Dayton OmniMic Precision Measurement System - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 2112 Old 11-29-2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Thrang, the OP has a new Denon AVR4311 with state-of-the-art Audyssey MultEQXT32 and you want him to use PEQ? So last century.

I owned a Denon AVP-A1, a Denon 4311, and the Pro kit. The best sound I've experienced is with the Classe and it's PEQ.

Audyssey has its issues. I like it in low to mid range systems (I use it on a new Denon in my family room), but never could get a well balanced sound in my higher end environment, despite countless attempts and following all the recommendations.
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post #1172 of 2112 Old 11-29-2011, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Another great feature would be able to have more than one measurement position for bass decay, spectrogram. When i measure for main LP the other seat isn't very good. I have 2 velodyne dd subs which are fantastic for music, especially when the modes can be dealt with.

The only software I know of that can do that is XTZ room analyzer...it's something not in room eq, arta or omnimic

Btw the new versions of XTZ room analyzer have been released, and they have made some nice updates. The standard version is now much cheaper and the pro version has much better hardware. The major functionality addition has been a spl meter which is both versions and is accurate to within 1db of a standalone calibrated spl meter that i have. The pro version also has a signal generator.

The standard is more a version intended for home theater calibration, eq of modal resonances and subwoofer integration. The pro version has more functionality for room measurement.

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post #1173 of 2112 Old 11-29-2011, 11:13 PM
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For some reason I did not see all the responses until now. I appreciate it. I decided I would not get it now. Maybe later. I do think it would be entertaining and informative to play around with. I decided to basically use my funds elsewhere for now. Thanks.
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post #1174 of 2112 Old 11-30-2011, 12:02 AM
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Nyal what does the signal generator do and used for on the XTZ, interesting.
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post #1175 of 2112 Old 11-30-2011, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

without a mini dsp or a PEQ - you'll likely not be able to do anything as a novice with an omnimic --- except discover that your FR isn't very smooth. :P

I'd not recommend it without a PEQ or DSP - or you'll not find anything out that you can really do much about. My subwoofer amp - the Inuke DSP 3000 has 8 parametric EQ bands on each channel that I can play with. The omnimic has served me well in my short term of ownership to REALLY smooth out my frequency response in my room using the amp's built in DSP. Since the omnimic itself can't be used to intervene the signal and change anything - if you don't have something that can --- then you'll find yourself only a powerless observer.

I find it's invaluable for sub placement(especially multiples), speaker distance and level adjustments, bass decay, crossover optimization of sub/satellites and active crossovers, and analysis of RT60 and early reflections to guide placement of room treatments. These are all benefits of measuring gear that can dramatically improve SQ independently of DSP or PEQ.

It is definitely above "novice" level, but we were all novices at some point. In fact, I'm still on the steep learning curve and if I had never purchased measuring gear I would not have gained even a small part of whatever little amount of knowledge I now possess. You can read about this stuff all day long, but you don't truly learn it until you do it.

So I say buy the gear. The benefits are many.
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post #1176 of 2112 Old 11-30-2011, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I owned a Denon AVP-A1, a Denon 4311, and the Pro kit. The best sound I've experienced is with the Classe and it's PEQ.

Audyssey has its issues. I like it in low to mid range systems (I use it on a new Denon in my family room), but never could get a well balanced sound in my higher end environment, despite countless attempts and following all the recommendations.

I was pulling your leg a bit, no offense intended. I know something of, and certainly respect, your chosen path to exc HT SQ. That said, your experience with Audyssey is atypical, though certainly not unique. I'm glad you've at last assembled a system which is more pleasing to you. That is indeed the objective.

Audyssey works, and works well, when properly implemented in the great majority of systems. XT32 is particularly adept and adds to SQ in many high-end systems. Ask Kal Rubinson.

So your post seemed kinda funny to me in the context of the OP. He didn't post that he is unhappy with his results, he was just making some basic inquiries as to the benefits of measurements and whether it might be worth $150.

I hope we're cool, I don't mean to start a whole pro/anti Audyssey thing on this thread. Now, with all of our help, the OP is far more informed.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1177 of 2112 Old 11-30-2011, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I was pulling your leg a bit, no offense intended. I know something of, and certainly respect, your chosen path to exc HT SQ. That said, your experience with Audyssey is atypical, though certainly not unique. I'm glad you've at last assembled a system which is more pleasing to you. That is indeed the objective.

Audyssey works, and works well, when properly implemented in the great majority of systems. XT32 is particularly adept and adds to SQ in many high-end systems. Ask Kal Rubinson.

So your post seemed kinda funny to me in the context of the OP. He didn't post that he is unhappy with his results, he was just making some basic inquiries as to the benefits of measurements and whether it might be worth $150.

