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post #91 of 117 Old 07-19-2011, 03:51 PM
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Something like this measurement would be easier to analyze. You may actually have all the measurements still in HOLM. If you are like me, they are not labeled very well though. There's a lot of information in a graph like this. The x-over point, and slopes are shown. You can see how the woofer and tweeter add near the x-over frequency. Diffraction bumps, and dips show in the measurements. It's just easier to get a good feel for what is going on.

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post #92 of 117 Old 07-20-2011, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a way in Holm, to tell it to combine them? I have the filtered responses of each that I can adjust for a 5db scale.

I like 1db scales if Holm would offer it. The more refined and raw the better. That's why at first glance, it looks like the Apprenticeships measure really badly
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post #93 of 117 Old 07-20-2011, 03:47 PM
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How do you think this might sound?

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post #94 of 117 Old 07-20-2011, 03:51 PM
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Or how about this one?

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post #95 of 117 Old 07-20-2011, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Is there a way in Holm, to tell it to combine them?

Yes, but when I tried it, it didn't work well.
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post #96 of 117 Old 07-20-2011, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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They will sound the same

I do agree that to much scaling causes you to see imperfections that aren't actually important. I just sometimes see great looking measurements, or models. Then you look closer and each increment is 10db or something. And the chart is so small, you can't tell what it's doing.
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post #97 of 117 Old 07-20-2011, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

They will sound the same

I do agree that to much scaling causes you to see imperfections that aren't actually important. I just sometimes see great looking measurements, or models. Then you look closer and each increment is 10db or something. And the chart is so small, you can't tell what it's doing.

Yes, they are the same. One is much easier to grasp though.
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post #98 of 117 Old 09-30-2011, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd like some advice on trying a different XO. I've done some more thinking and modeling. Normally I'd just wire it up and try, but I'd actually have to order parts to do it.

Is there an advantage trying this very nicely modeled LR2. It has a smooth power response, smoother impedance, and, well, it's LR2.



My fear is the breakup on the woofer around 5.5khz is more prominent. Also, the XO will strain the tweeter more and doesn't have a shunt resistor thus possibly exciting the tweeter Fs.

I know LR2s are suppose to be tough to come by. Am I living in a dream land thinking this will sound good, or are these drivers extended enough they could pull it off. Seems like such extention is a little wasted with my current LR4 configurations.

Thanks for any help. I know this forum isn't into this kind of stuff, but this forum pushes me more than the other redundant forums around.
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post #99 of 117 Old 10-01-2011, 12:13 PM
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I can't say if it will sound any better or not. My guess is not better, not worse either. Possibly it will sound a little different though. I usually try multiple x-overs, and then decided which one I prefer. Sometimes I have no preference. Did you try any notch filters with PCD? A notch at the woofer peak could help, and be made part of the overall rolloff.
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post #100 of 117 Old 10-01-2011, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Kind of the answer I expected, but hoped for something more cut and dry. So you don't believe lower order XOers have some kind of magic?

I've never heard an LR2. When I first modeled I couldn't an LR2 work. Maybe I'll order the parts next time I order for something else. Just don't know when that'll be.

Thanks!
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post #101 of 117 Old 10-07-2012, 08:52 PM
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Dear friend....I want to build my first pair of speakers.Thank you for sharing your project with all of us...One thing that is not clear to me are the changes
You made on the crossovers......may I know what is the definitive crossover network? Did you change the internal volume of the enclosure?

In some of your last posts...looks like you were wishing to make changes.

Were you able to acomplish that? Did you change anything on the final crossover? Hummm
I am Just wondering before I place my order in the parts. That's all.

Thanks for your understanding and help.


Gio.
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post #102 of 117 Old 10-07-2012, 08:52 PM
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Dear friend....I want to build my first pair of speakers.Thank you for sharing your project with all of us...One thing that is not clear to me are the changes
You made on the crossovers......may I know what is the definitive crossover network? Did you change the internal volume of the enclosure?

In some of your last posts...looks like you were wishing to make changes.

Were you able to acomplish that? Did you change anything on the final crossover? Hummm
I am Just wondering before I place my order in the parts. That's all.

Thanks for your understanding and help.


Gio.
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post #103 of 117 Old 10-07-2012, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Geovanney,

This is a blast from the past. Thanks. This was my first fully documented and measured design. I got lucky because even a couple years later with way more practice and better measurement abilities, these are actually pretty good.

I gotta ask thou, what are your goals. This build is for someone lacking tools and needs it small.

The posted cross over was the final cross over. For the box, I eventually went sealed and always used my sub. If you don't have a sub then I'd go bigger and lower tuned. Like 13L tuned to 42hz or something.

