Any Interest in Cheap "Flat Pack" Enclosures? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 777 Old 04-29-2011, 04:40 PM
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Just saying even from a CNC route two simple cross braces which slot into each other which is indented into all four sides is easier than several different little elements. That's all.

Ive been using sketchup for ages now and could come up with an idea it it helps. Bare in mind that the slot bracing would be different for a 15" and 18" driver. Would need to know the depth off the driver. Once I know that easy peazy!!!
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post #452 of 777 Old 04-29-2011, 05:32 PM
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This bracing wastes far less material and the triangulation should provide the most structural integrity. Slot bracing provides the most support to the areas that need it the least. This design will also allow the cuts to fit on a single sheet.

Trying to fit slot bracing around something like an LMS 5400 in an enclosure this size won't leave you with much support.


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post #453 of 777 Old 04-29-2011, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

Just saying even from a CNC route two simple cross braces which slot into each other which is indented into all four sides is easier than several different little elements. That's all.

Ive been using sketchup for ages now and could come up with an idea it it helps. Bare in mind that the slot bracing would be different for a 15" and 18" driver. Would need to know the depth off the driver. Once I know that easy peazy!!!

Draw up something and post it. It could be an alternative.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=293-666
Dimensions: Overall diameter 18.52", Cutout diameter 16.83", Depth 11.54"

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

This bracing wastes far less material and the triangulation should provide the most structural integrity. Slot bracing provides the most support to the areas that need it the least. This design will also allow the cuts to fit on a single sheet.

Trying to fit slot bracing around something like an LMS 5400 in an enclosure this size won't leave you with much support.

I'm not sure what slot bracing is, but I was thinking something along the lines of the bracing you have in your sub boxes just using dado joints.
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post #454 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 01:59 AM
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Here's my attempt. Just two pieces that slot into each other. I have made this out off 1" material as I wouldn't use anything thinner for that driver.

If you want the sketchup file just PM me. No worries if not.

cheers

Graham
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #455 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 06:53 AM
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wow....the statement monitors flat pack idea is very interesting. always wanted to listen to these speakers, since i've heard great reviews on them.

anyone has any idea how much the parts (drivers/x-overrs) cost to build a pair?
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post #456 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

Here's my attempt. Just two pieces that slot into each other. I have made this out off 1" material as I wouldn't use anything thinner for that driver.

If you want the sketchup file just PM me. No worries if not.

cheers

Graham

That actually looks awesome. Man you guys are so talented. I'm going to have to try playing with sketchup. It's such an awesome program.

That would definitely cost more to ship, but would probably be better suited for a more powerful 18" driver like the LMS 5400.

If possible, could you lay those components flat into a cutsheet for the CNC machine so Eric has an idea on how many sheets it would take? I think it would fit on 1 single sheet 48x96 sheet of BB, but I'm not sure.

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wow....the statement monitors flat pack idea is very interesting. always wanted to listen to these speakers, since i've heard great reviews on them.

anyone has any idea how much the parts (drivers/x-overrs) cost to build a pair?

Statement Monitor Link
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor.html
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post #457 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

Here's my attempt. Just two pieces that slot into each other. I have made this out off 1" material as I wouldn't use anything thinner for that driver.

If you want the sketchup file just PM me. No worries if not.

cheers

Graham


While it looks pretty, there are 3 problems with that design.

1) structural. The centers of the panels where they need the most bracing are not very well supported. While it looks nice, you may as well just glue strips to the sides as the only areas that is really bracing are the corners, which do not need it. The design I posted braces the side panels to each other, as well as to the back panel. This design only braces the side panels to the back.

2) assembly. You have to assemble the sides around the bracing as opposed to being able to build the sides and then install the bracing. This leave more room for error and panels not lining up perfectly.

3) waste. You cannot fit this on a single sheet of ply.


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post #458 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Statement Monitor Link
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor.html

thanks....

for anyone intrested, this is the BOM (bill of materials) for the statement monitors.

http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/St...1PE_MadBOM.pdf
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post #459 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 01:13 PM
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notnyt

Without nit picking too much. let me suggest you try building one of my designs. They you can critisise to your content. I have built all my subs that way and they are strong as an ox. Don't forget we are talking about a 20" ish square box and I have designed this out off 1" thick mdf which you should know is very solid stuff. Forgest about the driver because this won't rock at all. Bracing is very solid indeed. I am supported on the top, bottom and both sides. Where else do you do need support in a small box. Your bracing is fiddly and over the top. It doesn't support as much as mine and your design is made out off what looks like 0.25" thick material. My designs are thought through and very thorough. I tell you what, build my design and tell me it won't work work extremely well. Then come back and critisise me.

