Dayton OmniMic Precision Measurement System - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwomd View Post

I have both the plastic and pro kit mics.

My question was if anyone currently has the new Dayton rig.

Thanks

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post #152 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I think people need to separate accuracy from what curve they want.

We can model our system to be accurate during the design stage but then we should have complete control over the curve we want in room. If we look at Sean Olive's blog and the work at Harman we will see that generally people like a tilted down curve anyways.

I am sorry to say I am not familiar with Sean Olive's work (and one of the problems with getting interested in these kinds of discussions is that my reading list just keeps getting longer an longer; my wife already wonders what I am doing in front of my computer late at night ) by a tilted down curve, do you mean HF roll off?

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

What is really an acurate in room response though?

A) is it a flat on axis response curve?

B) is it a tilted down on-axis response curve following Feltcher-Munson curve for equal loudness? (following what Harman proved in blind tests)

C) is it a about having a better polar response, better power response?

I think some of the answers to the questions above have to do with intended use and room design.

For instance, in a more reflective room, the reflected sound should probably have a frequency response curve which is as similar as possible to the direct sound, so the power response of the loudspeaker should be flat. I would think this would be important too in rooms with larger audiences such as the larger multiseat home theaters some people have since only a few listeners will be on axis, which also argues for better polar response.

On the other hand, in a room designed to control reflected sound with a single listener on axis, which seems to a common way many 2 channel aficionados listen, power and polar response may not be as important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The product in this thread allows people to learn about the accuracy of their speakers/equipment. I always believed its all about learning all the compromises in our systems more then anything else.

What they do after that is 100% choice.

So in the end I think we agree?

Wayne
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post #153 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The ultimate goal should be accuracy."
.........................

or let us say that i am young girl who frequents dance clubs and i love the power of the beat. the power of the beat makes me want to jump around. then i find out that my club runs the bass 6 db hot. when i play it "accurate", it sounds lame. can i not eq the bottom-end way up in order to relive that blissful experience?

I often consider this conundrum.

Mixing live is not like DJing. However, at a live event, I can individually emphasize what I want. I can bring all the LF elements, synth, kick, maybe bass guitar or whatever, and EQ and raise in level an element to the point that it's hitting you hard in the chest (maybe 60hz), and yet it really plunges deep in spectrum as well. It depends on the subs in use, however the vocals and all other key elements in the mix remain spectrally accurate. Their tonality isn't biased toward the bottom as the previous elements are.

What you hear live is correct. It's correct because it's chiefly an artists choice of tone that they hand off to the FOH, and the FOH engineer needs to apply EQ to flesh out each mix element to make them discernible. It's been discussed here before, but an unbelievable amount of adulteration is done to the tone of the kick drum. Anyway, with the exception of room effects, primarily what the young girl hears at a venue is correct.

That, cannot be replicated ideally at playback. To EQ at playback to achieve this, without altering other elements, is difficult at best.


Ok, somewhat OT.

I ordered the Dayton rig, haven't heard a thing yet.

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post #154 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

My question was if anyone currently has the new Dayton rig.

Thanks


Every day I keep checking the status of this...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790

Out of stock is what they put, but they just haven't gotten any in period yet, but I believe that a few reviewers like Kal have one on the way or got it already. He was going to do a write up on it, but I would imagine that won't be to magazine print unit March or April.....

I'll know when they get them in, and I will likely have one shipped to me right away.... Likely others will as well...
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post #155 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 10:26 AM
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I better get mine as well, as I've already paid

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
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post #156 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I often consider this conundrum.

Mixing live is not like DJing. However, at a live event, I can individually emphasize what I want. I can bring all the LF elements, synth, kick, maybe bass guitar or whatever, and EQ and raise in level an element to the point that it's hitting you hard in the chest (maybe 60hz), and yet it really plunges deep in spectrum as well. It depends on the subs in use, however the vocals and all other key elements in the mix remain spectrally accurate. Their tonality isn't biased toward the bottom as the previous elements are.

What you hear live is correct. It's correct because it's chiefly an artists choice of tone that they hand off to the FOH, and the FOH engineer needs to apply EQ to flesh out each mix element to make them discernible. It's been discussed here before, but an unbelievable amount of adulteration is done to the tone of the kick drum. Anyway, with the exception of room effects, primarily what the young girl hears at a venue is correct.