If you're interested in an MTM version I designed on and entered it in a contest held in new York called Iron Driver. It was awarded 1st place for best sound. It does cost more though. And it's bigger. If you tell me you goals, I might be able to show you some other options.

Thanks again and enjoy your build.
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post #104 of 117 Old 10-09-2012, 12:00 AM
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Jesus....I can believe.......... I missed you for a tiny frog hair. I saw you online !


Anyway......basically...I want to integrate based on the reviews The Vifa XT25TG30-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter according to troels Gravensen..this tweeter kick ass. Could it be possible for you to help me out with the tweeter Crossover to integrate well with the Peerless 830656 5-1/4" Paper Cone SDS Woofer ?


Wait....wait ..wait..a minute..........


HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS !!!


YOUR MTM VERSION LOOKS AWESOME !!!!


WELL......I THINK I WILL GO FOR THE MTM VERSION.....BUT...I ALREADY HAVE THE Vifa XT25TG30-04 1" TWEETERS.......HERE THE PARAMETERS:


Tweeter: Vifa XT25TG30-04

Specifications:
• Power handling: 90 watts RMS/140 watts max
TS Parameters:
Znom 4 ohm
Re 3.0 ohm
Le@1kHz - mH
fs 500 Hz
Qms 2.50
Qes 0.71
Qts 0.55
Mms .30 g
Cms - mm/N
Sd 5.4 cm2
BL 2.5 Tm
Vas 0.02 ltrs
Xmax 0.5 mm peak
VC Ø 25 mm
Sensitivity
2.83V / 1m 91.5 dB
Nom. Power DIN 140 W
Magnet weight 240 g



50 % FOR MOVIES 50 % FOR MUSIC ARE MY GOALS. LETS MAKE THESE BABIES!


WHERE CAN I GET THE PLANS FOR THE BOXES??? CROSSOVERS?? BY THE WAY...AFTER THE COMPETITION ...DID YOU TWEAK ANYTHING BASED ON CRITICS?


THANKS A LOT FRIEND.

GEOVANNY.
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post #105 of 117 Old 10-09-2012, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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So then you saw this thread: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?233978-Iron-Driver-Overall-Best-Sounding-Speaker-Design-Details

I had a look around at the spec sheets and zaph's site about the difference between the 30 and the 60. Looks to me like the xt25tg30 should work in that design.

The cabinet details are down in post 11 of that thread. It's a pretty big box. If you're using a subwoofer, I'd make it smaller and sealed. Try and keep the baffle the same though. If you're a member on PE tech talk I can help you over there on this also.

The MTM definitely has much more output than this. It's really good for the money. The $200 cap on the competition made me have to get a very high $/performance.

This MT design couldn't be used with the xt25 unless I redid a bunch of stuff, which I'm to busy for right now, sorry. Maybe down the road if you want some surrounds I could.
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post #106 of 117 Old 10-09-2012, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I realized I have the files to check out an MT version and so I posted it on Tech Talk. So you can do an MT using the 830656 and xt25tg30-04.
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post #107 of 117 Old 10-11-2012, 08:16 PM
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Sorry for being a pain....I want a clarification ....


when you said...MT version...... is the same one as the MTM version? Because.... I remember seeing those towers with a vented port tube.Now ....you telling me about a enclosure with no vent port So now it uses slot port ?

I really appreciate your time and the sharing of your project....please have a little patient with me...I also have some questions:


I saw good critics on your project MTM.....They also made some suggestions as well...I remember seeing something about the vent port location somewhere. May I know the main reason why you change from vent port to slot port ??? is there is any technical differences? what about the sound? Any changes of sound by changing the vent port to slot port? Thanks in advance pal. I will get the parts as soon as i get this info. I also hope you can keep tweaking your creations for future upgrades....if you like me....we are always in pursuit of perfect audio nirvana.

Please allow me to share also what I have accomplish with my projects too.

Here ..click and paste here for a youtube video of my towers. I tweaked them to my my personal taste.I been so bless with golden ears.....they never lie to me. I have listen ...Monitor audio.Totem. B&W and Paradigm monitors.


I would die for a video musical of your creations the MTM Brother.


here the link of my towers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCHb3p6wgUI




Nice to meet you Ryan...is an Honor to get to know someone like you in this audio community ...


Gio.
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post #108 of 117 Old 10-12-2012, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Gio,

I don't mind the questions.

The last post here: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?233978-Iron-Driver-Overall-Best-Sounding-Speaker-Design-Details

Shows the TM version using the XT25 tweeter. So basically, same look and size as this speaker in this thread, but with the xt25. If you have room and money for the MTM, it's better. I can draw up the MT cross over if you need.