I hope we're cool, I don't mean to start a whole pro/anti Audyssey thing on this thread. Now, with all of our help, the OP is far more informed.

No worries, I know there are too many permutations in each set up to be able to compare once experience to another.

In my scenario, I did have Jeff Meier come out to do a manual cal of my A1 when I owned it, and he did a baseline measurement of my audyssey pro cal, and it was boosting highs and cutting lows rather notably.
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post #1178 of 2112 Old 11-30-2011, 05:23 PM
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^Interesting and weird data on the Audyssey corrections. I think you just need better speakers.

Joking! I'm envious.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1179 of 2112 Old 11-30-2011, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Nyal what does the signal generator do and used for on the XTZ, interesting.

The signal generator has white noise, pink noise and sine waves. White noise is used by some people in speaker placement methodologies, pink noise is most often used to set levels and sine waves, well they have a lot of uses. Full feature list XTZ Room Analyzer Pro

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post #1180 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 07:58 AM
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I have a question for the designer or anyone that might know. I ran a frequency sweep, Bass distortion, and bass decay. Each of these give you a response so I assume they all should be the same, right? Mine are not, my frequency sweep with track 2(sine wave) for some reason is not the same as the other 2! Track 2 shows that I am +/-3 dbs from 5-40hz then it rises 20 dbs from there to 100 dbs. The 5hz to 30hz only goes to 65 dbs. I don't touch the volume and then run the distortion test with track 3 and now it reads +/- 3 dbs from 10-100hz and +/- 5 dbs from 7-100hz(only goes to . The levels are peaking at the same 95 dbs but this time everything is much higher than before. The bass decay is the same as the distortion but it only goes to 20hz. Do you guys think track 2 is screwed up somehow? The distortion plot makes more more sense to me than having a 20db rise starting at 50hz and going up? Maybe I need to turn my speakers off first just to be sure?

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post #1181 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 08:16 AM
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MK,

Any way you can grab some screen shots of this issue for those of us who are better at looking at things? Thanks.

James
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post #1182 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by exojam View Post

MK,

Any way you can grab some screen shots of this issue for those of us who are better at looking at things? Thanks.

James

I will as soon as I can. Basically when I want a frequency sweep the low end is never high enough but all I have to do is run a distortion graph at the same volume and the graph becomes flatter and louder with track 3(long sweep). Maybe my short sweeps are off? This is done without EQ and expect a slight drop around 7 dbs from my amp rolloff and the distortion graph shows this but the frequency sweep does not. Like I said, it hits 95 dbs at 100 hz but only 65 dbs from 5-30hz. Again maybe I need to trun the mains off but then I won't hear the lady talk on the disc. Maybe it will get rid of that 100 hz rise? Still, why is the frequency sweep so low? I have my processor on a level where it should be much higher, like 85-95 dbs through all frequencies.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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post #1183 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 08:26 AM
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Well that does sound strange to say the least. It also sounds like you have a newer CD to play the tracks with. Mine is the original CD which does not have the newer tracks or anyone speaking on it.

James
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post #1184 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Well that does sound strange to say the least. It also sounds like you have a newer CD to play the tracks with. Mine is the original CD which does not have the newer tracks or anyone speaking on it.

James

My mic is less than 30 days old. The distortion graph looks great although only to 7hz but if it went to 5 hz I would just use that. I know 5hz and 7 hz are the same as a sweep at 100 dbs is concerned. I will try to get my calibrated behringer mic going to compare. Last time I tried they did not look the same at all. I bet all these differencies in responses is more a function of our meters than rooms. I get different results with 3 different meters for crying out loud.

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post #1185 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 04:03 PM
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The software is ok, but i feel it is more for speaker vs room acoustics.
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post #1186 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 04:51 PM
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Looks like the new cd has individual tracks for the left and right speakers. What would be great is a disk with sweeps for each 5.1 channel. It would eliminate the hassle of disconnecting speakers for measurement.
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post #1187 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

The software is ok, but i feel it is more for speaker vs room acoustics.

Yes and not surprising considering the provenance.

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post #1188 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes and not surprising considering the provenance.

This is a personal opinion, I would of thought there would have been more towards the room considering rooms have a big part towards the sound. Alot of eq out there now, as it use to be frowned apond to audiophiles, bit more acceptable now with technology.
Distortion personally i have no interest in due to its something i am stuck with good or bad until i change equipment (would rather get the room right before looking at new equipment).
What there is for rooms is restricted, pretty basic, frequency response, bass decay (only one measurement position), no eq solutions, waterfall graphs.
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post #1189 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 06:01 PM
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It does have waterfall capabilities if you go into the advanced functions.

James

From the help menu:

Frequency Response: Waterfalls
Waterfall plots are used by driver and loudspeaker designers for driver selection, to identify resonances or reflections, and to view driver and waveguide behavior.

