8x sealed Maelstrom 18s build thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

notnyt - did you have any "hifi" speakers before those JBLs? If so, I'm curious on how you think they compare. In the literature, the FR appears to be really nice and I'm sure it has effortless dynamics. Just wondering how they might compare to a more traditional home speaker, as they are reasonably priced.

They're fantastic. The clarity and dynamics blow away anything I've ever heard. The only downside is the size. The 4722N's went for like $1000 a piece, and the 3677 went for like $500, so they don't break the bank either. I have absolutely no desire to upgrade from those.

I had a set of RF83s and RC64 center. The RF83s were great, but the RC64 struggled with lower frequencies a bit with the smaller drivers. They were all horn loaded, so the highs were nice. The JBLs seem less fatiguing. I can't quite tell why, but definitely easier to listen to.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

DO you have an off switch for the light indications or do you not have that problem?

And do the Marathons have any glaring lights?

My Crest Pro 7200 has a glaring blue light that is absurd. I usually just put a book in front of it for now. Just wondered.

What do you mean light indications?

The Marathons have bright blue lights, but a dab of latex paint easily fixes that =]
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I noticed, and bookmarked it. It's basically why I bothered to post in that thread at all.

He said measurements of his sub verified the model. He also said he would "post a bunch of measurements", which, of course, never happened.

I saved the various FR graphs Chase has posted over the course. I also laid his peak numbers on the graph:


This is just info that he posted. I questioned it because it's questionable.

What I said then, regarding the incorrect statement he made about his sub having the same output as the XXX with 1/4 the power, blah, blah, is a simple fact of the sealed L/T'd subwoofer:


My point was, and is; it sounds like a great sub for the money, so why do you have to post crap that isn't true about it? Just present it (or any sub) on its merits instead of trying to post garbage about how it is a better choice than the 3 best HT drivers ever designed and built (XXX, M-X and LMS 5400).

The guy called me a liar, clueless, junior, went to the mods and tried to get me banned (then visited my profile to see if he was successful) and said everything I think I know about sealed subwoofers, "we" (whoever that is) knew in the 70s.

C'mon now, everyone here knows that only Callas and I are allowed to have that sort of exchange, although neither of us would run to the principal and whine about it.

Truth is, no one carries on like that here. It's just indicative of the direction the forum has been heading in.

Bosso

Geez Bosso, you clearly know zilch. Each of those frequency responses are capable, just depends on how many feet you remove and how much air is allowed out of those "ports".

Sorry, couldn't resist. Those FR's and CEA peak numbers are just ridiculous.

But hey, it sells. Admittedly, before researching my own subs (while looking for some smaller sealed subs that could match my PB13 down low) I wasn't that far from most outside of the DIY forum (not that I'm overly knowledgeable now! ).

It's a shame to see guys like you go, as well as Illkka, Ed, Mark etc. who basically can't post much now that they own or sell product.

 

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Old 01-03-2011, 09:28 PM
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Somehow this comment on the resent discovery of a statically large amount of well-established, multiply confirmed findings in science from many fields cannot be replicated, and the possible cause(s) of it seems relative here.

"nahh, the problem is a misunderstanding of statistics (thinking that post-hoc analysis with this fishing for statistical significance) is as valid as proper hypothesis testing. The proper way is where the hypothesis is fully pre-formed and then tested. The numbers and statistics apply ONLY TO THE HYPOTHESIS being tested, so you cannot hunt for a statistical significance just somewhere in the data and then re-formulate your hypothesis."

I would say, "look for confirmations in your numbers, and not numbers for your affirmations."

Easy to say, harder to do, but worth the effort.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:41 PM
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"The guy called me a liar, clueless, junior, went to the mods and tried to get me banned"

i'm not in favor of anybody being banned for expressing their viewpoint, so long as there is a modicum of truth there, particularly the folks with many good posts over the years.

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Old 01-03-2011, 09:51 PM
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where is this coming from bosso?

please provide the cites.

why no scale on the vertical axis?