That, cannot be replicated ideally at playback. To EQ at playback to achieve this, without altering other elements, is difficult at best.


Ok, somewhat OT.

I ordered the Dayton rig, haven't heard a thing yet.

Nice write up there FOH - its painful too see all the discussion about "realistic playback" when so much of the whole and entire source has been altered all the way to pressing to disc.... So who's version are we hearing at that point ? It certainly isn't live IMO.

You can only do so much adjustment /EQ in the home to shape things on the fly.... possibly preset EQ settings...? but hardly what something the likes the FOH has at his fingertips... Could you imagine sitting in your living room and have a complete mixing setup just to tailor the sound on the fly.... I want to see that guy....
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post #157 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I better get mine as well, as I've already paid

Just got a verbal update from PE that they are en route and will be in stock in roughly 3 weeks....

They have a few on hand that they are testing to verify that the first run products are functioning fully and properly. There seems to be quite the buzz about this product from what the sales person was saying... alot of interest....
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post #158 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post


Could you imagine sitting in your living room and have a complete mixing setup just to tailor the sound on the fly.... I want to see that guy....

For me, that's the attraction to mixing live.

Make each element a tangible entity in the mix. Assure the lead vocal is just this side of shrill, tons of detail and razor sharp, and yet pleasingly smooth and liquid. The bass guitar can easily become mush and buried, you've got to EQ it to allow the tonal structure to be fleshed out and differentiated. And of course the kick drum, the new lead vocal It's got to cut right through the dense mix to the point one easily hears the boom(50), smack(3k) and click(6k).

There is no absolute with electric and acoustic sources, being manipulated by seemingly endless stages of spectral shaping. The result, in the first third of the house, is the final product.

The previous example is heavy handed rock/pop/r&b. I did an outdoor three piece jazz show once. An outdoor Biergarten (100 year old German place), amidst condos on all four sides. Never mixed these guys, but a bike cop stood next to me at the FOH and check SPLs to assure cooperation with the local residents. I don't remember the level requirement, however the low levels allowed me to EQ in a substantial amount of real low stuff. The kick drum had a normal higher tune, but I emphasized the 30-40 stuff because of all the added headroom due to the low operating level. Being so low in frequency, the local Gendarme and her cheap SPL meter, allowed the high levels of low freqs to pass with no objection.

It was quite a thrill to EQ in this manner on the fly, it added an extremely nice weight to the presentation. Very enjoyable. I remember the system, two double 15s per side, ground stacked, and unknown flown tops.



Back on track, as soon as I get my Dayton system, I'll get my initial impressions up asap. The primary reason for purchase is to integrate properly the IB sub.

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post #159 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Just got a verbal update from PE that they are en route and will be in stock in roughly 3 weeks....

They have a few on hand that they are testing to verify that the first run products are functioning fully and properly. There seems to be quite the buzz about this product from what the sales person was saying... alot of interest....

Suh-weet! I'll probably wait to order mine after CES in January. That is, unless there is a group buy organized.

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post #160 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Just got a verbal update from PE that they are en route and will be in stock in roughly 3 weeks....

They have a few on hand that they are testing to verify that the first run products are functioning fully and properly. There seems to be quite the buzz about this product from what the sales person was saying... alot of interest....

Thanks for the update. If you happen to hear otherwise, I'd be grateful to get a heads up.

Thank you.

------------------------------------
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post #161 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Suh-weet! I'll probably wait to order mine after CES in January. That is, unless there is a group buy organized.

I can't get any info about the pricing until they have received the full shipment, and a group buy would entail me getting all of them and then shipping them out to individuals. At that point I will consider if there is any real savings in dollar amount to justify my time invested.... Just to be realistic and honest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Thanks for the update. If you happen to hear otherwise, I'd be grateful to get a heads up.

Thank you.

As you already placed an order FOH, you will know the same time I will From what was stated, they will not be shy of supply....
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post #162 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 12:53 PM
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thanks for the replies guys...

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #163 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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So what are you saying here LTD02.... are you an old man or a young girl...?
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post #164 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 03:48 PM
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"So what are you saying here LTD02.... are you an old man or a young girl...?"

