Automatically Powering on Pro Amps via Relay (guide w/ pics) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 06:01 AM
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After you find out that you really don't have a warranty, I would recommend opening the monster to check the simple things. I would check things like the circuit breaker.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a voltage spike damaged the monster? I would expect monster to design more robustly for an external port...
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post #182 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 11:37 AM
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BassthatHZ,

I have a couple APC units with true sine wave. In fact standing immediately next to my home theater rack is a APC 2200VA SMART-UPS. I use it to power the sump pump that sits underneath my equipment rack - in case of a power failure - the APC UPS will act as a battery backup for the sump. I don't have the majority of my home theater gear plugged into it because in a power outage I didn't want other equipment bleeding off power from the UPS backup in the event of a power outage. The only component that is plugged into the 2200 UPS is the projector, just so that in the event of a power outage my projector can be turned off normally. I suppose I could get one of those 15amp smart sensing power supplies and plug it into the UPS and run the majority of my gear off the UPS instead of buying a new monster unit if I can't get this DIY attempt sorted out.

Between the Smart UPS (true sine wave) and the Monster Power unit the differences are negligible or indistinguishable for visible or audio differences between the two - I've tried both. I've tried quite a few different UPS backups, and couple different power conditioners. The HTS 5100 still has it's place IMO. If I had plugged in the DIY 20 amp switch to the 2200 VA UPS and fried it, or fried the pre-amp - I'd be out a LOT more money. redface.gif

With your use of the cyberpower UPS - do you just manually turn all your gear on? The HTS 5100 allows me to turn off all the devices that bleed electricity with a single power switch (HD-DVD player is all that's left I think - but it also powered off my mic2200 and Symetrix 551E unit - so it just saves hitting extra power buttons). It also allowed me to set turn on delays for various devices so they don't all turn on at once - which occasionally tripped my breaker before I used the HTS unit. Peace of mind alone is probably worth me buying another. I remember watching a movie during a storm one time. The whole house's power went off. I happened to be looking at the Monster Power HTS unit when the power came back on a few moments later. The LED readout said a couple hundred volts instead of the standard ~120 volt reading. This is while all my equipment was trying to come back on. I remember thinking - Man I'm glad that thing is in place so my equipment isn't getting that surge of voltage. It didn't die. Just alarmed for a second.

As to the wall wart idea - if the voltage spike that killed the monster through the trigger wire (assuming) were to happen back to the AC to DC 12 volt wall wart plugged into the monster unit or even plugged into the APC UPS - would that have fried anything? Or just fried the wall wart? I have some of those wall warts sitting around I could use. But I would rather throw the whole project in the trash than risk damaging anything else.

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post #183 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 11:57 AM
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Sorry about your gear...... that sucks.

If you do decide to give it another go......Notnyt mentioned earlier in this thread that an inline fuse on the trigger line would add the extra protection so something like this won't happen.

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post #184 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post

After you find out that you really don't have a warranty, I would recommend opening the monster to check the simple things. I would check things like the circuit breaker.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a voltage spike damaged the monster? I would expect monster to design more robustly for an external port...

Still dead this morning - so yeah - I'll pop the top off and see if it's anything obvious. Better this unit than the other equipment. eek.gif
$256 for a signature edition off of B&G photo:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/410411-REG/Monster_Power_109099_Signature_Series_HTS_5100.html

Amazon warehouse has a non signature edition (like mine) open box, used like new for $180.

I'm not sure I see the value in something like the APC power conditioner bassthathz listed over the monsterpower unit. Seems I'd be dropping feature set for about the same money. I like APC stuff. I also like Monster stuff. Monster gets a bad rapp because it's overpriced, and they do stupid stuff like sue everyone who has monster in their name. But the equipment itself is a respectable quality. When you get it on a sale, at a decent price, it's hard to go wrong. I've never bought anything with the Monster name on it and thought - well this is surprisingly junk. Their cables are great (overpriced) their AV gear I've dealt with has all been great quality (admittedly overpriced). But for all the fuss - I'd feel comfortable buying most anything they sell, if I price search and get a good value on it. It's an established and known quality level - IMO.