A slot port was used on the MTM for looks and then I didn't have to buy a port. It also acts like extra bracing. The choice is yours.
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post #109 of 117 Old 10-14-2012, 03:25 PM
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Oh.....that would be nice if you can draw up the MTM crossovers...thanks for you help.
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post #110 of 117 Old 10-14-2012, 05:29 PM
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Ok..............I got the measurements of the MTM box and I apply them using BassBox 6 from parts express.( Software)


I am sure I apply the correct measurements (9" inches wide,23 inches High,14" inches Deep) with 1/2" material.


So...I get a 47.49 liters???? are you serious? According to the box schematics.....it should be 35 liters.




IN ORDER TO HAVE 35 LITERS OF INTERNAL VOLUME....I CAN GUARANTEE WITH EXTREME ACCURACY THAT THE CORRECT MEASUREMENTS ARE THE FALLOWING:

9" inches wide,23 inches High,10.32" inches Deep. SO....THE CORRECTION SHOULD BE APPLIED ON THE DEEP FROM 14" TO 10".32 INCHES.ALSO..THE WALL THICKNESS OF 2" DOES NOT AFFECT THE INTERNAL VOLUME....I ALSO USED 1/2 OFMATERIAL WITH SAME RESULTS.CHECK THE PICTURE OF THE MEASUREMENTS.


PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I AM MISSING SOMETHING HERE.....HUMMMMM. I MADE MY JBL HYBRID USING THE SAME SOFTWARE..AND LET ME TELL YOU..THEY SOUND VERY..VERY GOOD.


SO....I AM CONFIDENT THAT A CORRECTION NEED TO BE MADE IF WE ARE LOOKING FOR A BOX WITH A 35 LITER OF INTERNAL VOLUME. PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.



THANKS AS ALWAYS FOR SHARING YOUR PROJECT.


GIOXTREAM.
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post #111 of 117 Old 10-14-2012, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Gio,

I'm replying from my phone right now, traveling for work, so I'll draw the cross over once I'm settled.

I just calculated the box volume to be 36L before I subtracted for bracing and driver volume. Those are external dimensions. I'm not sure how bass box works, but I'm pretty sure those dimensions are right. Remember to use internal dimensions and to subtract port volume as well.
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post #112 of 117 Old 10-15-2012, 07:37 AM
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OK.

SO THE BOX IN REALITY NEEDS TO BE 36 LITERS BEFORE APPLYING DRIVERS ,PORTS AND CROSSOVERS?


CAN YOU CONFIRM THIS? THANK YOU VERY MUCH.OH ! BY THE WAY.....I WILL HAVE TO GO WITH YOUR THE TWEETER Vifa XT25BG60-04..THE ONE YOU SHOWED ME. HAS BETTER MOTOR STRUCTURE IN MY OPINION. BIG MAGNET. LOOKS VERY SOLID...VERY SIMILAR TO THE ONE I HAVE.




SHOULD I USE THESE CROSSOVERS ? HERE A PICTURE:










THANK YOU VERY MUCH.



GIO.
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post #113 of 117 Old 10-15-2012, 07:51 AM
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UPS !!!!!!!


THE CALCULATIONS OF YOUR BOX ARE WRONG .HERE IS THE PROVE:







I AM PRETTY SURE THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG...IT DOES NOT ADD UP...MAY I KNOW WHAT PROGRAM DID YOU USE TO MEASURE THE BOX VOLUME?


VERY WEIRD.
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post #114 of 117 Old 10-15-2012, 08:19 AM
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The external dimensions are 9"w x 23"h x 14"d, subtract for 1/2" material and you get 8"w x 22"h x 13"d internal.
8 * 22 * 13 = 2288 cu in,
2288 / 1728 = 1.324 cu ft,
1.324 * 28.317 = 37.49L

Port 8*1.5*7.5 = 90 cu in.
90 cu in = 1.47L

37.49 - 1.47 = 36.02L

I say tux is spot on.
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post #115 of 117 Old 10-15-2012, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks MTG. I'm pretty certain of the volume. Regardless, those dimensions were what was used to compete in the event.

If doing the MTM, that's the cross over to use. The one where the tweeter looks inappropriate wink.gif

If you do the TM, I'll draw up the new cross over values.
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post #116 of 117 Old 11-25-2012, 05:35 PM
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what about a YouTube video of those speakers.....that would be awesome...thanks in advance.
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post #117 of 117 Old 11-25-2012, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, I had one but just checked and it's gone. I don't remember deleting but I guess I did. Well, the speakers are taken apart now. Stole the parts for theory er projects. Sorry.

A video doesn't really tell you anything though. Not sure why people are so into them. I did it to show off the little 830656 cone excursions which verified its tuning and how hard I could push these little suckers.
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