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Old 01-04-2011, 10:09 AM
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My comment about CHT was over a claimed 1w winisd generated graph of their single 18" that he posted in comparison to an lms and a mal-x. It looked too good to be true so I ran some simulations of my own and I could not meet the 1w output claimed with any driver I tried. Even an AE TD18+H was a full db or so short. An 18 sound 21nlw9600 with a bl^2/re >310 and 33% more cone area was falling short too. I find that hard to believe out of a custom Eminence driver. I have nothing wrong with Eminence, they make good value, American made stuff and are not too far from me but they aren't known for breaking the mold exactly if you mean what I mean. Hence the unobtanium driver comments. If a $900 italian 21" pro woofer with a neo motor providing 3x the motor force of a typical sub driver can't even match it...

Steve,
It was DSL themselves that fried a driver on a dts10 with sine waves trying to max output test it. Not me.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Steve,
It was DSL themselves that fried a driver on a dts10 with sine waves trying to max output test it. Not me.

The best was after they did that, one of em was saying how 'it could go louder, but the driver fried'.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:01 AM
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Most any driver would've fried being tested like that though. Sine waves out of a 6000 w amp will do that. They needed to do a proper burst test. Like the tests they were trying to compare to. Anyway sorry for all of the thread jacking.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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its cool. this thread kind of stalled waiting for UPS. My stuff gets here tomorrow.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

where is this coming from bosso?

please provide the cites.

why no scale on the vertical axis?


Red trace taken from Craig's posted model:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...3&postcount=25

Of which he said:
Quote:


Our actual measurements of the CS-18.2 confirm the accuracy of the WIN ISD model, too.

Blue trace from Craig's posted model:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=331

Brown trace from Craig's posted close-mic measurement:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=336

Dashed green trace from CHT's site posting the CS FR:
Quote:


The CS-18.2 will have a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 23 to 200 Hz.

CEA numbers are from CHT's forum and site:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...4&postcount=26

The vertical scale is 5dB per division. SPL numbers aren't necessary, as the top end is zero, reflecting only response magnitude.

The CEA numbers were overlaid using 20 Hz as the zero point. IOW, Craig originally used his single sine wave 10% THD limited max output #s and later posted the CEA #s, which apparently are just the original #s, plus 4dB.

They hold the same relative scale and are laid on the claimed native FR using 20 Hz as the starting point.

Hope this helps.

Bosso
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:11 AM
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Sorry to threadjack but I have a question about those graphs. I really could not keep up with that thread .... too much back and forth for me. But I noticed in the 'red trace' FR plot that it's mentioned that the 18.2 is being compared to the LMS/Mal-X's and not the 18.1. So I wonder if that's where the extra SPL is coming from. I wouldn't leave it to you guys to miss that as I am the more likely to miss stuff (I'm Mr. Oblivious, anyway) than you guys will but I just noticed that and wondered what you guys thought. It really wasn't until the 'brown trace' was posted that I kinda what, "wait... what?" when I saw it. So something is ... umm.... goofy.

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Old 01-04-2011, 12:16 PM
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sorry for the off topic, but karaokeequipment dot com do now have the Marathon 5050 in stock for $645.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:22 PM
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bosso, thanks for providing references.

one thing that doesn't look quite right are the "stars" in your plot, craig's claimed cea #'s. you reference this site:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...4&postcount=26
on that site are only 20, 25, and 32hz datapoints, then average results everywhere else. how are you getting the 40, 50, 62, and 80hz datapoints?