The worst part is trying to pull this thing out of my rack. I'll have to take a lot out to get to it. frown.gif

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post #185 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 12:21 PM
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Arch...with regard to your sump pump. Rather than having your sump plugged into the APC...which is only good with its battery for so long (otherwise, just protection for pump)...why not have a water-powered back-up sump installed?
Power goes out and you are not home, who cares...main water supply powers the back-up. No worries.
Liberty Pumps makes the SJ10 SumpJet. Affordable and dependable. Another good one is the Water Commander...but that is a wee bit more $.
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post #186 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah450 View Post

Arch...with regard to your sump pump. Rather than having your sump plugged into the APC...which is only good with its battery for so long (otherwise, just protection for pump)...why not have a water-powered back-up sump installed?
Power goes out and you are not home, who cares...main water supply powers the back-up. No worries.
Liberty Pumps makes the SJ10 SumpJet. Affordable and dependable. Another good one is the Water Commander...but that is a wee bit more $.

I'm not familiar with those? I'll have to look into them for the next replacement - that definitely sound like a better means of ensuring a dry basement! Better than this pic - which was my basement the first big rain of my home ownership in 2004. Yes that is a subwoofer in the water. eek.gif


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post #187 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 12:43 PM
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Aw, that sucks!
You leave your electric-powered sump in place.
The water-powered sump becomes a back-up.
It is awesome peace of mind (and cheap insurance for finished basements) having a secondary system not relying on electricity or battery power...never mind no maintenance!
I can not fathom why more people have not happened upon these.
The Liberty Pumps hardware is only about $130...plus your time to install (if you can do plumbing) and materials....or plus the cost of a plumber to install.
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post #188 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 01:03 PM
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Powering relays with triggers is very risky and generally unadvisable.

At least, I'd personally... never do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

BassThatHz,

As to the wall wart idea - if the voltage spike that killed the monster through the trigger wire (assuming) were to happen back to the AC to DC 12 volt wall wart plugged into the monster unit or even plugged into the APC UPS - would that have fried anything? Or just fried the wall wart? I have some of those wall warts sitting around I could use. But I would rather throw the whole project in the trash than risk damaging anything else.

Especially without a fuse and/or diode, each relay can consume 1-6 watts RMS, probably overloaded the trigger circuit and it blew the entire Monster 5100 (WOW? eek.gifconfused.gif)
Some people might get away with it and others won't, luck of the draw of a bad design.

You'd just fry the wall-wart (unlikely), your relay should specify the amperes, as should the wall-wart, make sure the wart is beefier and then it won't blow.
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I have a couple APC units with true sine wave. The HTS 5100 allows me to turn off all the devices that bleed electricity with a single power switch.
Good, keep using them and get more of them, a sinewave UPS will protect your gear better than the monster. You can use the monster as a delay activator afterwards if you need that extra feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

If I had plugged in the DIY 20 amp switch to the 2200 VA UPS and fried it, or fried the pre-amp - I'd be out a LOT more money. redface.gif
yes, NEVER do that.
Never plug a pro-amp into a UPS (unless it's a 20 or 30amp rated UPS. and one-to-one sounds expensive anyway.)

It should go like this:
120v line (15amps etc)->Sinwave UPS->Triggered Monster 5100/power conditioner->wall-wart & other low-power equipment (pre-amp, projector, DAC/DSPs)
120v line (20amps etc)->(optional 30amp Sinwave UPS/power conditioner)->relay->pro-amp #1
120v line (20amps etc)->(optional 30amp Sinwave UPS/power conditioner)->relay->pro-amp #2
120v line (20amps etc)->(optional 30amp Sinwave UPS/power conditioner)->relay->pro-amp #3
you get the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

do you just manually turn all your gear on?

I'm working on it.