I awaite your build and comments.


cheers

Graham
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post #460 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think he was necessarily making fun of your design Graham. You made comments about his, he made comments about yours.

I'm not taking sides, but it has been proven that a better braced panel will always win over a thicker panel. There was discussion on the forum last year where some very intelligent people chimed in showing that 1/2" material properly braced would beat 1.5" material with less bracing.


I was doing some research 2 days ago and oddly enough there was a thread started here by LTD02 about bracing and the end design looked very close to what notnyt ended up with. Maybe that was intentional, I don't know. I need to find that thread.


There might be an option for some extra braces on the front baffle if this box can also be used for other smaller drivers like a ported 12".


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post #461 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 04:24 PM
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I don't think he was necessarily making fun of your design Graham. You made comments about his, he made comments about yours.

I'm not taking sides, but it has been proven that a better braced panel will always win over a thicker panel. There was discussion on the forum last year where some very intelligent people chimed in showing that 1/2" material properly braced would beat 1.5" material with less bracing.


I was doing some research 2 days ago and oddly enough there was a thread started here by LTD02 about bracing and the end design looked very close to what notnyt ended up with. Maybe that was intentional, I don't know. I need to find that thread.


There might be an option for some extra braces on the front baffle if this box can also be used for other smaller drivers like a ported 12".

I think Graham's design is better braced than Notnyt's design, but also uses more material. If you take Notnyt's design and add strips to the bracing, you'd end up something similar to Graham's design. Perpendicular strips brace the side walls in that they prevent the walls from flexing by essentially splitting the larger side panel into two smaller panels (more corners/strong points).

I need to take a closer look at both designs, but I think the design that considers an enclosure will be built front to back would be best. If Notnyt flipped the U-mounts around so they face backwards, it would be better. I'd imagine most people would build the box from the front baffle back, adding the sidewalls as well as top and bottom pieces. The last piece to go on should be the back panel. This way, any misalignment would be in the back, not the front.

Graham's design could be improved by extending the dado cuts all the way back so the bracing could just be slid into place from the back. Also the cuts in the cross bracing should be reversed so that they can slid into each other from the back. I just started playing around with sketchup and it's remarkably intuitive. I'll see if I can post a design by tomorrow.

Feel free to rip me and my design new one then.
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post #462 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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The last piece to go on should be the back panel. This way, any misalignment would be in the back, not the front.
I think most people would put the front baffle on last. I'm not sure it really matters though.

Here's a little bit of the thread I found:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t=brace&page=5


Notnyt's design is suppose to be very effective and uses the least amount of materials. Bracing corners is a waste of wood and internal volume, it doesn't actually help because corners are already stiffened. The problem in the above thread was the complexity of building it. With my EZS bracing idea, and notnyt's assembly idea, it makes it very easy to install. A plus was getting it all done with one sheet of wood as well. But there could be changes later, none of it is set in stone yet. These are just ideas to get priced out.

This design discussion should probably be done in the other thread to keep this one open for other flat pack ideas.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...bwoofer&page=4


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post #463 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H
I don't think he was necessarily making fun of your design Graham. You made comments about his, he made comments about yours.

I'm not taking sides, but it has been proven that a better braced panel will always win over a thicker panel. There was discussion on the forum last year where some very intelligent people chimed in showing that 1/2" material properly braced would beat 1.5" material with less bracing.

I was doing some research 2 days ago and oddly enough there was a thread started here by LTD02 about bracing and the end design looked very close to what notnyt ended up with. Maybe that was intentional, I don't know. I need to find that thread.

There might be an option for some extra braces on the front baffle if this box can also be used for other smaller drivers like a ported 12".
That bracing design is the best. Braces can flex, but you can't compress or expand them. The slot bracing looks nice, but doesn't really provide the structural support. To anywhere that isn't already strong. I come from an engineering background, so while I'm all for things looking pretty, I'd rather have them be strong.

Also, mdf may be heavy but it is nowhere near as strong as ply. Not even close.