"My comment about CHT was over a claimed 1w winisd generated graph of their single 18" that he posted in comparison to an lms and a mal-x. It looked too good to be true so I ran some simulations of my own and I could not meet the 1w output claimed with any driver I tried. Even an AE TD18+H was a full db or so short. An 18 sound 21nlw9600 with a bl^2/re >310 and 33% more cone area was falling short too. I find that hard to believe out of a custom Eminence driver. I have nothing wrong with Eminence, they make good value, American made stuff and are not too far from me but they aren't known for breaking the mold exactly if you mean what I mean. Hence the unobtanium driver comments. If a $900 italian 21" pro woofer with a neo motor providing 3x the motor force of a typical sub driver can't even match it..."


which graphic are you referring ricci?
craigsub's numbers look okay to me, more or less. he is neither using a high xmax driver (which is going to reduce top end sensitivity), nor a high powered motor (which is going to reduce low end sensitivity).

my guess is the 1w1m looks something like this. the corner might be a little sharper, but something in the ballpark. what is too good to believe?


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Old 01-04-2011, 12:26 PM
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hamtor, nice!

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Old 01-04-2011, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I think his issue was more with the discrepancy of the numbers provided than anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamtor View Post

sorry for the off topic, but karaokeequipment dot com do now have the Marathon 5050 in stock for $645.

I'd like to see how this amp holds up with more people putting it through its paces. Mine arrive tomorrow, though I paid a bit more.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:36 PM
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Does anyone know if that karaokeequipment site is a safe, reliable one? It kind of looks ... umm... meh. It's only got 33 ratings on google and about 40 on Amazon. $650 is damn good price though. I could use one or two of these amps.

EDIT: Whew! It comes with an $80 ground shipping as the lowest cost shipping method. Ouch!

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Old 01-04-2011, 12:39 PM
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Scott,

That is where I got my Marathon from. Had it within two days and no issues with that site-company (only speaking for my order).

When I ordered, it was 626.50 for amp, 43.94 for shipping, 670.44 total.

James
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:42 PM
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Cool! Argh! That means I may have decide between getting one of these or the Dayton measurement rig when I get from Vega$ this weekend. Let's cross our fingers that Scooter wins a good prize at the slots this year so he can get both.

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Old 01-04-2011, 12:56 PM
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notnyt, you need more fanfare for your epic build.


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Old 01-04-2011, 01:00 PM
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Oh snap, LTD! You're just asking for Sherv to come in here and give ya a beatdown.

Hehehe, that is a pretty beastly setup though.

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Old 01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
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the sherv is awesome...i was just thinking that 8 maelstroms deserved something more than notnyt's very understated thread title. ;-)

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Old 01-04-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

bosso, thanks for providing references.

one thing that doesn't look quite right are the "stars" in your plot, craig's claimed cea #'s. you reference this site:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...4&postcount=26
on that site are only 20, 25, and 32hz datapoints, then average results everywhere else. how are you getting the 40, 50, 62, and 80hz datapoints?

You have to extrapolate the omitted numbers from the numbers Chase has provided.

For example, when he posted the first graph in K-Dub's DIY thread and took his comments to me to PM, I mentioned that it was quite clever of him to have included a 20-63 Hz average, but no 63 Hz number:

Quote:


15 Hz .........................101 dB
20 Hz .........................106 dB
31.5 Hz ......................114 dB
50 Hz .........................121 dB
20-63 Hz avg ..............117 dB
20-31.5 Hz average .....110 dB
40-63 Hz average ........121 dB

Since he provided the 20, 31.5 and 50 Hz numbers (106 + 114 + 121 = 341) and the 20-63 Hz average (117), then, 117*4 = 468 - 341, tells you that the 63 Hz number has to be 127dB.

Since he also provided the 40-63 Hz average, but no 40 or 63 Hz numbers, once you have the 63 Hz number from above and the 50 Hz number is provided, you extrapolate the 40 Hz number, which has to be 116-117dB.

The CEA #s, except for the number for 20 Hz, are just the max #s +4dB.

The CEA #s get a bit interesting. There are no numbers given for 40, 50, 63, 80 or 100 Hz, yet the average is given.