You can check out my relay build thread for full details.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457157/diy-home-automation/0_100

But in summary:



14 20amp rated sockets and 7 20amp rated switches, and ten 30amp rated romex wires, and eight zero-x'ing 50amp solid-state relays, 16 USB controlled controller relays, powered by an array of wall warts, all in a custom rack mountable box, and controlled by custom software written by me.

The 20amp rated switches are there just as a master-cutoff, in case of an emergency or if I go on a long vacation and don't want it to be live wall power.

I'll probably put fuses on the KM relay outputs too, just to be extra safe and protect the upstream USB HTPC port etc etc.
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post #189 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Powering relays with triggers is very risky and generally unadvisable.

Utter bollocks. Just do it properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

each relay can consume 1-6 watts RMS, probably overloaded the trigger circuit and it blew the entire Monster 5100 (WOW? eek.gifconfused.gif)
Some people might get away with it and others won't, luck of the draw of a bad design.
More rubbish. The Monster 5100 manual states 12V@100mA which is 12W, but even if using another unit, ensure that the load of the relay coils does not exceed the rating of the source. Relay datasheets specify the coil current draw and coil voltage so it's simply a product of the two to determine power or sum the coil currents as you usually know the voltage (12V) - not particularly difficult and basic design. SS relays generally draw almost nothing for the trigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

It should go like this:
120v line (15amps etc)->Sinwave UPS->Triggered Monster 5100/power conditioner->wall-wart & other low-power equipment (pre-amp, projector, DAC/DSPs)
120v line (20amps etc)->(optional 30amp Sinwave UPS/power conditioner)->relay->pro-amp #1
120v line (20amps etc)->(optional 30amp Sinwave UPS/power conditioner)->relay->pro-amp #2
120v line (20amps etc)->(optional 30amp Sinwave UPS/power conditioner)->relay->pro-amp #3
If the pro amps are subs amps, then the UPS is a complete waste of money and of dubious value for most other amps as well. Remember too that SS amps are not 100% efficient so if you don't account for that in the size of the UPS/regenerator, you'll simply throttle your amp's power capability.
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post #190 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

The Monster 5100 manual states 12V@100mA which is 12W

So he drew more than 12watts through the Monster? and/or the coil kickback power finished it off?
Something killed it...

Wouldn't that be 1.2watts or did you mean 1A?
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post #191 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

So he drew more than 12watts through the Monster? and/or the coil kickback power finished it off?
Something killed it...
Sure but not taking due diligence in design (too much current draw for supply) and/or not reducing flyback by a simple and known technique is no reason not to use an AVR etc as trigger supply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Wouldn't that be 1.2watts or did you mean 1A?
Yes, 1.2W, my typo. Sometimes my keyboard doesn't display . ' ". Not sure why ATM. Should have proofread.
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post #192 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

.....if I were you I'd buy a AC-DC 12v cell phone charger wall-wart to power the trigger and have that powered from the triggered conditioner.

Could you provide a more specific example of this hookup, and how it would work?
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post #193 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Could you provide a more specific example of this hookup, and how it would work?

He said he had a:

1) pre-amp connected to the Monster via a trigger
2) and the Monster trigger connected to the relay

Instead of #2, it would be a 120v wart on the Monster and wart outputted to the relay. #1 would stay the same.

This is vastly different than what I'm building, I'm not using any of my triggers or any of the delay circuits in my conditioners. (I'm making my own via software.)
In fact I could easily make a software based ABX switcher like the manually operated blind amp shootout light switch, fully automated and randomized if desired with one KM controller board; the computer would not make any "accidents".
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post #194 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

He said he had a:

1) pre-amp connected to the Monster via a trigger
2) and the Monster trigger connected to the relay

Instead of #2, it would be a 120v wart on the Monster and wart outputted to the relay. #1 would stay the same.

This is vastly different than what I'm building, I'm not using any of my triggers or any of the delay circuits in my conditioners. (I'm making my own via software.)
In fact I could easily make a software based ABX switcher like the manually operated blind amp shootout light switch, fully automated and randomized if desired with one KM controller board; the computer would not make any "accidents".