;-)

i knew that was coming warp...i was just trying to get outside my frame of reference and see things from two very different perspectives...

as for me, i am the old man. no shame in being old though...

these kinds of comments are fair and fun, but you have to put something on topic in.

since you are on the buy list, i guess that is good enough, as your measurements will be forthcoming.

given that the mic will clip at high spl, one alternative approach is to measure at 10 meters and then adjust the results back up.

looking forward to whatever you have warp. btw, merry christmas to you and your family.

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post #165 of 2090 Old 12-08-2010, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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No shame in being old indeed.... I'm certainly there myself....

I truly meant no offense my friend.. Just good hearted banter at a fellow enthusiast and appreciate the Christmas sentiments.

Actually I think its a very valid point to make.... most people don't look at those types of view points in comparison to all the specs and numbers that are thrown around...
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post #166 of 2090 Old 12-09-2010, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Isn't the Audyssey pro mic the same one sold by Velodyne (DD/SMS-1/MIC-5), Behringer, Nady, Dayton, and others?

That may be the stated FR, but the ones I've seen are much closer than that. I have three: one from a Denon 4308ci, one from a Denon 3808ci, and one from an Alpine PXE-H650 car processor. They're interchangeable for all practical purposes.

DS-21, please don't read this as argumentative, just trying to find out if you've got more data that you haven' revealed.

Have you compared those various Audyssey mics to a known calibrated mic or are you simply saying they all measure the same with your Mac? Chris K of Audyssey has said numerous times that Audy receivers contain calibration files for their mics and Kal pointed out that the Pro mics also ship with an encrypted calibration file. For the non-pro versions, one can imagine that proper QC would allow something like a Panasonic WM6x capsules to work with a "generic" correction file to fit within the +/- 2dB window that Chris K has implied they use. For the Pro mic, while they look the same, Herb at Cross-Spectrum has confirmed the Dayton is assembled somewhat differently than the Behringer and seems to measure more consistently across batches so there's no reason to believe that the Audy version couldn't also be built to a different QC standard.

I had been meaning to try this for a couple of years now, but you got me curious enough to actually do it last night. Using REW, I ran sub sweeps using an Onkyo 805 mic (puck style), an Onkyo 507 mic (tower style), and my early '90s RS 33-2050 SPL meter. For the 33-2050, I used both the old cal file from HTS (Illka produced?) and the more recent file produced by Cross-Spectrum Labs for HTS. The old file contains many more correction points, but ultimately, in this bass sweep old vs. new was almost exactly 5dB different across the range, with the CrossSpectrum being the 5dB higher reading.

Sweep was 10-200Hz, mains off, xover=80Hz, graphs are raw w/no smoothing. No settings were changed between sweeps except mic gain and SPL recal for the Audyssey mics...they appear to be a lot less sensitive than the RS meter at line level. I'd love to believe the Audyssey mics produced the more accurate of these measurements, but it's hard to believe that Audyssey's come up with a mic that needs no correction for less than $20 (Onkyo replacement pricing). OTOH, the old 2050s have a reputation for being consistent enough to work pretty well with the generic cal files....

purple = 33-2050 with CrossSpectrum cal
blue = 33-2050 with Illka? cal
yellow/green = Audyssey mics

-Brent
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post #167 of 2090 Old 12-09-2010, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post


Have you compared those various Audyssey mics to a known calibrated mic or are you simply saying they all measure the same with your Mac? Chris K of Audyssey has said numerous times that Audy receivers contain calibration files for their mics and Kal pointed out that the Pro mics also ship with an encrypted calibration file. For the non-pro versions, one can imagine that proper QC would allow something like a Panasonic WM6x capsules to work with a "generic" correction file to fit within the +/- 2dB window that Chris K has implied they use.

FWIW, I've measured two of the Audyssey APM1 microphones, and the curves looked nothing alike. It's not a large sample, but I suggest taking care when using any two random Audyssey mics interchangeably without the Audyssey correction curve.
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post #168 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Nice write up there FOH - its painful too see all the discussion about "realistic playback" when so much of the whole and entire source has been altered all the way to pressing to disc.... So who's version are we hearing at that point ? It certainly isn't live IMO.

You can only do so much adjustment /EQ in the home to shape things on the fly.... possibly preset EQ settings...? but hardly what something the likes the FOH has at his fingertips... Could you imagine sitting in your living room and have a complete mixing setup just to tailor the sound on the fly.... I want to see that guy....