If you take the 40, 50 and 63 Hz max numbers, add +4dB for CEA #s, then attempt to extrapolate the 80 and 100 Hz numbers from his posted average, the 80 and 100 Hz numbers would have to drop below the 63 Hz number, which, given his posted models, FR and close-mic, does not jive.

That's why I only posted the 80 Hz star and stopped there. I, like Josh, simply do not believe Craig's models, graphs or numbers. It's not because I think Craig is lying, it's because I have asked him for clarification several times and he has refused, the data is a moving target and it doesn't jive with reality.

Bottom line is that the 63 Hz number appears to be either a) a made up number, or b) a rather unexpected peak in the FR of the sub.

Another subject that has sent Craig into calling folks liars and accusing them of posting "made up graphs" is the fact that his own models show the CS to be down -17 to -19dB at 20 Hz, yet he claims a different (lesser) number.

Since the claimed L/T'd response is 23-200 Hz (+/- 3dB), and that the L/T provides +5dB of boost, that would mean that the CS naked response would have to be only down -5dB at 20Hz.

He has subsequently said that he uses the incorrect method of taking the -6dB down point at both ends of the FR, calling the -3dB point of that trace '0'dB to get to 23 Hz, which is in reality the -6dB down point, not -3dB.

Even with that distinction, the naked response would still have to be down no more than -14dB at 20 Hz to make his FR real.

BTW, in your posted guesstimate model, you have the response down -18dB at 20 Hz, which would put the FR with +5dB of L/T boost down -6dB above 30 Hz, so don't let Chase see it.

Bosso
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Scott,

That is where I got my Marathon from. Had it within two days and no issues with that site-company (only speaking for my order).

When I ordered, it was 626.50 for amp, 43.94 for shipping, 670.44 total.

James

Yep, you got the best deal I know of, and it's good to know that they deliver.

So, how has it performed in your system?

Bosso
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:38 PM
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Bosso,

I have never had a issue with it. I know I am not pushing it hard at all. One AV15H on each channel.

James
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I think his issue was more with the discrepancy of the numbers provided than anything.



I'd like to see how this amp holds up with more people putting it through its paces. Mine arrive tomorrow, though I paid a bit more.

True. Numbers, changing graphs and errant posts regarding how the L/T's sub works.

I agree. Can't wait to get the input on how your amps hold up driving that much displacement.

I would have zero doubts except for the owner saying he was having "some parts upgraded".

Bosso
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:56 PM
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i'm going to give you props here bosso. the skill to use numbers to "see" into other numbers is something that i do all day, but it is a very rare skill. not 1 in 50 folks would "see" into the data as you have. very, very, good. however, you are only half way home...

the second step is understanding the system that is generating the data that you are looking at. the amp in the craigsub has eq, so now all driver models go out the window. this brings together the driver model with the measured model and explains all of your apparent divergences in frequency response.

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Old 01-04-2011, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'm going to give you props here bosso. the skill to use numbers to "see" into other numbers is something that i do all day, but it is a very rare skill. not 1 in 50 folks would "see" into the data as you have. very, very, good. however, you are only half way home...

the second step is understanding the system that is generating the data that you are looking at. the amp in the craigsub has eq, so now all driver models go out the window. this brings together the driver model with the measured model and explains all of your apparent divergences in frequency response.

except his CEA numbers don't match up with his close mic numbers
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:22 PM
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"except his CEA numbers don't match up with his close mic numbers"

step back and think about that for a second notnyt...

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Old 01-04-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'm going to give you props here bosso. the skill to use numbers to "see" into other numbers is something that i do all day, but it is a very rare skill. not 1 in 50 folks would "see" into the data as you have. very, very, good. however, you are only half way home...

the second step is understanding the system that is generating the data that you are looking at. the amp in the craigsub has eq, so now all driver models go out the window. this brings together the driver model with the measured model and explains all of your apparent divergences in frequency response.

Just curious, but why would CEA2010 limited numbers be impacted by any amount of EQ? Isn't a sub going to have the same max CEA2010 numbers regardless of EQ?

 

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