I see. Much different than the standard setup many of us are using. Thanks for the explanation.
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post #195 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 07:56 PM
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If the 100ma spec is correct I think that alone may have been the problem. I helped Popalock make 2 of these triggered outlets and it ended up being too much load for his high end Pioneer receiver. The receiver displayed an error message when both were plugged in, even though they were plugged into separate trigger outputs. I have an extra of these relays that I will test at 12V to see how much current it pulls.

You could do what I do, use an SSR to create a triggered outlet. I trigger mine with USB (5 v) from my Onkyo 818 receiver because it doesn't offer a zone 1 trigger. The rear USB port turns the outlet on and off immediately. For this situation I would trigger it from 12V from your Pre-pro to provide power to a 12V power source. That power source would then trigger as many Omeron mechanical relays as you desire. I have used a SSR for more than the last year to trigger my EP4000. I will be creating a 20amp relay triggered outlet this week using this method of an external 12V source (wart as BTH calls it) that gets it power from SSR outlet.
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post #196 of 382 Old 01-26-2014, 08:17 PM
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According to the datasheet, the Omron G7L-1A-TUBJ-CB-DC12 consumes 158ma (1.9w)

 

 

 

The monster power conditioner can only supply 100ma from the 12v dc out.

 

 

It would be a good idea to update the first post regarding how much current the omron consumes so people don't overload their triggers.

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post #197 of 382 Old 01-27-2014, 07:39 AM
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When I was responding to this thread before, I looked through the HTS 5100 manual and I misread the 12V out as having 300ma capability. I should have kept flipping until I got to the specification page.

I still think it is ridiculous that a commercially available device would be capable of self destructing from over current on an output like this, that doesn't impress me.



About that water powered sump pump, that sounds like an interesting idea if you have city water. I am on well water out here so that wouldn't work for me. I am curious if the sump pump actually works off of a computer style battery backup and for how long it is able to work. I think I tried to run my sump pump from my Cyberpower 1500 battery backup several years ago and it wouldn't run it. They make battery backed up sump pumps that I would think would be better than running the main sump pump through a battery backup. I would be worried that if you only have 1 sump pump and it is only getting its power from the battery backup, what happens if that battery backup device fails?
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post #198 of 382 Old 01-27-2014, 08:11 AM
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NathanJ,

You are far more electrically inclined than I am - I'm sure. However, I was told, and read online that sump motors - electric motors for that matter - don't work well on typical square wave based Cheaper UPS units (like the Cyberpower). They require a true sine wave to function effectively supposedly. The APC 2200 VA unit I have is one of the big huge black towers with multiple batteries that from what I understand is a true online UPS - everything runs off the batteries all the time - and it generates true sine waves. I might be wrong - that's just what I understood. It does for sure run the sump fine. I tested it once during a storm (my sump runs often in any storm), unplugged the UPS and it easily would last quite a while on the APC unit's charge and functioned just like normal. I plugged it back in after 30 minutes. The sump had run many times - and it was still at half charge or better. My only fear would be multiple storms where the power failed early on, or the pump itself failing. For the typical storm brief blackout I think I'm covered. I do not have a backup unit. eek.gif I did the waterproofing work myself, (I worked at B-Dry basement waterproofing for about 1.5 years about 12 years ago and learned how to do it with that job), and it's never leaked since I did the waterproofing. I occassionaly just test the sump to make sure all is in order.

As to the monster power HTS 5100 - odd that page 17 shows 300ma and specs page shows 100ma.

If it truly is 100ma - I'm picking up that it's clear it should have failed because it would have been putting too much of a load on the DC output? Why would that have made the whole unit fail though instead of just DC output mechanism itself? Is it unlikely that this failure was simply coincidental? I've got an engineering friend in KC I'm going to ask his thoughts on the matter, but I know that's a skillset you have as well. How can I sufficiently test my 20amp switching device to ensure it's not going to blow something else up?

