reasons the F113 costs a lot of money."

there was a tour of the factory that had some pics of one apart. the power supply on the amp was huge. it looked like a good pro amp.

john j. built the lms cabs for warp. not sure if it was a one off project or something that is part of his lineup. i have no idea what they cost. he has the same problem of a large room with no gain. he went with pr design, multiples, and is very happy the last i heard.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1266665

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post #13 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"There are some good reasons the F113 costs a lot of money."

there was a tour of the factory that had some pics of one apart. the power supply on the amp was huge. it looked like a good pro amp.

john j. built the lms cabs for warp. not sure if it was a one off project or something that is part of his lineup. i have no idea what they cost. he has the same problem of a large room with no gain. he went with pr design, multiples, and is very happy the last i heard.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1266665


Correction..... they are Dual Opposed LMS's (twin 18" both powered drivers) not PR design...

That was a one off design and build project for me from John J at AESpeakers... and yes, still very happy...


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post #14 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Spanish68, Penngray, N8DOGG, LTD02, Funky Waves, mjaudio, and Warpdrv for the great advice and explanations.

After spending $3000, one wouldn't want to feel underpowered in a large room. I am curious, how musical would the LMS 18 be for music compared with the JL Audio F113?...

I remeasured the space, I could swing a net volume of 4 cu. ft. How does such a system "sound:"

-4 cu. ft. double 3/4" MDF panels (1.5" total thickness), internal matrix bracing.
-TC Sounds LMS 5400 18in + (2) VMP 18 PR
-Behringer DCS-2496
-Behringer EP2500 (to start)

I'll have to see what kind of mass I need for the PRs.

I checked out the Funky Waves website. Very nice indeed! I'll have to weigh in the option of having a system built...

Warpdrv, a wonderful setup! 2 LMS 18" - analogous to the Shelby Cobra 427 SC of subs! I wonder what the minimum volume is for dual opposed 18" drivers?...

This brings up another point. It would be interesting to compare the 2 types of systems for low end performance:
(1) LMS 18 + 2 VMP 18 PR in 3.5cu.ft vs Dual LMS 18 in 6-5cu.ft
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post #15 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 01:31 PM
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wow...major brain fart. sorry for confusing warp's build with something else.

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post #16 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post

Warpdrv, a wonderful setup! 2 LMS 18" - analogous to the Shelby Cobra 427 SC of subs! I wonder what the minimum volume is for dual opposed 18" drivers?...

427 - Multiplied x 3

I believe that Kyle from TC stated that he would have gone smaller then I did, with his internal - his suggestion was roughly 7 cu ft.... I think that would give an external of around 9-10 cubes external depending on build design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post

This brings up another point. It would be interesting to compare the 2 types of systems for low end performance:
(1) LMS 18 + 2 VMP 18 PR in 3.5cu.ft vs Dual LMS 18 in 6-5cu.ft

I'll quote Nathan here.... He brought this up about his 18.3 design PR with the LMS...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky Waves View Post

The 18.3 can be had with the LMS driver but in the standard size does not gain very much, if any. With the LMS driver we normally go a little bigger, couple inches deeper/wider, then it gets more low end output and extension. 18hz on the standard size is very conservative, in most setups it is flat to 15hz, tuning is 17hz. Btw we soon may have a way to tune the 18.3 lower, maybe as low as 14.5hz, giving useable output to 13hz.

With Dual Opposed depending on the room, you'll likely see better performance down low with dual opposed sealed, your room is roughly 6000cuft or less, you hsould have any issues seeing response below 15hz IMO.... YMMV


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post #17 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post


This brings up another point. It would be interesting to compare the 2 types of systems for low end performance:
(1) LMS 18 + 2 VMP 18 PR in 3.5cu.ft vs Dual LMS 18 in 6-5cu.ft

Not going to happen with one LMS and 2 VMP's in 3.5 ft^3.... have you seen the size of the driver and the baskets? The driver mounting depth is 13.25 inches.

Even if you went with a minimalist fiberglass enclosure and Acoustic Elegance 18" pr's I doubt you could get it under 4ft^3. Also, your tuning frequency would be quite a bit higher than needed in that size box, as you wouldn't be able to add enough mass to tune low.

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post #18 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 01:39 PM
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I just switched over to a new laptop so I don't have my WinISD up and running yet. From what I remember the LMS 5400 is best is a 5.5 to 6 cuft. enclosure when running a dual VMP set-up. Around 4 cuft. is the preferred sealed size depending on the power used but you have to make the PR design bigger if you want a lower tune.

I debated between dual sealed and PR designs and decided on sealed due to the smaller size and the money saved on 4 18" VMP's could just go to a better amp or 2. If I was to do a single sub then a PR design would have been the way to go but the minimum size I would have done was 5.5cuft.

I can't really comment on the musicality between the F113 and the LMS sealed since I don't have the F113 anymore and the LMS's cabs are not finished yet. I can say that the TC3000 I replaced the F113 with was not as articulate with music, the LMS is much better than the TC3000 so I would expect better results.