The Waterfall feature becomes available when you click the Waterfall button (above the Frequency Response graph, next to the Smoothing control) when "Advanced Features" are enabled. Waterfalls are calculated from the impulse response.

What does a Waterfall mean?
A waterfall is an attempt to illustrate on a 3-D graph how the energy decays or is radiated over a range of frequencies. OmniMic includes three different styles of waterfall processes, selectable via the "Waterfall Type" menu.

A "Cumulative Spectral Decay", or "CSD" waterfall shows a series of time slices approximately indicating the contribution to the total response that is made after the time instant shown in the axis going into the screen. When a loudspeaker is driven with an electrical impulse, the pressure it creates should ideally also represent a pressure impulse. But loudspeaker drivers aren't ideal so they also generate resonances -- pressure waves that decay more slowly at various frequencies. The effects of echoes can hide the resonances in a CSD waterfall, but at higher frequencies the echoes can be removed by "Windowing" the calculation to only include the part of the Impulse Response that occurs before the first reflection (from a surface such as a wall or furniture) reaches the OmniMic. Careful choice of positioning within the Impulse Response is critical, because the effects of any reflections included within the selected portion will contaminate all regions of the graph up to that point on the time axis. Below some frequency determined by where the Impulse Response is clicked and how far along on the time (depth) axis a trace exists, meaningful calculation cannot be done. The graph curve is chopped off at those points on the waterfall display.

The CSD waterfall calculation process introduces some spurious side effects, so the graph should be viewed in general terms. Exact values along the curves of waterfalls are not usually reliable, rather, the positions and sizes of decaying forward-approaching ridges on the graph indicate frequency and relative intensities of resonances.
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post #1190 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

It does have waterfall capabilities if you go into the advanced functions.

James

From the help menu:

Frequency Response: Waterfalls
Waterfall plots are used by driver and loudspeaker designers for driver selection, to identify resonances or reflections, and to view driver and waveguide behavior.

The Waterfall feature becomes available when you click the Waterfall button (above the Frequency Response graph, next to the Smoothing control) when "Advanced Features" are enabled. Waterfalls are calculated from the impulse response.

What does a Waterfall mean?
A waterfall is an attempt to illustrate on a 3-D graph how the energy decays or is radiated over a range of frequencies. OmniMic includes three different styles of waterfall processes, selectable via the "Waterfall Type" menu.

A "Cumulative Spectral Decay", or "CSD" waterfall shows a series of time slices approximately indicating the contribution to the total response that is made after the time instant shown in the axis going into the screen. When a loudspeaker is driven with an electrical impulse, the pressure it creates should ideally also represent a pressure impulse. But loudspeaker drivers aren't ideal so they also generate resonances -- pressure waves that decay more slowly at various frequencies. The effects of echoes can hide the resonances in a CSD waterfall, but at higher frequencies the echoes can be removed by "Windowing" the calculation to only include the part of the Impulse Response that occurs before the first reflection (from a surface such as a wall or furniture) reaches the OmniMic. Careful choice of positioning within the Impulse Response is critical, because the effects of any reflections included within the selected portion will contaminate all regions of the graph up to that point on the time axis. Below some frequency determined by where the Impulse Response is clicked and how far along on the time (depth) axis a trace exists, meaningful calculation cannot be done. The graph curve is chopped off at those points on the waterfall display.

The CSD waterfall calculation process introduces some spurious side effects, so the graph should be viewed in general terms. Exact values along the curves of waterfalls are not usually reliable, rather, the positions and sizes of decaying forward-approaching ridges on the graph indicate frequency and relative intensities of resonances.

Thanks for that James
I have used the Waterfall a couple of times but really didnt find them that useful.
So Waterfall & CSD aren't very accurate mesurements for decay?
So the bass decay tab is the more accurate, if so would it be possible to have measurements for more than one position, hopefully i haven't missed something in your post.
So for example the way that i understand XTZs work for there bass decay measurement isn't accurate?
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post #1191 of 2112 Old 12-02-2011, 11:19 PM
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"CSD and waterfall plots involve a trade-off between time and frequency resolution. For high time resolution you need short (ir) windows so that you get a better picture of what is happening in the response but short windows mean poor frequency resolution. Longer windows give better frequency resolution but at the cost of time resolution." John room eq wizard author

I do not know the exact nature of omnimic calculations but i would wager that is why you guys are seeing what you are seeing with differences in the absolute values and variations between different views on the data.

Now also you should understand that the same limitations and trade offs apply to all acoustic measurement software. Some do make easier to interpret graphs (they make the choice for you, and you can't change it so it gives you useless data views) whilst others allow you to choose your poison (do you want good frequency or good time resolution).