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post #464 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
That bracing design is the best. Braces can flex, but you can't compress or expand them. The slot bracing looks nice, but doesn't really provide the structural support. To anywhere that isn't already strong. I come from an engineering background, so while I'm all for things looking pretty, I'd rather have them be strong.

Also, mdf may be heavy but it is nowhere near as strong as ply. Not even close.
Agreed. I also just looked at the bracing that John K from Zaph uses in his subwoofers. It's a very similar "diamond" shape like what you drew up.

I mentioned to you in an email during the designing that we could put 2 of those diamond shapes in each enclosure if we ever had to for dual opposed drivers, or slightly different designs. So we'll just wait on pricing right now.


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post #465 of 777 Old 04-30-2011, 11:56 PM
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Agreed. I also just looked at the bracing that John K from Zaph uses in his subwoofers. It's a very similar "diamond" shape like what you drew up.

I mentioned to you in an email during the designing that we could put 2 of those diamond shapes in each enclosure if we ever had to for dual opposed drivers, or slightly different designs. So we'll just wait on pricing right now.
I'll do something cool for dual opposed I have a few ideas in mind. I'll have to see how they work out with proper box volume drawn out and speakers modeled in the enclosure.


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Sweet, I look forward to your design Notnyt. You're designs are elegant. I'm just wondering why your existing LMS boxes don't employ your design philosophy?

I have an engineering background as well, but obviously I fail because I don't understand how your design is better braced than Graham's. Could you or someone else explain, because I really fail to see it. I know your designs brace the boxes weakest points, but from what I see, Graham's design braces the weakest points as well as some others. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to know where I went wrong.

Thank You
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post #467 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 12:11 AM
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Notnyt,

Is there some kind of a locking mechanism in place with the U shaped pieces and brace ends or are they held in place with adhesive only? If the latter, are you concerned with glue failure after time and use?

Chris
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post #468 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 12:18 AM
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Notnyt,

Is there some kind of a locking mechanism in place with the U shaped pieces and brace ends or are they held in place with adhesive only? If the latter, are you concerned with glue failure after time and use?

Chris
I've never seen PL fail


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post #469 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 12:22 AM
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^^^

Sorry, PL?
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post #470 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 12:36 AM
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^^^

Sorry, PL?
Polyurethane Construction Adhesive.
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post #471 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post
Sweet, I look forward to your design Notnyt. You're designs are elegant. I'm just wondering why your current boxes don't employ design philosophy?

I have an engineering background as well, but obviously I fail because I don't understand how your design is better braced than Graham's. Could you or someone else explain, because I really fail to see it. I know your designs brace the boxes weakest points, but from what I see, Graham's design braces the weakest points as well as some others. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to know where I went wrong.

Thank You
The design philosophy is to brace the weakest points and to triangulate as much as possible. My dual LMS enclosure design does employ this philosophy, however the drivers are huge and my enclosures don't have much space around them. If you look at my bracing, you can see I triangulate to the center of the back panel, and the side panels are braced straight across with plenty of support throughout. You'd be amazed at the size of those drivers in the enclosure, there isn't much room for any other bracing. In fact, I had to cut up the bracing I had in there and redo it when switching from maelstroms to the LMS drivers, since they wouldn't fit otherwise. You can see here how deep the drivers are compared to the enclosure.

I listed the problems with the other designs posted early. For one, you'd have to build the box around the bracing, it makes assembly not as easy. For two, it's basically a strip of wood run across the panel. That is not adequate bracing. It is not supported by any other pieces. The piece that comes to the center of the brace at an angle is a good idea, however it bends instead of continuing straight to form triangulation and making itself mostly useless.

I drew over the previously mentioned bracing. The areas circled are basically useless. The thin red lines show where you can add more bracing that is actually useful, and the thick red lines show where the failed triangulation is, and how it should be to make things stronger. There's a lot of material there, and it isn't doing much. Also, MDF isn't very good. The only reason to ever use it over plywood is because its cheap.



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post #472 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 12:41 AM
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Polyurethane Construction Adhesive.
Yep. You can attach two 2x4's with PL, and if you try to pull them apart, the would will break before the PL. Best stuff to use when building boxes, especially since it expands to fill any voids, as opposed to shrinking and becoming brittle like some other glues.