I would say the F113 was about 10 to 15% better musically than the TC3000 when I had the TC3K x-over at 60hz. For movies the TC3K was about 25 to 30% better than the F113 as it hit lower and louder and had a jump factor to the bass that the F113 lacked. the F113 had superior mid-bass and a pair of F113's would have demolished the single TC3K but that's $6K in subs right there.

You can't go wrong with a F113 especially if you value music as much as movies. I would suspect the LMS is as good musically as the F113 depending on the power you feed it as well as the EQ but for movies I know there is no comparison.

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post #19 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 01:41 PM
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2000 watts, 3.5 cubic footer tuned to 15hz and 7 cubic footer with 2 lms 18drivers.


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post #20 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 01:47 PM
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This is around 6.5-7ft^3 IIRC.... it's been a while since I did the math on it.

I can tell you with pink noise at 1/2 octave above tuning (27 hz in this case ) where excursion is the highest on the active driver, it was loud enough to modulate your voice outside at 12 ft away from the box. The neighbor's picture window @ about 50 ft away was flexing.


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post #21 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 02:04 PM
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88, i can't recall a single complaint about the lms ultra in all the years that it has been around.

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post #22 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

This is around 6.5-7ft^3 IIRC.... it's been a while since I did the math on it.

I can tell you with pink noise at 1/2 octave above tuning (27 hz in this case ) where excursion is the highest on the active driver, it was loud enough to modulate your voice outside at 12 ft away from the box. The neighbor's picture window @ about 50 ft away was flexing.


Michael, is that your box, I have never seen that one...
Nice PAINT there Mr. Paint...

And by the looks of it - all Titanium cones


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post #23 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 02:18 PM
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Yes, that is one of my boxes.... the mini ( half sized ) Beast.

Edit: Small one loaded with black cone LMS 5400 now and black VMP passives, I took the TI coned ones down as they were already broken in....

Bigg'un here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=989681

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post #24 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 02:41 PM
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mr. hurd, that box is like one of those pics where you are not sure what you are supposed to see...with the mirror front and top, but the flat black sides...my brain keeps saying something is cool about that, but something doesn't seem quite right. ;-)

i'm sure the box behind subs contributes to the overall fun. what is with the one sitting on top?

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post #25 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post

1. If passive radiators give more low bass extension by increasing efficiency with the same power, where's the trade off?... I am trying to think about it intuitively. Do passive radiators alter the system Q to the point where a decreased level of critical damping produces bass that's less accurate, less tight, with increased ringing?... [i]I ask this because my Def Tech Supercube I has 2 PR, with a 10in driver, and the bass is not tight, overextended and loose (ringing).

The PR's are an additional mass/spring system and Q is lowered.

However, that's true mosty around resonance, so if Fb is low enough it ought not to impact tightness at higher freq (probably this was not the case with your Supercube's).

A half-octave or so above resonance the drivers pretty much behave as sealed.

Don't take that as gospel, as sealed vs. ported is a controversial issue and has inspired much heated debate.

Noah
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post #26 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

mr. hurd, that box is like one of those pics where you are not sure what you are supposed to see...with the mirror front and top, but the flat black sides...my brain keeps saying something is cool about that, but something doesn't seem quite right. ;-)

i'm sure the box behind subs contributes to the overall fun. what is with the one sitting on top?

The box isn't flat black, it was shot with a custom mix RM-BASF Diamont basecoat that started out with '87 Honda Thunder Silver Metallic, then I added some other tinters as well as blue and yellow pearls to get that look.

Bottom is a birch Lascala, with a Heresy on top. The Heresy has a walnut veneer applied.

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post #27 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 04:33 PM
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88man, keep in mind that a single F113 or even duals will have a really rough time pressurizing that space..... They are very good subs but small sealed and large open room don't go hand in hand in the same sentence....


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post #28 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 06:20 PM
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We're just finishing up the production in the next week and shipping shortly after that. We're looking at late next month for delivery along with 8, 10 and 12" Epic's and more 12" LMS-R and VMP's.

As far as the F113 vs LMS, one is a lot bigger so its kind of a awkward comparison. I can't stay anything bad about the W7. Great woofer great quality and their home subs are top notch.

If you have never made a DIY sub, the LMS 5400 is bit large and its not easy to work with. The box is heavy, the woofer is heavy and unless you're prepared for a big project (not saying your not) you might be well served with someone like Nathan making you a box who has dealt with that woofer before. The other thing about a sealed box vs passive radiator box: Dropping the woofer in the sealed box is about 10 times harder. The PR holes let you reach in from the back and adjust things after the fact.

If you're at all worried about a subwoofer getting loud enough, consider this one too
http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_18_3
It's going to have more punch than the 5400, with just a tad less low end, but with the VMPs, it will still shake everything real good.

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post #29 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 08:11 PM
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In other words if you want the best, LMS 5400 is the Go ,

But Multiple Dual opposed like Warp's XLerators would be superior,
Also PR's work well if done right ..

Cheers..
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post #30 of 164 Old 11-26-2010, 10:00 PM
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mr. hurd, the pic must not do the sub justice. sounds like really nice custom paint. did you happen to do a build thread on that one, or maybe you could just post some pics and a description of the build. then i can link it up in the index. what kind of power are you putting on that sub?

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