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post #199 of 382 Old 01-27-2014, 08:14 AM
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Archaea - Give me a call later this afternoon/tonight and I'll walk you through some troubleshooting.
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post #200 of 382 Old 01-27-2014, 08:16 AM
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SWEET!

Thanks Andrew!

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post #201 of 382 Old 01-27-2014, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

According to the datasheet, the Omron G7L-1A-TUBJ-CB-DC12 consumes 158ma (1.9w)

The data sheet was dead on. My relay draws between about 156-158mA at 12V. It measured 76Ω. I also see that the original post was updated to show this data.
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post #202 of 382 Old 01-28-2014, 10:34 AM
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Can someone tell me...

If I build one of these using a mechanical ac relay and power the coil with the switched 120v receptacle on the back of my receiver, do I still need/is it still advisable to have a snubber just like with mechanical dc relays? Or do the differences between ac relays and dc relays and/or the differences between ac and dc themselves somehow negate that need? And if it is still advisable, am I correct that it would have to be an RC snubber, since a flyback diode would short the coil for half of each ac cycle?

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post #203 of 382 Old 01-28-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Onkyo has trigger on zone 1 in the upper echelon. And assignable triggers at the top models.

Pay to play - that's their motto - even though it would cost them nothing to help the consumer out and assign amp trigger by default to zone 1 instead of 2 or 3 (which has many fewer use cases).

yes, I agree, it stinks.

I didn't think any onkyo's had zone 1 triggers? I have a 3009 witch is high end, and I still have to use zone 2 to power on my amps. Do you know what models have it?

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post #204 of 382 Old 01-28-2014, 11:03 AM
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^^^never mind...I jumped the gun on that post. Seems it was answered a page later, I didn't read all the way through.

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post #205 of 382 Old 02-01-2014, 05:05 PM
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hahah...well I finally got around to opening up the Monster HTS-5100 and whatever wasn't wrong with it before is now DEFINATELY gone south. I decided I'd try to find how far in I could trace the AC power in with a cheapo Harbor Freight multimeter to see if I could see where the trouble was. First contact points I tested - FLASHBANG -
Then the Magic Smoke...

Me astounded. What did I just do?

To the trash bin with this thing now --- shame --- the inside of these things are like a work of art!

What's worse is the price on amazon went up $45 in the last week. frown.gif


In the close up I touched the blue and the black contacts with the multimeter leads -- then BAM. (you can see the burnt board caused by my probing to the right of the blue wire solder point contact)






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post #206 of 382 Old 02-01-2014, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Please tell me your multimeter was in voltage mode and you weren't in amperage mode.
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post #207 of 382 Old 02-01-2014, 05:12 PM
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ACV 200 on the dial. That should have been the right setting right? Multimeter still seems to turn on and work - despite the severely melted contact points. tongue.gif



Mercy - look at that lead - it is eaten off! It used to look like the typical multimeter contact point with the sharp pencil lead type end - no damage whatsoever before. Glad that wasn't my finger taking that hit!

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post #208 of 382 Old 02-01-2014, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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You have it plugged into the wrong position. It should be in the spot with V. You hooked it up to the amps port which measures amps by conducting THROUGH the meter. You basically just shorted out the unit through your multimeter. Your fuse in it is probably blown too.

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post #209 of 382 Old 02-02-2014, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

ACV 200 on the dial. That should have been the right setting right? Multimeter still seems to turn on and work - despite the severely melted contact points.

You shouldn't even be messing around with this stuff - you don't know enough to be safe.
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post #210 of 382 Old 02-02-2014, 11:18 AM
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I'll own that. But I'll learn from mistakes, and the HTS unit was already dead anyway, I just put the final nail in the coffin. I'll admit with a sly smile and a bit red faced that I switched the red lead to the wrong position before the initial test thinking I wanted to test for ac power and seeing that spot labeled ADC. (Passively thinking that probably meant AC or DC test position.)

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