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post #473 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 01:15 AM
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I drew over the previous bracing. The areas circled are basically useless. The thin red lines show where you can add more bracing that is actually useful, and the thick red lines show where the failed triangulation is, and how it should be to make things stronger.
Looking good Notnyt. Could it be optimised further by using curves rather than angles? (sorry I dont have your sketchup skills to draw it up) That should distribute the load better. Just like an arch is stronger if it is an even curve. Need some structural engineers to step in here

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post #474 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 01:37 AM
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Looking good Notnyt. Could it be optimised further by using curves rather than angles? (sorry I dont have your sketchup skills to draw it up) That should distribute the load better. Just like an arch is stronger if it is an even curve. Need some structural engineers to step in here

The bracing I drew on in red is not mine. It's also not being used for the reasons listed. Curves are no good here

Anyway, to recap, this is the bracing I designed, relinking pics.









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post #475 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Notnyt,

Is there some kind of a locking mechanism in place with the U shaped pieces and brace ends or are they held in place with adhesive only? If the latter, are you concerned with glue failure after time and use?

Chris


It does lock into place in the middle and the back panel. If there is wood left over on the sheet, I'll see about adding some quick panel braces that run from the middle brace up to the front baffle. That's not really needed with a double baffle and that large of a driver. But if the same box is used for a 12" ported design, it might be.



By the way, I forgot to mention that there's another reason why we didn't want braces going all the way into the corners, I'll share that later once this gets moving.


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post #476 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

The design philosophy is to brace the weakest points and to triangulate as much as possible. My dual LMS enclosure design does employ this philosophy, however the drivers are huge and my enclosures don't have much space around them. If you look at my bracing, you can see I triangulate to the center of the back panel, and the side panels are braced straight across with plenty of support throughout. You'd be amazed at the size of those drivers in the enclosure, there isn't much room for any other bracing. In fact, I had to cut up the bracing I had in there and redo it when switching from maelstroms to the LMS drivers, since they wouldn't fit otherwise. You can see here how deep the drivers are compared to the enclosure.

I listed the problems with the other designs posted early. For one, you'd have to build the box around the bracing, it makes assembly not as easy. For two, it's basically a strip of wood run across the panel. That is not adequate bracing. It is not supported by any other pieces. The piece that comes to the center of the brace at an angle is a good idea, however it bends instead of continuing straight to form triangulation and making itself mostly useless.

I drew over the previously mentioned bracing. The areas circled are basically useless. The thin red lines show where you can add more bracing that is actually useful, and the thick red lines show where the failed triangulation is, and how it should be to make things stronger. There's a lot of material there, and it isn't doing much. Also, MDF isn't very good. The only reason to ever use it over plywood is because its cheap.

Thank you Notnyt for your clear explanation. I noticed those problems also, but those could easily be fixed.

I agree with you assessment on the areas with red lines and BB Ply is much better than MDF, but I'm unsure about the area you circled in red. Eric mentioned in the post above that he'll discuss it after things get resolved and I'm fairly curious what the reason is.

I circled the areas in your design where I think the ply could still flex, essentially the non-corner and non-braced region. Maybe that's not even necessary...? I don't know. But with enough internal pressure, those areas would be the first to flex.
LL
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post #477 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 01:20 PM
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I would like to see a test between your design and mine in the real world.

How about it?

Then we can see what actual plus/minus's there are in real life.
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post #478 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post


Thank you Notnyt for your clear explanation. I noticed those problems also, but those could easily be fixed.

I agree with you assessment on the areas with red lines and BB Ply is much better than MDF, but I'm unsure about the area you circled in red. Eric mentioned in the post above that he'll discuss it after things get resolved and I'm fairly curious what the reason is.

I circled the areas in your design where I think the ply could still flex, essentially the non-corner and non-braced region. Maybe that's not even necessary...? I don't know. But with enough internal pressure, those areas would be the first to flex.

Its close enough to bracing or an edge or a corner it won't matter.


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post #479 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

I would like to see a test between your design and mine in the real world.

How about it?

Then we can see what actual plus/minus's there are in real life.

I don't have anything to prove here. Let me know when you graduate from building boxes out of mdf This stuff has been covered so many times. You might want to address some of the issues in your design that I highlighted.


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post #480 of 777 Old 05-01-2011, 02:21 PM
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Why isn't the brace in the boxes just a piece of wood with a hole cut out in the middle like neo dans design? seems that would be the strongest and easiest solution. I did pretty much the exact design when I had my lms ultras and it works great and very simple.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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