If you have to right products in home you can do as much tweaking as you want.

I have on many ocassions sat next to my DCX and listened to music, changing everything possible on the fly and that includes XOs to each driver. Even saved some of the settings for different types of music.

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post #169 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree Penn, but how far do you want to take it, when your sitting listening to your music and just plain old enjoying it.... It almost gets to a point that when you have an already over the top setup like most of us here, is your goal to constantly have your mentality set towards adjustment of this and that - or just plain close your eyes and enjoy the system for what it is.... I really like to just be able to set it and forget it - sit back and relax.....

Constant tweaking is not relaxing to me.... I generally touch a few fine adjustments here and there but I'm certainly not interested in tweaking the whole signal path. And I can tell you that it can really be annoying when others just want to just watch or listen...
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post #170 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 08:11 AM
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Don't buy the mic then Warp, you are probably going to find out some stuff that you didn't know was there and then like me you will work and research on how to get rid of it thus taking away the theater enjoyment because you know its there!

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post #171 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL, I do need need a measuring system for my subs. I already know what the rest of my setup measures, it's being graphed and corrected by ARC in the D2v.

As awesome as the subs sound I want to have the ability to test out different dsp scenarios with them.
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post #172 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I agree Penn, but how far do you want to take it, when your sitting listening to your music and just plain old enjoying it.... It almost gets to a point that when you have an already over the top setup like most of us here, is your goal to constantly have your mentality set towards adjustment of this and that - or just plain close your eyes and enjoy the system for what it is.... I really like to just be able to set it and forget it - sit back and relax.....

Constant tweaking is not relaxing to me.... I generally touch a few fine adjustments here and there but I'm certainly not interested in tweaking the whole signal path. And I can tell you that it can really be annoying when others just want to just watch or listen...

It just depends on your goals. I only tweak to learn about something. What is funny is that If I really just wanted to enjoy music. I would use headphones and an ipod I use that more then I use my setup that I have built and tweaked for years!!

If I wanted the best experience I would find a very good cover band or original band, go to that bar, get drunk and enjoy the music. Sadly, that is very hard to do these days

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post #173 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 11:13 AM
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I think this is a cool setup. My measuring rig can be a little annoying and I probably would have gone this route from the start if it had been available. It would have to work as a mic with other programs though such as HOLMImpulse. I wouldn't want to be tied to the proprietary software.
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post #174 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I think this is a cool setup. My measuring rig can be a little annoying and I probably would have gone this route from the start if it had been available. It would have to work as a mic with other programs though such as HOLMImpulse. I wouldn't want to be tied to the proprietary software.


Now there is a really good thought....

Not to state that the software that comes with the Mic will not be enough for most, but having the ability to use it for other programs such as REW or HOLM would def be a huge advantage for this.... I'm sure in time - down the line there will be USB products like this, that one could buy with the cal file and use it interchangeably.
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post #175 of 2090 Old 12-10-2010, 12:16 PM
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If this product can export the impulse measurement then we can use any HOLM, ARTA etc. We would simply import that impulse file.

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post #176 of 2090 Old 12-14-2010, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just responding to a thread, and looking for some information and came across this...

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/
http://studio-six-digital.amazonwebs...B002Y1P63E.htm



I'm not interested in this, It just caught my eye... just thought I'd post it here...
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post #177 of 2090 Old 12-17-2010, 03:23 PM
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This looks like an interesting product, although I don't see that it will check for polarity and I don't see the stated resolution...especially for the low end. Anyone know what the resolution is?

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post #178 of 2090 Old 12-17-2010, 03:37 PM
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Spoke with a wonderfully nice young lady today at PE, and she informed me the units are arriving on 12/30/10, and shipping immediately. There are 13 units back ordered, and over 100 units total arriving for stock

I may perform additional testing wrt IB placement upon arrival. I'm really looking forward to playing with this Dayton piece.

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post #179 of 2090 Old 12-17-2010, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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That coincides with what they were telling me on the 8th, 3 weeks, which puts it right on time of the 29th or 30th....
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post #180 of 2090 Old 12-17-2010, 03:53 PM
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Cool. Hopefully there will be plenty of stock to make it thru January, at the least. I'll want to order mine when I get back from Vegas.

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