XTZ and rew have good graphs, ideally you want ability to display out to 1000ms with 3 to 4hz frequency resolution. That way you can discern individual room modes, which is what you should be using these graphs for in the context of room acoustics.

For speaker analysis you want something much different, maybe 10ms on the time axis and maybe trade off the frequency resolution for time resolution since the resonances are very short lived (though don't quote me on that I am not a speaker design dude)

Hope that helps

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post #1192 of 2112 Old 12-03-2011, 10:10 AM
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Question. If there is an updated CD with the newer software how do we obtain a copy of it if we have an older CD? Is there a link somewhere to download a copy of it? I searched on the Parts Express page as well as the Dayton web site and couldn't find anything.
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post #1193 of 2112 Old 12-03-2011, 10:29 AM
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Question. If there is an updated CD with the newer software how do we obtain a copy of it if we have an older CD? Is there a link somewhere to download a copy of it? I searched on the Parts Express page as well as the Dayton web site and couldn't find anything.

http://www.parts-express.com/softwar...stallv3.05.exe

is the latest, 11/11/11 software version download.
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post #1194 of 2112 Old 12-03-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

This is a personal opinion, I would of thought there would have been more towards the room considering rooms have a big part towards the sound. Alot of eq out there now, as it use to be frowned apond to audiophiles, bit more acceptable now with technology.
Distortion personally i have no interest in due to its something i am stuck with good or bad until i change equipment (would rather get the room right before looking at new equipment).
What there is for rooms is restricted, pretty basic, frequency response, bass decay (only one measurement position), no eq solutions, waterfall graphs.

Room EQ Wizard does this.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1195 of 2112 Old 12-03-2011, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

"CSD and waterfall plots involve a trade-off between time and frequency resolution. For high time resolution you need short (ir) windows so that you get a better picture of what is happening in the response but short windows mean poor frequency resolution. Longer windows give better frequency resolution but at the cost of time resolution." John room eq wizard author

I do not know the exact nature of omnimic calculations but i would wager that is why you guys are seeing what you are seeing with differences in the absolute values and variations between different views on the data.

Now also you should understand that the same limitations and trade offs apply to all acoustic measurement software. Some do make easier to interpret graphs (they make the choice for you, and you can't change it so it gives you useless data views) whilst others allow you to choose your poison (do you want good frequency or good time resolution).

XTZ and rew have good graphs, ideally you want ability to display out to 1000ms with 3 to 4hz frequency resolution. That way you can discern individual room modes, which is what you should be using these graphs for in the context of room acoustics.

For speaker analysis you want something much different, maybe 10ms on the time axis and maybe trade off the frequency resolution for time resolution since the resonances are very short lived (though don't quote me on that I am not a speaker design dude)

Hope that helps

Thanks yes it does help. In the bass region what is all the important issues to look for, in order of importance?
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post #1196 of 2112 Old 12-03-2011, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

http://www.parts-express.com/softwar...stallv3.05.exe

is the latest, 11/11/11 software version download.

Downloaded, but when i tried to run the exe came back as file not found?
My last update (v3.04) was on the 6.11.11, but back in the download folder it says it is v3.05. A liitle confused what version i have.
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post #1197 of 2112 Old 12-04-2011, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Downloaded, but when i tried to run the exe came back as file not found?
My last update (v3.04) was on the 6.11.11, but back in the download folder it says it is v3.05. A liitle confused what version i have.

Problem with the downloading all fixed, went to Dayton website and downloaded from there.
What are the updates in v3.05?
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post #1198 of 2112 Old 12-04-2011, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

http://www.parts-express.com/softwar...stallv3.05.exe

is the latest, 11/11/11 software version download.

Does this include a newer version of the CD tone tracks? IOW the original software had a physical CD that is played in your player. Tones are not generated from within the software on your computer. There were comments here that the newest CD has more separate tracks for separate front speakers as opposed to a single stereo tone. Or am I mistaken?
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post #1199 of 2112 Old 12-04-2011, 12:02 PM
RUR
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Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

Does this include a newer version of the CD tone tracks? IOW the original software had a physical CD that is played in your player. Tones are not generated from within the software on your computer. There were comments here that the newest CD has more separate tracks for separate front speakers as opposed to a single stereo tone. Or am I mistaken?

Bill responded to a similar query earlier:
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

There will be a new CD available next year, with more tracks (mostly the same as currently, but with Left only and Right only options and some bandlimited versions. And a level cal 55Hz tone, so a DVM can measure the voltage on speaker cables.

The current CD is still accurate, and the same tracks (shorter versions) will be on the new CD in the same track numbers.

A DVD is planned for sometime next year, too, for 5.1 channel directed outputs.

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post #1200 of 2112 Old 12-04-2011, 03:12 PM
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Bill responded to a similar query earlier:...

Thanks for the replies. Looking forward to this and especially the 5.1 DVD later on.
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